RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (Full Version)

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hlen5 -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 9:39:47 AM)

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I don't want to have an US Dad that worked in a foundry.

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-12-20/news/mn-29964_1_competency



juliaoceania -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 9:41:54 AM)

quote:

Very true that demonising don't help as you say but also it doesn't help for various other members to brand some people they disagree with as racist or whatever.


I would never say that domiguy is racist.... he isn't

But if you think for one moment that the stuff that rule has blathered about isn't, well, we have different ideas of what "racist" means.



juliaoceania -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 10:02:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

presumably?  objective?  you are drowning in a sea of reality looking for saving by miracle, but none shall be forthcoming.



It never ceases to amaze me that people with ideas so outside of what we would call "mainstream" science never post one iota of information to support their preposterous ideas[8|]



Rule -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 10:04:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
First of all, as teakabelle pointed out in her most articulate post on the subject, this is not a "MUSLIM" trait, this is something that happens in the region amongst Hindus as well.

That is like saying that the fish in a sea and those in a lake are identical. It is well established that Muslims and Hindus murder for completely different reasons. Stop asserting that they are the same. The result may be the same, but the cause is not. Thus they are essentially different phenomenas. Stop muddying the water.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
now if you find this helpful in solving the problems women face globally, well we just differ on what we find illuminating, uplifting, and a path towards progressive change. Demonizing people has rarely worked as a way to get them to change.

So go and convert them your way. People are able to change their ways. Animals are not. (That is for you, T., the answer to your question several years ago.)



juliaoceania -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 10:17:56 AM)

An Another view of the term "honor killing" article which discusses all of the things I have brought up here in a context to find solutions, rather than place undo blame



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 1:14:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

Very true that demonising don't help as you say but also it doesn't help for various other members to brand some people they disagree with as racist or whatever.

I would never say that domiguy is racist.... he isn't

But if you think for one moment that the stuff that rule has blathered about isn't, well, we have different ideas of what "racist" means.

Oh I never meant that view with respect to the stuff Rule said but as far as I can see the three or so conspiracy dudes on here are the exception that proves the er... "rule"! [:D]



philosophy -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 3:11:51 PM)

FR

..the problem with any debate on these sort of things is that they inevitably get bogged down in matters of detail and equivilancy. Which culture/religion/people/movement is less/more/thesame as the other?

We lose sight of the most important part of this. Our first reaction. How do things like this make us feel? Do we think its wrong or right? There's nothing ever wrong with expressing the fact of our reaction.

After that, its the old adage 'think global, act local', be informed about the big issues, do what you can at your local level to deal with them.



domiguy -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 4:18:27 PM)

As a lefty I can see how my fellow liberal brethren are repulsed by this thread.

This is not some flippant thread.

I have looked at your arguments and they suck ass.

I don't have time to go through them one by one. There is no comparison to be made between "them" and "us."

You want to compare the priest/Catholic pedophile scandal to honor killings, beheadings, stoning adulterers to death or ballbearing vest suicide bombers?

Really? Really?

What was the ramifications of the Catholic Priest Scandal once it became public knowledge? Public outrage? prison terms served? Millions and millions of dollars paid out in restitution and civil court rewards?

It was big fucking news and dramatic and continuing public outcry.

Where is it in the Middle East? Where are the civilians that should be gathering to stop a public stoning? Where are the police groups that should be infiltrating Muslim Extremist groups and tearing these organizations apart? Why are terrorist groups allowed to prosper within these countries and what is the religious affiliations of the majority of these terrorist groups?

Where was OBL discovered? What group of people kill innocents for burning the koran? What group was responsible for 9-11? What group performs honor killings? What group wears ball bearing suicide vests and explodes them in public areas?

In the US there is a lot of lousy shit that transpires. However, we are not them. Burn the flag...no problem. Burn the bible, more power to you.

It is time for us to understand that there are grave differences and not to be ptronizing as if their shit is some how acceptible...It is not!!!

If we criticize us then we sure as fuck better criticize them.


How many people would have been pissed off if I started this thread, "I do not want to have a Catholic priest as a father?" Shit, fuck, piss, cum covered mother of Mary! there are far more good priest then bad ones....it's understood.

