RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 12:58:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Science intrigues me.... especially when its medically based. But, frankly, many are treating science as the new religion, never to be questioned, always right, always superior... exactly the same thing they argue against.


Science is always questioned by the scientists themselves.

But faith can't be questioned because, well...........you just have to have faith in something that you have no proof of.



Is it? I mean how long did it take them to actually discount the vaccine/autism theory and yank that idiots license?

Science isnt perfect, I wish they would quit pretending they are the definitive answer.

Faith isnt perfect, I wish they would quit pretending they were the definitive answer.

You know what they say... two sides to every story,, the truth lies somewhere in between.




Real0ne -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 2:41:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
I have my own theories so I dont know what that is.

Yet you think you're capable of discussing abstract physics with people who at least have a vague clue what they're talking about?
How cute.


what the hell is abstract physics?  Imaginary physics from fantsy island and teenage ninja turtles in universe number 36?  LMAO

You condemn anyone that thinks for themselves rather than rely on your social programming?  Like I said I have my own theories based on my own knowledge and they are frankly as valid as anyone elses.  Regardless of your obviously limited resources.




mnottertail -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 2:45:15 PM)

since you at least admit you are uneducated in this area perhaps you should be seen and not heard.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/d6wh7v0214068171/




Real0ne -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 2:51:09 PM)

"The analysis stops short, in each case, of considering field theories."

you see my statement was not intended to convey I know nothing about it but to convey its for th emost part bullshit.






willbeurdaddy -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 3:54:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Is it? I mean how long did it take them to actually discount the vaccine/autism theory and yank that idiots license?

Science isnt perfect, I wish they would quit pretending they are the definitive answer.




Interesting sentences taken together. "Science isnt perfect". A scientific (and therefore imperfect)study of Wakefields results disputed them. But in your mind the link is satisfactorily resolved and Wakefield is an idiot.

You dont get to play both ends. And FYI it has not been firmly established that there isnt a link, and there are numerous ongoing studies still investigating it.




tazzygirl -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 3:55:20 PM)

THAT specific theory has been discounted. I never said there werent others.

But, since you are all knowing, a link would be nice. :D

I have yet to see any other reports or studies linking, or trying to link, the two.

However, as far as refuting the link....

Doctors say the latest study adds to existing evidence refuting a link between thimerosal exposure and autism risk and should reassure parents that the disorder is not caused by vaccinations. If there was a risk, they said, autism rates should have dropped between 2004 and 2007.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22542677/




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 3:58:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

THAT specific theory has been discounted. I never said there werent others.


If you mean that specific STUDY has been discounted, yes, it was, by another potentially "imperfect" study.

The THEORY (that there is a link between vaccines and autism) is still being studied, so obviously the THEORY has not been adequately discounted in many scientist's minds.

Yes there are other theories too, you are just wrong about the THEORY you raised.




tazzygirl -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 4:00:43 PM)

See the edit, then refute that with something besides your opinion.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 4:31:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

See the edit, then refute that with something besides your opinion.


Read WebMD. Several studies are cited.




Real0ne -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 5:20:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

"The analysis stops short, in each case, of considering field theories."

you see my statement was not intended to convey I know nothing about it but to convey its for th emost part bullshit.





correct that to read: part its bullshit




Aneirin -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 6:26:51 PM)

Now I do understand that a lot of males do not go on about feeling, perhaps because they think it is not manly to do so, but I do and that because although I thrive on logic, I understand there is the illogical, which I attribute to feeling, which makes me wonder if the truth we seek is the ability to feel as opposed to the ability to think.




Real0ne -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 7:20:05 PM)

The world needs both to survive. One tempers the other.
Most law you will find are derivatives of feelings/morals at the root.
Thou shalt not murder etc. as an example.
Now when you take it to commercial and king/state made law that flourishes today is where things get really skewed twisted and fucked up.







tazzygirl -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 8:48:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

See the edit, then refute that with something besides your opinion.


