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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 6:00:01 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

quote:

ORIGINAL: PetiteOralSub

Im unemployed, and have been for some time now.

Employemnt is not a right in democratic capitalist societies, it is however in totalinarian communist societies.

I believe strongly in democracy and capitalism.
and I'm conservative fiscally.

despite being unemployed and not on the dole and ineligible for aid of any kind because I am not a minority,
I still do not dream of a socialist totality running the country that I have pledged my life, loyalty and liberty to several times and will continue to do so.




Who is paying your bills right now, being that you are unemployed, not on the dole and ineligible for aid?

I have news for you. Your beloved capitalism is pissing on you right now just as much as your hated socialist alternatives.  You just haven't noticed it yet, because you are too busy raising the flag every morning at 6 am.





And that, in 3 short sentences, shows very clearly why this country is in such dire straits.

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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 7:12:47 PM   
flcouple2009


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Stop rewarding corporations for moving jobs out of the country.

There are too many instances where corporations moved jobs overseas not because they didn't make a profit but because they didn't make an obscene profit. 

We're only making a $350 million dollar profit, move everything overseas and we can make $500 million.  That will run up the stock price and we can cash out big on the stock options.  So the CEO's and board members make much bank while the country crumbles.

Stop rewarding them for flushing the country down the toilet.

You move the factory out, pay tariffs and taxes to bring your product back in.


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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 7:28:22 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Cold blooded, Mari? I suppose thats a big step up from other things I've been called lately, but the answer is not an eternal stream of handouts, that become an entitlement, that become a way of life.

What you are asking about, I don't think are legitmate functions for our government, nor the choices that preserve a free society.

What, for example, happens with the guaranteed job of an alcoholic who won't stop drinking, no matter how many times we send him to rehab? What happens to the morale of guys who have to deal with him at work all day, and wonder why they are bothering to get up on time?



Rich, we are talking about responsible people who WANT and need a job.
I am not talking about forcing or making eyeryone in our society work, or attempting or forcing irresponsible people into jobs.
I am specifically talking about people who desperately want and need a job.

Why is it that you and many others on this thread, immediately begin talking about giving jobs to and than forcing alcoholics and drug addicts into employment?

No one has mentioned lowering the exceptations of what is required in order to perform and than hold down a job.

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/18/2011 7:32:36 PM >

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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 7:39:32 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I would love an economy that was capable of creating the kinds of jobs that were prevalent in the sixties and seventies.We don't have it.

Part of the ultimate solution IMO would have been for housing prices to drop to the point where jobs didn't need to be high paid. TARP prevented that by propping up RE prices and preventing a major devaluation.

We DO have employment for all.  Anyone at their option can start up a sole prop relatively easily.  I've had two business fail under me though... making a business successful is much harder than starting it.  As opposed to pushing getting jobs, I'd like to see efforts to making starting a business more attractive.


Steven, I TOTALLY agree with making housing prices more affordable, and also making the price of apartments more affordable.
Even with all the foreclosures on the market, it is hardly easy to obtain a loan these days.

In major metropolitan area's such as the Washington D.C. area, homes and apartments are still very expensive.

In Northern Virginia, there are many people who are employed that live in shelters because they can not afford an apartment, much less a home.
Especially, if you prefer to live somewhere a bit safe.

Homeless problem in Northern Virginia

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/18/2011 7:51:10 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 7:50:06 PM   
PdxJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

FR

Stop rewarding corporations for moving jobs out of the country.

There are too many instances where corporations moved jobs overseas not because they didn't make a profit but because they didn't make an obscene profit. 

We're only making a $350 million dollar profit, move everything overseas and we can make $500 million.  That will run up the stock price and we can cash out big on the stock options.  So the CEO's and board members make much bank while the country crumbles.

Stop rewarding them for flushing the country down the toilet.

You move the factory out, pay tariffs and taxes to bring your product back in.



You're oversimplifying it a bit.

The U.S. has the 2nd highest corporate taxes in the world. 2nd only to Japan.
Add to that insult - the U.S. has the strictest pollution laws in the world.
Oh, let's not forget, most corporations have the unions thrust down their throats and are forced to pay insane wages for low production workers when they can get twice the work for 1/4 of the costs elsewhere.

Yes, corporations want to make more of a profit - who doesn't?
If corporations make a profit they what? That's right - they hire more employees, increase wages and open more plants/ warehouses, etc.
Which does what? Yes, it lowers unemployment.
Seems to me they have reason to move out of the country.