I know that wiki is a shitty site but I am fucking lazy...."The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates that perhaps as many as 5,000 women and girls a year are killed by members of their own families.[2] Many women's groups in the Middle East and Southwest Asia suspect the victims are at least four times more."

This is not some isolated incident...And what is the religion that binds them together?...Hint: It's not Christianity.

Don't defend this shit. I am not saying that all Muslims are shit. Nor do I believe that all Christians are shit.

It is time for the Muslim world to wake up if they want to be taken seriously in a global perspective.

Snap the fuck out of it!








juliaoceania -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 5:05:33 PM)

Some of these things do not take place within a vacuum. We have continually supported bastards like bin Laden and the Taliban when it suits us, and any other two bit dictator who will give us the oil, or keep the commies out. Damn, the United States policy in the region was to keep people backwards and ignorant... makes 'em easier to control after all... I mean we put the Shah of Iran in Persia so we could undermine their moderate democracy... it has happened over and over and over again

There have been huge strides where young people have begun marching all over the Middle East, lets hope there is a beautiful future in store for the region.

As far as India... it is a strange and old culture. Change is slow, but India has been dramatically changing. There are a BILLION people in that country alone. So what would the percentage of honor killings be per capita? Even if it was 20,000, they have 3 1/2 times as many people as we do! We have over 1000 women murdered here a year.


This is from your own article:

Earlier this week, India's Supreme Court recommended the death penalty for perpetrators of honor killings, calling the practice barbaric and feudal.

Does this sound like a country that does not want to take this on? Does this sound like a stamp of approval? It kinda negates your opinion that people there accept this shit as a community, it appears they don't by the very story that you posted.

Yes, I do see an equivalence in this.... for the most part people in this country think that if a woman stays after the first time she is struck she doesn't deserve a damn bit of sympathy. We have a pretty hard-assed view of battered women as a culture, and people STILL don't like to get involved in "domestic issues". I certainly do not see stories about it in the papers because it is "a family matter"

I could go on and on about the topic, but frankly I have said all I can say. Women fear violence all over the world, and that is a pretty sad thing. We have had some pretty barbaric policies ourselves... and it was not that long ago when men owned their wives and their children in this country. We would like to think it is ancient history, but it ain't.



kdsub -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 5:19:33 PM)

You are right domiguy...It irritates me to no end when someone points out an atrocity someone else tries to mitigate it by pointing out other atrocities...as if it makes one damn bit of difference. You are talking about a particular atrocity that there is no argument is particular to radical Islam.

If the posters want to point out atrocities by other religions they should start their own thread but it serves no purpose to the subject of the this thread.

I think philosophy has it right.

Butch



juliaoceania -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 5:29:48 PM)

Edited because it was perhaps a bit unfair...

I shouldn't have written this... perhaps I will go make a new thread



tweakabelle -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 5:40:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

..the problem with any debate on these sort of things is that they inevitably get bogged down in matters of detail and equivilancy. Which culture/religion/people/movement is less/more/thesame as the other?

We lose sight of the most important part of this. Our first reaction. How do things like this make us feel? Do we think its wrong or right? There's nothing ever wrong with expressing the fact of our reaction.

After that, its the old adage 'think global, act local', be informed about the big issues, do what you can at your local level to deal with them.

Thank you for such a positive contribution to this discussion.

It's encouraging to see the passionate reactions of many here. That so many are outraged by these horrors makes dealing with this issue so much easier. That people have interpreted these murders inaccurately as a specifically Muslim matter can be put down to the media, and the spin it puts on these issues. It doesn't necessarily indicate prejudice on their part. So what can we do to exorcise this brutality from our lives?

A good start is to frame the issue correctly and ask the right questions. As violence against women is a worldwide phenomenon, surely it makes sense to view 'honour killings' as a local variation of this phenomenon. At this point, specific local factors like culture, class, economics, religion, caste etc. enter the picture.

Violence against women will occur in your community on a daily basis, no matter where you are. There is no co-relation to age, class, race, intelligence, education or any of the usual indicators. It can express itself in a multitude of ways - rape, domestic violence, threatening behaviour, physical attacks, sexual slavery, intimidation, and so on.