Read WebMD. Several studies are cited.




No Ill Effects When Kids Get Vaccines on Time
Study: On-Time Vaccination Doesn't Have Negative Impact on Development

May 24, 2010

Do vaccines cause autism?

The answer is NO.

This question has vexed parents since it was first raised over a decade ago. After all, we suspect there is some trigger of autism in genetically susceptible kids, but no one knows what that trigger might be.

Additionally, some parents noticed the autistic symptoms following immunizations. In such cases, it's hard not to assume the vaccines (or some additive in the vaccines) were responsible for the symptoms.

This was a reasonable hypothesis, but it turns out that subsequent research has debunked it. For example,

Large studies in Scandinavia (where they keep exhaustive records) demonstrated no association at all with administration of vaccines and the onset of autism.

Despite the elimination of one worrisome additive (thimerosal) from almost all vaccines, the incidence of autism continues to climb.

In 2010, the British medical journal The Lancet retracted the paper linking the MMR vaccine to autism, due to the fact that the researchers falsified their data.

Alas, we don't know what might trigger autism, but it doesn't look like immunizations are the culprit. Rather, it's very likely a coincidence: Autism symptoms generally emerge in the second year, and since there are so many immunizations given at that time, the symptoms may show up in close proximity to an immunization.

The research in this area continues, so keep your eyes open. But all scientific data points against this fear being a reality.

Bottom line : Don't let the fear of autism prevent you from fully immunizing your child!


http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/childrens-vaccines-faq?page=2



Experts have not yet identified a way to prevent autism. Public concern over stories linking autism and childhood vaccines has persisted. But numerous studies have failed to show any evidence of a link between autism and the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine.6, 7 If you avoid having your children immunized, you put them and others in your community at risk for developing serious diseases, which can cause serious harm or even death.

Last Updated: May 19, 2008


http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/autism-treatment-overview

I read it quite frequently.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/20/2011 9:48:53 PM)

Funny how your research skills screech to a halt when they find something that you dont like.

Sue Swedo, MD, chief of the pediatric and developmental neuropsychiatry branch of the National Institute of Mental Health, says federal researchers have not closed the door to looking at whether vaccination might, in rare cases, be linked to autism.

The strongest case for a link comes from children with regressive autism -- children who seem to be developing normally, but who then lose the social and language skills they had developed and slide into autism. To parents, such children seem to have been the victims of some environmental toxin. As this regression occurs at the same time children receive multiple vaccines, many wonder whether vaccines might carry such a toxin.

"Our studies of regressive autism are taking a very shotgun approach to environmental factors in autism," Swedo tells WebMD. "We are saying we don't really know right now whether such factors might be involved."

The Childhood Autism Risks From Genetics and the Environment (CHARGE) study is under way at the University of California, Davis. Funded by the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and enrolling more than 600 families with autism, this study is looking at the interplay between genetic and a wide range of environmental factors in autism. Vaccines are one of the many environmental factors being analyzed.

In addition, the CDC's Centers for Autism and Developmental Disabilities Research and Epidemiology network (CADDRE) is collecting data on environmental risk factors, including vaccines, that might put children at risk of autism.

Using the same environmental-factor checklist as CHARGE and CADDRE, the NIMH is looking at differences between children with regressive autism and children with more classic forms of autism.

"We are looking at differences in environmental exposures, including vaccines but also including things like older brothers who had a cold and mothers who drank a lot of diet soda during pregnancy," Swedo says.

The CDC and the NIH are also performing epidemiologic studies in Norway and Denmark to expand previous research into whether vaccinated children have any more autism than unvaccinated children


And odd that you claimed you couldnt find anything about current studies at all, before you missed the above webmd article.

This is the first hit on google:

US support for vaccine/autism studies

You graduated cum laude from the KenDoll School of Intellectual Dishonesty





tazzygirl -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/21/2011 12:03:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Funny how your research skills screech to a halt when they find something that you dont like.

