quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Employment isn't a right, I'd go so far as to say most social safety nets aren't either, the exception being in the case of kids, and the severely disabled.

Here's the thing, I've never accepted any form of public assistance in my adult life, ever. At one point I was so broke I was living off of two .99 cent hardees hamburgers and sleeping on a concrete floor, with no idea how I would get out of that situation. It never even occurred to me to go steal from others because I fucked up.

You know what that was probably the best thing really, as all I had was an internet connection, and fear of poverty to get me out of that situation.

Well, now, I'm making more than most do, and somehow I'm supposed to feel for people, that think the solution is handouts, give me a break, until you are sleeping on a concrete floor for months, live off less than 10 dollars a day for months and months, and others around have completely given up hope, and you still are trying. Well, I don't think you know the meaning of "trying".

So, now, yeah, I'm supposed to feel for people, that have more resources, support, and means than I did back then, and give them money?

I mean seriously, I learned from the internet, I figured it out, I spent 12 hours a day staring at computer screen figuring it out, I didn't sit on a comfy couch complaining the world owes me a paycheck, while watching Jerry Springer, or bitching that some factory was not hiring.

Give me a break.

Newsflash: Every single person that is of sound mind and average intelligence can be employed for yourself....
Startup Costs: 10.00 Dollars, and an internet connection.

Whatever, It sickens me that people lack REAL confidence in themselves and determination, that the only solution is either welfare, or employment via some corp. It really blows my mind when Computer Science Graduates complain they can't find work. LOL. Yeah, you can't find work, because you want someone to pay you to sit doing very little, apparently.


Anyway, I guarantee I make more than 80-90% of the people up here, and I guarantee you back then, I made less than 90%+ of the people up here, and during that whole time I didn't go on welfare, I didn't take. I didn't bitch about those doing well. Hell, I even helped my lazy friend that was given 80K to start a "business" for virtually nothing, and guess what, HE WENT BROKE, because you can't give something to someone, that doesn't know or appreciate it's worth, and won't put in the time to "LEARN".

Life is a series of choices people, you fuck up, you suffer, you do well, you get rewarded, you make others pay for your mistakes, you are a thief.

So, fuck no people don't deserve to be employed, because every single healthy person can be employed already. You can show up at this trash company my friends kid got hired at and they will hire anyone, but the work sucks, it's hard, and almost everyone quits, but you can work. You can learn. The internet is still growing by leaps and bounds, there are billions sloshing around up there, and it just requires learning. Oh, that's it, people don't want to learn, they want to be told, and given a 100% guaranteed plan of action.

Yeah, this whole notion of guarantees on the backs of others just makes me want to puke, literally vomit.

If you are unemployed long term, there is something wrong with YOU!!!!!, that's the cold hard fact.

I have far to many real life examples of "real" people to believe otherwise, the whiny babies of the world will always fail eventually, because they don't know how to make money, or why something makes money, they don't want to learn either, or be creative. They want to be told "EVERYTHING", like a robot, as if anyone is going to give you step by step instructions for anything that is worth knowing in life. The expectation that one can be a non-thinking, non-creative drone like creature, and make a good living is perverse.

The only security in life comes from you, and that is the knowledge that you are capable of dealing with uncertainty.

I'm going to stop now, I could give myself carpal tunnel before I got through this topic thoroughly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The worst thing about the long term unemployed is their demographic...

They are often men over the age of 50, which means they are not eligible for social security, a little old to be training for a new career, and are often the victim of age discrimination. MickyDs isn't going to hire these men. They are often over qualified for any sort of joe-job that they try for, and there is usually some young hungry person who they are going against to land these jobs.

For many of these men, it means living off the savings they had for their retirement and selling off assets, leaving them with little for when they actually DO reach old age they will not be able to retire because they used it all up.

Here is the deal, if we as a society are going to end social security, or extend the age under which people can collect it, we need to make some very harsh age discrimination laws. It just isn't right that we postpone the age of retirement and then allow employers to discriminate based upon an applicants age.

Thank you julia, I certainly agree.
My ex is a computer network engineer and he was able to get a job after about 8 months.
He was on the brink of losing his home, he wasn't getting quality medical care {he is diabetic, and has a history of nerve damage in his neck area}, and it was very sad.
He is 48, I guess he is lucky he wasn't also a victim of age discrimination.

Oh, so he owns a house. Well, he could have rented out the rooms so he could have stretched the $ he had and was getting and he would have been in much better shape.