It is almost always carried out by males. Only a small minority of men actually engage in it. Most males, to their credit are sickened and repulsed by violence against women. However males are ideally placed to play a vital role in ridding our societies of this scourge. For a large number of the perpetrators, their violence against women is connected with their twisted ideas of what it means to be a "man". For them, "putting women in their place" means exactly what it says.

Men are ideally placed to deal with this notion. Males can successfully challenge and change other males' skewed ideas of what it means to be a man in ways that others can't. Instead of remaining silent when violence against women comes up, ask the perpetrators "Why do you hate women so much?". Point out that violence is the articulation of hate. Point out that it is not inherent in male biology - hate is an acquired trait, about as unnatural as it gets. Point out it has nothing to do with 'honour' and an awful lot to do with misogyny. Discuss it with your friends. Make violence against women completely unacceptable as part of a person's masculinity in all the social circles you move in.

So there are practical easy steps we can all take to help. Among them:

* Support your local domestic violence centre. It will almost certainly be under-funded, under-resourced and under-staffed. Donate old furniture, computers, money, time, skills .... All it takes is a phone call or email to ask; "How can I help?";
* Challenge male violence against women whenever and where ever you encounter it. Speak out against it loudly and often;
* Encourage any one you know with issues in this area to get help;
* Demand action from your politicians and community leaders;
* Read a book or two about the issue. Inform yourself and understand.

Please convert your passion and anger about this horror into action of some sort. The best response to 'honour killings' is to eliminate violence against women in your community. Prove to the world that it is not inherent in maleness or in the natural order of things. Show the world it can be eliminated.

There is something you can do about this horrifying brutality - in fact, many things. However only you can do them and they can all be done NOW.



juliaoceania -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 5:49:08 PM)

True tweakabelle....

I wanted to add one thing, perhaps ours is a female perspective. I went through the thread and those who think of violence against women as a general human global problem tend to be women... those who think that it is a Muslim problem tended to be male.




SilverMark -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 5:53:13 PM)

Gives domi a one man ovation....it is so rare for you to be serious, I kept waiting for the punchline.

There is no humor in the topic.



Lucylastic -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 5:53:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

True tweakabelle....

I wanted to add one thing, perhaps ours is a female perspective. I went through the thread and those who think of violence against women as a general human global problem tend to be women... those who think that it is a Muslim problem tended to be male.



I agree Julia.
I also applaud Tweaks advice, get involved make a difference, educate yourself THEN others



tweakabelle -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 6:28:41 PM)

quote:

Domiguy
I know that wiki is a shitty site but I am fucking lazy...."The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates that perhaps as many as 5,000 women and girls a year are killed by members of their own families.[2] Many women's groups in the Middle East and Southwest Asia suspect the victims are at least four times more."

This is not some isolated incident...And what is the religion that binds them together?...Hint: It's not Christianity.


Answer: It is NOT any ONE religion that binds all 'honour killings' together. These horrors are practised by members of several religions - Islam, Hindu and Sikhs specifically.

Nor are they specific to any one region. They occur from India west to North Africa, from Sri Lanka north to Russia. They occur across many religions and many cultures.

I appreciate your outrage at these terrifying practices. Please don't let your anger blind you to the facts.

For as long as you direct your thinking on the issues at a single religion, any solution(s) you propose will be ineffective. If we were to succeed in eliminating ALL 'honour killings' in ALL Muslim cultures, would that solve the problem? Sorry but the answer is negative.

For as long as you insist that violence against women in our (Western) culture(s) is not part of the same phenomenon, any solution(s) you propose will be ineffective. Because the appalling levels of brutality rape and other violence against women in the West will remain unaddressed.

quote:

Don't defend this shit. I am not saying that all Muslims are shit. Nor do I believe that all Christians are shit.


No one is trying "to defend this shit". Some of us are trying to address "this shit" realistically, by identifying the real problem and working out how it can be dealt with effectively, successfully.

We are dealing with feudal, medieval tribal societies. For example, Afghanistan has 73% illiteracy. How on earth do you expect people unable to read or write to absorb values as alien to them as sharia law is to us?

It has taken the West thousands of years to free itself from the yoke of religious imprisonment and initiate equality for women. And we still have an awful long long way to go before equality is fully achieved. We cannot realistically demand that it is achieved overnight elsewhere. No one would like to see it happen more dearly than I - but it's not going to happen in my lifetime.