Sue Swedo, MD, chief of the pediatric and developmental neuropsychiatry branch of the National Institute of Mental Health, says federal researchers have not closed the door to looking at whether vaccination might, in rare cases, be linked to autism.

The strongest case for a link comes from children with regressive autism -- children who seem to be developing normally, but who then lose the social and language skills they had developed and slide into autism. To parents, such children seem to have been the victims of some environmental toxin. As this regression occurs at the same time children receive multiple vaccines, many wonder whether vaccines might carry such a toxin.

"Our studies of regressive autism are taking a very shotgun approach to environmental factors in autism," Swedo tells WebMD. "We are saying we don't really know right now whether such factors might be involved."

The Childhood Autism Risks From Genetics and the Environment (CHARGE) study is under way at the University of California, Davis. Funded by the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and enrolling more than 600 families with autism, this study is looking at the interplay between genetic and a wide range of environmental factors in autism. Vaccines are one of the many environmental factors being analyzed.

In addition, the CDC's Centers for Autism and Developmental Disabilities Research and Epidemiology network (CADDRE) is collecting data on environmental risk factors, including vaccines, that might put children at risk of autism.

Using the same environmental-factor checklist as CHARGE and CADDRE, the NIMH is looking at differences between children with regressive autism and children with more classic forms of autism.

"We are looking at differences in environmental exposures, including vaccines but also including things like older brothers who had a cold and mothers who drank a lot of diet soda during pregnancy," Swedo says.

The CDC and the NIH are also performing epidemiologic studies in Norway and Denmark to expand previous research into whether vaccinated children have any more autism than unvaccinated children


And odd that you claimed you couldnt find anything about current studies at all, before you missed the above webmd article.

This is the first hit on google:

US support for vaccine/autism studies

You graduated cum laude from the KenDoll School of Intellectual Dishonesty




Better than the school of believing anything you wish, willbe... I heard you got high honors there! Congrats!

As far as your link goes.. one.. its not WebMD... I doubt you can even get into that site.

Second, you need to check your dates, all those research studies and recommendations were started as early as 2005...

Of note, the Committee receives many public comments that reflect concerns about vaccines as a potential environmental factor in autism. Some members of the public are convinced that the current data are sufficient to demonstrate that vaccines do not play a causal role in autism and argue against using limited autism research funds to do additional vaccine studies when many other scientific avenues remain to be explored. At the same time, those who believe that prior studies of the possible role of vaccines in ASD have been insufficient argue that investigation of a possible vaccine/ASD link should be a high priority for research (e.g., a large-scale study comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated groups). A third view urges shifting focus away from vaccines and onto much-needed attention toward the development of effective treatments, services, and supports for those with ASD.

Long-Term Objectives
Note: Dates that appear next to the objectives indicate the year that the objective was added to the Strategic Plan. If the objective was revised in subsequent editions of the Plan, the revision date is also noted.

2009 A. Conduct a multi-site study of the subsequent pregnancies of 1,000 women with a child with ASD to assess the impact of environmental factors in a period most relevant to the progression of ASD by 2014. IACC Recommended Budget: $11,100,000 over 5 years.
2009 B. Identify genetic risk factors in at least 50% of people with ASD by 2014. IACC Recommended Budget: $33,900,000 over 6 years.
2009 C. Determine the effect of at least five environmental factors on the risk for subtypes of ASD in the prenatal and early postnatal period of development by 2015. IACC Recommended Budget: $25,100,000 over 7 years.
2009 D. Support ancillary studies within one or more large-scale, population-based surveillance and epidemiological studies, including U.S. populations, to collect data on environmental factors during preconception, and during prenatal and early postnatal development, as well as genetic data, that could be pooled (as needed) to analyze targets for potential gene/environment interactions by 2015. IACC Recommended Budget: $44,400,000 over 5 years.


http://iacc.hhs.gov/strategic-plan/2011/caused_prevented.shtml

A further read would have told you that this study isnt limited to vaccines but to all areas, including disease processes, family history, evironmental factors and genetic mutations. And that it began before that idiot had his license pulled.