It is not the governments job to create employment.
Most, if not all, the OP seems to want points to socialism.
Socialism, much like communism, in its truest forms are a beautiful concept - they are also both extremely invasive and limiting.
This country was started to get away from limiting, overly controlling governments. It was an experiment and has so far succeeded beyond anyones dream. Yes, succeeded - even with the piss poor way our government runs itself.

You want to blame someone for the ills of this country blame the government - not the corporations.
Our government wastes money hand over fist. Billions a years are wasted, skimmed and over paid due.
If the government wasn't wasting and stealing so much, we could probably support the unemployed better - we'd have the money for it.


What's the answer? How do we fix it?
LOL - it can't be fixed. Between the crooks we have elected to run the country, overpaying government workers, the unions (both private and government), and the tons of money we pour in to 'helping' this person or that person - it is unfixable because no one wants it fixed. They are getting their money, they couldn't give to shits that this country is collapsing in upon itself.

In order to fix the countries problems there would have to be a revolution and there are to few with the nuts to actually do it so it'll never happen.
It will be interesting to see what happens when we actually do go bankrupt and have to shut down the government. Maybe then the problems could be fixed but I doubt it.



< Message edited by PdxJ -- 5/18/2011 7:53:44 PM >

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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 7:57:34 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I am torn on this subject because i don't believe the government has the right to tell businesses who and when to hire. But i also do not think it bodes well for the US when you have people who have good qualifications not finding work that they can utilize their skills but instead those skills are wasted in hole in the wall jobs that pretty much anyone can do.  To me, the US should be ashamed that there are 1 million people applying for a job at McDs because a lot of them are this desperate to work becuase they can't find work they are qualified to do.

What does it say for the US as a whole when you have people with good quality skills working at whole in the wall places not being utilized to their fullest potential.

If we stop allowing people to utilize their potential to the fullest because we shrug and say oh well to the fact they can't find jobs to utilize their skills, people will stop caring whether they are utilized to their fullest potential and where will that leave us in the next few generations.  We have to compete with countries such as China in this world, we can't afford to shrug off the fact that millions of peopel are out of work and their educations and skills are not being utilized to their fullest potential to benefit themselves and indirectly the US as a whole.

angel


Interesting post, angel.

I NEVER mentioned in my OP, that the government should tell corporations who they could hire or make them hire anyone.

The premise of my OP, was the question: "Is employment in America a right?" Should people even have the expectation that they will get a job, and what supports should be in place for those that want to work and are unable to find work."

I will probably start a post in the future, of what the future may look like in America, if/when unemployment reaches well OVER 30% and we have generations of people that have never been able to obtain a job/or "create" a viable business, as we see in certain area's in Europe.

The long term unemployed and large number of those underemployed, are not just going to "go away".
We can decide if we want to provide employment or "assistance".


< Message edited by Marini -- 5/18/2011 8:32:13 PM >

_____________________________

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Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:08:34 PM   
ModTwentyOne


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Status: offline 		This thread just got shorter by 86 posts.  I cannot imagine that anyone would be surprised as to why their post was pulled.



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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:09:32 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

FR

Stop rewarding corporations for moving jobs out of the country.



We don't. We punish them so they are forced to move out of the country.

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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:16:50 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

FR

Stop rewarding corporations for moving jobs out of the country.

There are too many instances where corporations moved jobs overseas not because they didn't make a profit but because they didn't make an obscene profit. 

We're only making a $350 million dollar profit, move everything overseas and we can make $500 million.  That will run up the stock price and we can cash out big on the stock options.  So the CEO's and board members make much bank while the country crumbles.

Stop rewarding them for flushing the country down the toilet.

You move the factory out, pay tariffs and taxes to bring your product back in.



Ya sitting down there fl....good

I totally agree with you


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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:24:29 PM   
xssve


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Dumb post, you didn't mention the billions of dollars corporations spend to buy the government.

< Message edited by xssve -- 5/18/2011 8:26:25 PM >

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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:29:59 PM   
ModTwentyOne


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Status: offline 		Four more posts gone.  Stick to the topic.


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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:33:28 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

FR

Stop rewarding corporations for moving jobs out of the country.



We don't. We punish them so they are forced to move out of the country.
You're kidding right? Capitalism thrives on cheap labor, always has, profitability is about several things, one of which is variable costs - that's labor.

Unions became popular in this country originally when firms paid people less than they could afford to live on, essentially turning them back into indentured servants - sound familiar?

They're really being punished poor guys, you think any of them is having problems making mortgage payments?