Please realise you are demanding change of an alien revolutionary nature be imposed on these people. They won't accept it any more than you or I would accept foreigners imposing sharia law on us in the West. If you wish to succeed in your goals, (and they are goals I share) then the need to think this matter through and devise potentially successful strategies is paramount.

It might make a person feel good to go in with all guns blazing in a burst of righteous glory - but, in the end, it won't change a damn thing except the death statistics. There are practical ways we can address the issue of violence against women. Please please think about them.




FirmhandKY -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 7:08:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Thank you juliaoceania for pointing out a simple fact that makes the OP look as ridiculous as it is.

All the OP says is:
quote:

The fuckers are crazy.


Myself I have argued in my post 83:
quote:

In Islamic culture these women are not self serving lunatics, but sane, normal people who behaved honorably.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
To claim or imply that so-called 'honour killings' are a monopoly of any one religion is absurd.

Who made or implied any such assertion?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The obnoxious 'honour killings' are carried out in the main by Hindus. Common reasons include marriage outside of caste, or insufficient dowry payments. Caste is an almost exclusively Hindu phenomenon. Sikhs also engage in the practice (of 'honour killings') and wiki tells us that the worst levels of honour killings are in the Punjab, where Sikhs are concentrated. (The Punjab also has large populations of Hindus and Muslims)

This thread is not about Hindus nor Sikhs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Julia's point - that we need to understand such barbaric practices in the light of the prevailing local culture - is pertinent. Failure to do this ensures efforts will fail due to failure to identify the correct targets and solutions.

Honor murders have various causes, depending on population characteristics. By dragging all of these populations into one bag of honor murders, you are obfuscating the specific cause of each culturally determined and institutionalized practice of honor murders. The variant under discussion in this thread is honor murders as committed by Muslims.

If you want to discuss honor murders as committed by Sikhs, then start a thread with that subject.

If you want to discuss honor murders as committed by Hindus, then start a thread with that subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If we want to stop such barbarism, it's best to understand it first so that effort can be directed productively at the correct target(s). Using it as an excuse to incite Islamophobia, as the OP does, is an insult to the memory of the many thousands of non-Muslim victims.

I do not see any Islamophobia in the OP. The opening poster observed a reprehensible practice that is endemic in most of the Islamic populations. Thanks to him noticing that practice it can be addressed and discussed and perchance ended. If he had failed to alert people it would never have been addressed and discussed let alone be ended as a possible result of the discussion.

Thus, on the contrary, by accusing the opening poster of Islamophobia, you are thwarting the addressing and discussion of this reprehensible practice and therefore become yourself an accomplice in all past, present and future such murders.


Ok, I don't talk to Rule very often, because I don't consider myself a "supergenius", and sometimes he goes off the deep-end (to tweak a few noses, I suspect), but I've got to say that this is about the most accurate summation of the thread and the topic I've read here.

Atta boy, Rule.

Firm



juliaoceania -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 7:14:40 PM)

Again, another man weighs in on the subject.....

Not saying that just because you are a man you are wrong, not saying that at all... but I truly believe that women see this issue much differently because, well, we are women, and if we haven't been privy to abuse just because we are women, we know others who have been. Maybe we see this differently because violence against women is common place from our view. We see it with our friends, our sisters, our daughters, and even ourselves... so, like I said, it is easy to project that it is a problem "over there" because you aren't "in here" (the "in here" being the body of a woman).

And I am far from insinuating that all women feel the same way as I do, just as not all men on this thread agree with you, either



thishereboi -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 7:25:06 PM)

quote:

Considering that the plenty of women on the boards do not jump in to support you, it seems reasonable to suppose that they are scared of you.


It may seem reasonable to you that people would fear a stranger on the internet, but I am finding that hard to swallow. Just what do you think they are afraid she is going to do to them?



juliaoceania -> RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. (5/16/2011 7:27:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

Considering that the plenty of women on the boards do not jump in to support you, it seems reasonable to suppose that they are scared of you.


It may seem reasonable to you that people would fear a stranger on the internet, but I am finding that hard to swallow. Just what do you think they are afraid she is going to do to them?



You know, I am just an irrational submissive, what could I do to anyone with my submissive nature[8|]



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