At the request of CDC, the National Vaccine Advisory Committee (NVAC) Vaccine Safety
Working Group advised on the content and priorities of the Agenda. CDC finalized the Agenda
and responded to NVAC feedback. The NVAC Vaccine Safety Working Group reviewed the
Agenda and made 32 recommendations in three categories: general, capacity, and research needs
recommendations. The prioritization criteria included significance of the exposure to a vaccine,
prevalence of the adverse health event following immunization, public concern, scientific
concern and degree to which further study is warranted, impact on policy, and feasibility of the
study. A summary of the NVAC recommendations is included in Appendix C: Summary of
NVAC Recommendations. The NVAC recommendations to the Agenda were approved by the
Assistant Secretary for Health of the US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) and
sent to CDC on July 29, 2009 (NVAC, 2009).


http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/00_pdf/ISO-Final-Scientific_Agenda-Nov-10.pdf

The Committee to Review Adverse Effects of Vaccines met for the first time on April 20-21, 2009. At the
open session, staff from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP), which is operated
out of the Health Resources and Services Administration, presented a working list of adverse events
associated with the four vaccines under review by the Committee.



http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Research/VaccineAdvEffectReview/Working-List-of-AEs-January-10.pdf

Again, 2009.

Why is that year important?

In a statement explaining its retraction of Wakefield's paper, the Lancet said: "Following the judgment of the U.K. General Medical Council's Fitness to Practice Panel on Jan. 28, 2010, it has become clear that several elements of the 1998 paper by Wakefield et al are incorrect ... in particular, the claims in the original paper that children were 'consecutively referred' and that investigations were 'approved' by the local ethics committee have been proven to be false. Therefore we fully retract this paper from the published record."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/AutismNews/lancet-retracts-controversial-autism-paper/story?id=9730805

Supreme Court bars lawsuits over side effects from children's vaccines
The Supreme Court upholds a federal law that offers compensation to victims while shielding vaccine makers from lawsuits by parents.
February 23, 2011|By David G. Savage, Los Angeles Times
The Supreme Court has shielded the nation's vaccine makers from being sued by parents who say their children suffered severe side effects from these drugs.

By a 6-2 vote, the court instead upheld a federal law that offers compensation to these victims but also closes the courthouse door to lawsuits.


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/23/business/la-fi-court-vaccine-20110223

And, now to the crux of the issue... why...

Autism is not specifically listed in the VICP's Vaccine Injury Table. That means that all claims that vaccines caused autism must be taken to the Special Masters. Each claimant must prove that vaccination was the likely cause of his or her autism.

As of May 2008, there had been 5,365 autism injury claims with 5,007 still awaiting a decision. Since each and every claim must prove the vaccine was the likely cause of autism, the sheer volume of the cases threatened to overwhelm the court.

So in 2002, the Special Master's office made a deal with lawyers on both sides. Instead of thousands of hearings to determine whether vaccination can be a cause of autism, there would be just three, with three test cases in each hearing.

These hearings are called the Omnibus Autism Proceedings.


The government was about to pay out massive claims

The Omnibus Autism Proceedings will be the final test for three somewhat different theories about how vaccines might cause autism:

The first "theory of causation" is that measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccines and vaccines containing thimerosal (a mercury-based preservative) can combine to cause autism.
The second theory is that thimerosal-containing vaccines can cause autism.
The third theory is that MMR vaccines, without regard to thimerosal, can cause autism.


http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/features/faq-vaccine-court-hears-autism-cases?page=4

Follow the money trail, willbe.