Or you could have let him move in with you.

I agree with Hannah on employment being a right and the govt owing everyone a job. The govt simply doesnt have that kind of $.

Actually tj, he WAS renting out rooms to 2 different people.
I DID loan him money and even bought him food.

Move in with me? Didn't I say EX-HUSBAND????

Don't you think most people that are unemployed are getting help or living with friends and family?
Is that the long term solution or the answer?
Also, I never stated that the government should "owe" us a job, I asked if having a job is a right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mynxkat

Far as it goes, no, I don't believe people have a 'right' to really much of anything. All the so called 'rights' people have are pretty fictions made up by other people.

When it comes to employment, there IS a problem. I'm nearly 40 and unemployed. This is not because of any laziness or unwillingness on my part. I'd be more than happy to flip burgers at McD's, but I'm too old. McD's wants to employ high school kids. Pretty much ANY fast food place employs very nearly exclusively high school kids (with a few, a VERY few exceptions and those tend to be the managers). So, there's an entire branch of businesses that I'd be more than willing to work for, and in fact apply at every month or so that won't hire me because I'm too old.

There are entire branches of industry that I'm not qualified to work for. I'm not a health care anything, nor an accountant, or construction engineer... the list goes on. I'm perfectly willing and even able to learn these things, but since I've not spent 3 or 4 or 5 years getting a magical piece of paper saying I'm an expert, they aren't willing to teach me. And since I can't find a job, I can't afford to go to school to GET that magical piece of paper so they'd give me a job.... And for those that want to talk about scholorships and grants and all... I'm unmarried, no children, and caucasian. That pretty much shuts 90% or more of the possible doors in my face. Maybe I ought to dye my skin and hair and try to pass as African American.

Now, for the fields I am qualified for (quite a few things, in fact, I've led a rather eclectic life), again, I apply for every position I even SUSPECT is available or that will be available soon. Here again, though, my age is against me. That, and I've been out of work for nearly a year. There must be something wrong with me if no one has hired me in almost a year!

For the few truly 'unskilled' fields of employment... just TRY getting employed in one of those if you don't have swarthy skin and speak Mexican fluently...

So, while I don't feel that anyone has the 'right' to work, I do feel that we (Americans I mean) need to take a good close look at our industry infrastructure and do some MAJOR repairs on it, maybe even scrap the whole thing and start from scratch, because right now it's broken.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I would love an economy that was capable of creating the kinds of jobs that were prevalent in the sixties and seventies.We don't have it.

Part of the ultimate solution IMO would have been for housing prices to drop to the point where jobs didn't need to be high paid. TARP prevented that by propping up RE prices and preventing a major devaluation.

We DO have employment for all.  Anyone at their option can start up a sole prop relatively easily.  I've had two business fail under me though... making a business successful is much harder than starting it.  As opposed to pushing getting jobs, I'd like to see efforts to making starting a business more attractive.

Steven, I TOTALLY agree with making housing prices more affordable, and also making the price of apartments more affordable.
Even with all the foreclosures on the market, it is hardly easy to obtain a loan these days.

In major metropolitan area's such as the Washington D.C. area, homes and apartments are still very expensive.

In Northern Virginia, there are many people who are employed that live in shelters because they can not afford an apartment, much less a home.
Especially, if you prefer to live somewhere a bit safe.

Homeless problem in Northern Virginia

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Why not kill two birds with one stone?   There is a vast amount of decent Federally owned land out there... why not offer unemployed volunteers an opportunity to earn "40 acres and a mule" by banding together with other skilled and willing-to-work people to create entirely new communities for people to live?

For example, in exchange for 40 hours a week of your professional services, you can earn a set amount of land with a new home... complete with a 10 year moratorium on personal and property tax... and credit that can be used to purchase needed items such as food, if you volunteer to use your skills to band with others in building homes and infrastructure on Federal land set aside for new communities.

It would take some planning, and people would have to agree to the hardships while the infrastructure was built.  The land would be donated by the Federal government.  It would take money for materials, but I suspect it would be less that what is doled out in cold, hard cash for unemployment.  The money spent on materials might also stimulate other areas of the economy.

People would have to volunteer and apply for the program, of course.  They might have to prove that they have needed skills to contribute... it wouldn't work if everyone had landscaping skills and no one knew how to do electrical wiring.