For the most part, making things is just a sideline anyway: their main product is stock, and, there are so many ways to manipulate stock prices that it's almost pointless to try to do anything about it anymore.

Mention that stock options ought to be expensed, and see what kind of reception you get - just don't expected to get invited back.

< Message edited by xssve -- 5/18/2011 8:34:04 PM >

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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:36:19 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:


Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed?


A much better question would be "Is employment a social good?"

And it clearly is, contributing to a nation in multiple ways, just as large armies of unemployed create social ills.


Thank you Professor Musicmystery.
I often have an idea for a topic, but a bit of a problem phrasing it, correctly.

Is employment a social good, is a great way of phrasing the question.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
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Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:48:55 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The worst thing about the long term unemployed is their demographic...

They are often men over the age of 50, which means they are not eligible for social security, a little old to be training for a new career, and are often the victim of age discrimination. MickyDs isn't going to hire these men. They are often over qualified for any sort of joe-job that they try for, and there is usually some young hungry person who they are going against to land these jobs.

For many of these men, it means living off the savings they had for their retirement and selling off assets, leaving them with little for when they actually DO reach old age they will not be able to retire because they used it all up.

Here is the deal, if we as a society are going to end social security, or extend the age under which people can collect it, we need to make some very harsh age discrimination laws. It just isn't right that we postpone the age of retirement and then allow employers to discriminate based upon an applicants age.


Thank you julia, I certainly agree.
My ex is a computer network engineer and he was able to get a job after about 8 months.
He was on the brink of losing his home, he wasn't getting quality medical care {he is diabetic, and has a history of nerve damage in his neck area}, and it was very sad.
He is 48, I guess he is lucky he wasn't also a victim of age discrimination.



Oh, so he owns a house. Well, he could have rented out the rooms so he could have stretched the $ he had and was getting and he would have been in much better shape.

Or you could have let him move in with you.

I agree with Hannah on employment being a right and the govt owing everyone a job. The govt simply doesnt have that kind of $.

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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:57:41 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The worst thing about the long term unemployed is their demographic...

They are often men over the age of 50, which means they are not eligible for social security, a little old to be training for a new career, and are often the victim of age discrimination. MickyDs isn't going to hire these men. They are often over qualified for any sort of joe-job that they try for, and there is usually some young hungry person who they are going against to land these jobs.

For many of these men, it means living off the savings they had for their retirement and selling off assets, leaving them with little for when they actually DO reach old age they will not be able to retire because they used it all up.

Here is the deal, if we as a society are going to end social security, or extend the age under which people can collect it, we need to make some very harsh age discrimination laws. It just isn't right that we postpone the age of retirement and then allow employers to discriminate based upon an applicants age.


Thank you julia, I certainly agree.
My ex is a computer network engineer and he was able to get a job after about 8 months.
He was on the brink of losing his home, he wasn't getting quality medical care {he is diabetic, and has a history of nerve damage in his neck area}, and it was very sad.
He is 48, I guess he is lucky he wasn't also a victim of age discrimination.



Oh, so he owns a house. Well, he could have rented out the rooms so he could have stretched the $ he had and was getting and he would have been in much better shape.

Or you could have let him move in with you.

I agree with Hannah on employment being a right and the govt owing everyone a job. The govt simply doesnt have that kind of $.

Actually tj, he WAS renting out rooms to 2 different people.
I DID loan him money and even bought him food.

Move in with me? Didn't I say EX-HUSBAND????

Don't you think most people that are unemployed are getting help or living with friends and family?
Is that the long term solution or the answer?
Also, I never stated that the government should "owe" us a job, I asked if having a job is a right?

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/18/2011 9:04:44 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
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(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 8:58:30 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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Status: offline 		Employment isn't a right, I'd go so far as to say most social safety nets aren't either, the exception being in the case of kids, and the severely disabled.

Here's the thing, I've never accepted any form of public assistance in my adult life, ever. At one point I was so broke I was living off of two .99 cent hardees hamburgers and sleeping on a concrete floor, with no idea how I would get out of that situation. It never even occurred to me to go steal from others because I fucked up.

You know what that was probably the best thing really, as all I had was an internet connection, and fear of poverty to get me out of that situation.

Well, now, I'm making more than most do, and somehow I'm supposed to feel for people, that think the solution is handouts, give me a break, until you are sleeping on a concrete floor for months, live off less than 10 dollars a day for months and months, and others around have completely given up hope, and you still are trying. Well, I don't think you know the meaning of "trying".

So, now, yeah, I'm supposed to feel for people, that have more resources, support, and means than I did back then, and give them money?