The VICP covers all vaccines listed on the Vaccine Injury Table maintained by the Secretary of Health and Human Services; in 2007 the list included vaccines against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), measles, mumps, rubella (German measles), polio, hepatitis B, varicella (chicken pox), Haemophilus influenzae type b, rotavirus, and pneumonia.[5] From 1988 until 2008-01-08, 5,263 claims relating to autism, and 2,865 non-autism claims, were made to the VICP. 925 of these claims, one autism-related (see Previous Rulings), were compensated, with 1,158 non-autism and 350 autism claims dismissed; awards (including attorney's fees) totaled $847 million.[6] The VICP also applies to claims for injuries suffered before 1988; there were 4,264 of these claims of which 1,189 were compensated with awards totaling $903 million.[6]

903 million dollars... thats alot of money... more than the 70 million for the studies you cited.

With the commencement of hearings in the case of Cedillo v. Secretary of Health and Human Services (Case #98-916V), the battle over vaccine injuries moved into the courts. A panel of three special masters began hearing the first cases of the historic Omnibus Autism Proceedings in June 2007. The lead petitioners, the parents of Michelle Cedillo, claimed that Michelle's autism was caused by a vaccine. Theresa and Michael Cedillo contended that thiomersal seriously weakened Michelle's immune system and prevented her body from clearing the measles virus after her vaccination at the age of fifteen months. At the outset Special Master George Hastings, Jr. said "Clearly the story of Michelle's life is a tragic one,"[16] while pledging to listen carefully to the evidence. On February 12, 2009, the court ruled in three test cases that the combination of the MMR vaccine and thiomersal-containing vaccines were not to blame for autism. Hastings concluded in his decision, "Unfortunately, the Cedillos have been misled by physicians who are guilty, in my view, of gross medical misjudgment."[17] The ruling has been appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals.[18]

On March 13, 2010, the court ruled in three test cases that thiomersal-containing vaccines do not cause autism. The test cases were among the strongest for this theory. Special Master Hastings concluded, "The overall weight of the evidence is overwhelmingly contrary to the petitioners' causation theories."[18]

[edit]Current proceedings

Currently, nearly 5,000 families are attempting to demonstrate that vaccines can cause autism, despite the medical and scientific consensus that there is no evidence that autism is caused by vaccines or any preservative or additive ever used in vaccines.[2][19]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Autism_Proceeding

Follow the money trail to see why those studies were recommended BEFORE the Lancet made its retraction.




bighappygoth39 -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/21/2011 9:45:56 AM)

So people who are complaining about scientists being close minded and ignoring anything they can't quantify are parroting that daft conspiracy theory drivel abouyt vaccines causing autism again.
That's going to encourage people to take anything you have to say about this seriously, isn't it boys?




Real0ne -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/21/2011 4:37:24 PM)

taz

so you are now claiming that mercury does not cause autism huh?  Are you uninformed or simply throwing trash at the wall hoping it will stick?  Why hasnt anyone else caught this?  Who was it phisor or abbot that sold the bad mercury laden injections to africa?  In fact I think they still use mercury in some injections as a solvent.

courts rule on facts and facts once upon a time was considered truth but it no longer applies.

most cases are won and lost as a matter of performance rather than the merits and substance.

It appears your cite does not even go to the merits of the core issue.









tazzygirl -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/21/2011 4:43:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

taz

so you are now claiming that mercury does not cause autism huh?  Are you uninformed or simply throwing trash at the wall hoping it will stick?  Why hasnt anyone else caught this?  Who was it phisor or abbot that sold the bad mercury laden injections to africa?  In fact I think they still use mercury in some injections as a solvent.


Mind showing me where I said that?




Real0ne -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/21/2011 4:45:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

taz

so you are now claiming that mercury does not cause autism huh?  Are you uninformed or simply throwing trash at the wall hoping it will stick?  Why hasnt anyone else caught this?  Who was it phisor or abbot that sold the bad mercury laden injections to africa?  In fact I think they still use mercury in some injections as a solvent.


Mind showing me where I said that?


is that not the "gist" of your position




tazzygirl -> RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy story (5/21/2011 4:47:30 PM)

Not at all.




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