Eh... might work, might not.   But it seems a damn sight better idea than sitting around talking about how to make companies hire more people, or how to afford more people living on unemployment payments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

julia, you got mail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Habitat for Humanity does that sort of thing now, the land and house isnt free but it is much more affordable.

There are a few small towns that will sell a building lot for as little as $1 but of course, not many people want to live in places like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Habitat for Humanity does that sort of thing now, the land and house isnt free but it is much more affordable.

There are a few small towns that will sell a building lot for as little as $1 but of course, not many people want to live in places like that.

Different sort of program entirely.

I'm not talking about applying for one of a relatively few cheap houses on a tiny lot in an older part of town because you're needy.  I'm talking about exchanging your professional services in payment for a home with acreage in what was once a national park, that is destined to be part of a brand new community of thousands of new homes with acreage... all brand new and as well developed as the skilled labor is able to make it.

Essentially, it would be taking the adage, "you can give a man a fish and he eats today... teach him to fish and he can feed himself for a lifetime" and applying it to the home level.

quote:

Hell, I knew Hannah was an Anarchist after her first 10 posts. And I really enjoy reading her posts; she very much reminds me of someone I used to know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Why not kill two birds with one stone?   There is a vast amount of decent Federally owned land out there... why not offer unemployed volunteers an opportunity to earn "40 acres and a mule" by banding together with other skilled and willing-to-work people to create entirely new communities for people to live?

For example, in exchange for 40 hours a week of your professional services, you can earn a set amount of land with a new home... complete with a 10 year moratorium on personal and property tax... and credit that can be used to purchase needed items such as food, if you volunteer to use your skills to band with others in building homes and infrastructure on Federal land set aside for new communities.

It would take some planning, and people would have to agree to the hardships while the infrastructure was built.  The land would be donated by the Federal government.  It would take money for materials, but I suspect it would be less that what is doled out in cold, hard cash for unemployment.  The money spent on materials might also stimulate other areas of the economy.

People would have to volunteer and apply for the program, of course.  They might have to prove that they have needed skills to contribute... it wouldn't work if everyone had landscaping skills and no one knew how to do electrical wiring.

Eh... might work, might not.   But it seems a damn sight better idea than sitting around talking about how to make companies hire more people, or how to afford more people living on unemployment payments.

Great post Treasure!
I like the idea of 40 acres and a mule!

Maybe some sort of mass organic type farming!

quote:

Yeah, brilliant. Except most land like that is vacant for a reason. It's caliche, or clay, or all rock, and can't be farmed. It's not near any water. It's out in the middle of fucking nowhere.

Not to mention the fact that even if such a project were viable, land that is held in trust for all of us will be given up to some developer who has political connections so he can make even more money. I'm not willing to trade my national birthright so some stupid cocksucker like Trump can come in and built another Levittown so he can buy another casino.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Hell, I knew Hannah was an Anarchist after her first 10 posts. And I really enjoy reading her posts; she very much reminds me of someone I used to know.

I enjoy her posts also, and I understand to some degree where she comes from, I am just a different sort of anarchist. I think we need certain sorts of infrastructure to make communities run in a rational way. I think that local government is the best government, but there also has to be some uniform standards as to what we want communities to look like. For example, healthy communities are a place with good schools, roads, hospitals, goods and services. Healthy communities require some form of taxation to insure that they have the things they need. We cannot count on individuals to plan them or to fund them... and some communities have less than others, and their basic needs continue, whether they can afford them or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Here's a good plan I think.

You select a town that is dying or dead. How about Detroit, or East Saint Louis.

You select an industry that requires low start up costs, and low barrier to entry. Oh, I don't know, how about Website Development/Database Management/Open Source Programming Languages/etc.....

The US government, State Government, Say simply any company with revenue less than 10 million / year that moves there, pays 1/2 the tax rate they would otherwise. You go to Google, and say hey put some of that Google Fiber in here. You open up a hosting center in the town, that will allow anyone to colocate a server actual cost.

Then you open a 24 hour a day computer learning center right in the middle of hell's kitchen, with generous sponsorship from HP/google/microsoft/etc... security will not be an issue. Then you bring in professors, to teach all the way from introductory computer science classes all the way through the most advanced topics, you record these you put them on the web. Now, anyone can get a Masters Degree from home/ or the equivalent education if not the diploma, but that doesn't matter if you are working for yourself, and it doesn't matter much anyway, as in computer science, it's more about what have you done, than a paper anyway.

There you go, economic opportunity, brought to the masses, at low cost.