I mean seriously, I learned from the internet, I figured it out, I spent 12 hours a day staring at computer screen figuring it out, I didn't sit on a comfy couch complaining the world owes me a paycheck, while watching Jerry Springer, or bitching that some factory was not hiring.

Give me a break.

Newsflash: Every single person that is of sound mind and average intelligence can be employed for yourself....
Startup Costs: 10.00 Dollars, and an internet connection.

Whatever, It sickens me that people lack REAL confidence in themselves and determination, that the only solution is either welfare, or employment via some corp. It really blows my mind when Computer Science Graduates complain they can't find work. LOL. Yeah, you can't find work, because you want someone to pay you to sit doing very little, apparently.


Anyway, I guarantee I make more than 80-90% of the people up here, and I guarantee you back then, I made less than 90%+ of the people up here, and during that whole time I didn't go on welfare, I didn't take. I didn't bitch about those doing well. Hell, I even helped my lazy friend that was given 80K to start a "business" for virtually nothing, and guess what, HE WENT BROKE, because you can't give something to someone, that doesn't know or appreciate it's worth, and won't put in the time to "LEARN".

Life is a series of choices people, you fuck up, you suffer, you do well, you get rewarded, you make others pay for your mistakes, you are a thief.

So, fuck no people don't deserve to be employed, because every single healthy person can be employed already. You can show up at this trash company my friends kid got hired at and they will hire anyone, but the work sucks, it's hard, and almost everyone quits, but you can work. You can learn. The internet is still growing by leaps and bounds, there are billions sloshing around up there, and it just requires learning. Oh, that's it, people don't want to learn, they want to be told, and given a 100% guaranteed plan of action.

Yeah, this whole notion of guarantees on the backs of others just makes me want to puke, literally vomit.

If you are unemployed long term, there is something wrong with YOU!!!!!, that's the cold hard fact.

I have far to many real life examples of "real" people to believe otherwise, the whiny babies of the world will always fail eventually, because they don't know how to make money, or why something makes money, they don't want to learn either, or be creative. They want to be told "EVERYTHING", like a robot, as if anyone is going to give you step by step instructions for anything that is worth knowing in life. The expectation that one can be a non-thinking, non-creative drone like creature, and make a good living is perverse.

The only security in life comes from you, and that is the knowledge that you are capable of dealing with uncertainty.

I'm going to stop now, I could give myself carpal tunnel before I got through this topic thoroughly.



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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 9:02:57 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

Is employment a social good, is a great way of phrasing the question.

I don't see why we need employment when we could just be a society that steals from one another as Hannah suggests.

You broke? Just take someone else shit. A real humanitarian approach.


Yes of course it would be good, I say, pretty much, all the way around. As much as I want the government out of my life in almost every way possible. They are here to stay...and since they are, I believe, greatly responsible for making the mess that is now, (which has been a long time coming) they need to help clean it up. Close the holes in the dams that were opened up, which allowed big business to sell America short in the job market. Fix the issues within the market that allowed the recent crashes to happen. So on and so on.

Now I've always had a job...Been working since I was 10 and the little time I didn't work was when I chose not to so I could travel the US...even then I worked occasionally for a little extra spending money. It's slightly different in the current economical climate..It's not just people that are lazy that are "having a hard time finding a job"...it's people who actually are legitimately looking too.


I personally think America was better off when we were a somewhat closed economical nation instead of a card carrying member in the global market. Now every time someone farts in China we have to deal with the stink.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 5/18/2011 9:04:18 PM >

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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 9:05:40 PM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Ya sitting down there fl....good

I totally agree with you




We all know Nike didn't start making shoes in Vietnam because they couldn't afford to make them here.  Apple didn't move all of their manufacturing to China because they couldn't make a profit making ipods here.

We got sold out for mega profits and stock options.  

When people ask why don't we make things here anymore it's easy.  That doesn't allow the people in charge to make hundreds of millions on stock options.


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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 9:12:46 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

I've got the answer...we can lower taxes, cut school funding, and pay no attention to environmental laws and allow for more growth.....oops...sorry, I was channeling my inner Rick Scott...



We can sell all the gold in Fort Knox, sell Utah (lets face it, only Mormons use that place, no one will miss it much), and add corporate sponsorship to our national parks (think, Half Dome with a giant Marlboro billboard on it!)

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RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be d... - 5/18/2011 9:14:47 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

You broke? Just take someone else shit. A real humanitarian approach.


Hey, they have been doing that with Medicare and worker's pensions forever!

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