RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (Full Version)

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hlen5 -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 10:41:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I actually don't, I just wanted to see what the reaction would be.... so far it is what I was expecting



I'm glad you explained. My first thought in reading the OP was that this was the opposite of what you said in the Muslim Mother thread.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 10:43:39 AM)

I would disagree somewhat with the OP because as far as I know sexual slavery is treated seriously by the authorities generally in the West. The fact that its a big problem doesn't mean its necessarily being ignored. Like other issues its very hard to solve because it is associated with highly organised crime. Human trafficking is a huge issue generally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I'm sure they are not better or worse than men of other nationalities, only most civilized countries have figured out that having prostitution legalized does resolve a lot of the problem, you can have health checks, can limit it to certain areas (away from schools and residential areas), the women don't need the protection of pimps and can appeal to the police for help when they get roughed up, you are not forcing people into illegality but you can actually collect tax, and you free manpower in the vice department of the police, instead of going after the women, they can check if they had their health checks, are legally in the country, most countries made the experience that women trust those cops a lot more and will tell them if a pimp forces them, countless benefits really. making prostitution illegal is not the solution, as long as somebody is willing to buy (and apparently a lot of guys do) somebody will be willing to sell. I have no issue with it, if a woman wants to do that and doesn't mind, more power to her, wouldn't be my cup of tea but we're all different, only if she is selling the use of her body, then she should also earn the money and not some sleazy pimp.

Legislation seems the way to go although it has its problems. some say prostitution automatically makes women second class citizens. It is often a consequence of that with abuse, coercion or if they have no other proper choices due to the dictates of society but it can be a legitimate choice IMO. Seems some women choose it as a path without strict necessity.




juliaoceania -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 10:46:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I actually don't, I just wanted to see what the reaction would be.... so far it is what I was expecting



I'm glad you explained. My first thought in reading the OP was that this was the opposite of what you said in the Muslim Mother thread.



I didn't think it would be as effective if I announced my agenda in the OP...

Also, I find this to be one of the more repugnant things about American society, the way women who perform sexual services for money (whether coerced or not) are treated, and the hypocrisy of allowing men to buy sex with little consequence (even the public perp walks for Johns in no way is as shaming as being classified a "whore" is for women)




LadyConstanze -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 10:48:38 AM)

Some women actually want to do it, and if they want to do it all the more power to them, and give them protection, this way the police can go after human trafficking with more man power and greater force...

Some people might disagree but I would have more respect for a prostitute having sex for a fixed price, than for a married woman who will withhold sex until her husband pays for a new fur coat/car/face life/you name it - at least one of them is honest about the trade off




Sanity -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 10:56:11 AM)


Absolutely

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

I would disagree somewhat with the OP because as far as I know sexual slavery is treated seriously by the authorities generally in the West. The fact that its a big problem doesn't mean its necessarily being ignored. Like other issues its very hard to solve because it is associated with highly organised crime. Human trafficking is a huge issue generally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I'm sure they are not better or worse than men of other nationalities, only most civilized countries have figured out that having prostitution legalized does resolve a lot of the problem, you can have health checks, can limit it to certain areas (away from schools and residential areas), the women don't need the protection of pimps and can appeal to the police for help when they get roughed up, you are not forcing people into illegality but you can actually collect tax, and you free manpower in the vice department of the police, instead of going after the women, they can check if they had their health checks, are legally in the country, most countries made the experience that women trust those cops a lot more and will tell them if a pimp forces them, countless benefits really. making prostitution illegal is not the solution, as long as somebody is willing to buy (and apparently a lot of guys do) somebody will be willing to sell. I have no issue with it, if a woman wants to do that and doesn't mind, more power to her, wouldn't be my cup of tea but we're all different, only if she is selling the use of her body, then she should also earn the money and not some sleazy pimp.

Legislation seems the way to go although it has its problems. some say prostitution automatically makes women second class citizens. It is often a consequence of that with abuse, coercion or if they have no other proper choices due to the dictates of society but it can be a legitimate choice IMO. Seems some women choose it as a path without strict necessity.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 11:00:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Some women actually want to do it, and if they want to do it all the more power to them, and give them protection, this way the police can go after human trafficking with more man power and greater force...

Some people might disagree but I would have more respect for a prostitute having sex for a fixed price, than for a married woman who will withhold sex until her husband pays for a new fur coat/car/face life/you name it - at least one of them is honest about the trade off

I agree. It depends on the morality that the woman in question has. It was once looked on as horrific, still is but not so much with many people. I think its a question of whether women have control to choose. Having the misfortune to be a hetrosexual male (!) I know very well that women have a real sexual power. [:D] It must go back to their role in evolution as sexual selectors so there can be a certain power play in marriage and will always be a supply and demand issue. Doesn't necessarily make it right for men to use prostitutes - I certainly couldn't bring myself to ever pay for something so intimate but there is a real honesty about it. Others will no doubt disagree but some male-female 'ships can have at least what appears to be a prostitute like element, which personally I find a little disturbing. Thats why I have decided to withdraw from society and become a monk!




hlen5 -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 11:08:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I actually don't, I just wanted to see what the reaction would be.... so far it is what I was expecting



I'm glad you explained. My first thought in reading the OP was that this was the opposite of what you said in the Muslim Mother thread.



I didn't think it would be as effective if I announced my agenda in the OP...

Also, I find this to be one of the more repugnant things about American society, the way women who perform sexual services for money (whether coerced or not) are treated, and the hypocrisy of allowing men to buy sex with little consequence (even the public perp walks for Johns in no way is as shaming as being classified a "whore" is for women)



I agree. On occasion the john's names are published in the paper. I think they should be arrested too.

I'm on the fence about making it legal. The oldest profession will never leave society. Since it's here to stay, legalizing it would give the prostitutes more protection. I'm hesitant about making it legal for the same reason I'm hesitant about legalizing drugs. It would legitamize drug use or using someone for a simple lustbucket.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 11:09:36 AM)

Breaking story here close to me http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/pair-accused-of-enslaving-950062.html





LadyConstanze -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 11:10:27 AM)

As I said before, it wouldn't be my cup of tea but I really have no issue with it because it's HER body, if SHE is OK with her choice, why should I have a problem with it?

Having worked in the music industry, a lot of record companies actually hired escorts for tours, they kept the musicians (with some bands I use that term very broadly) from falling into the traps of the groupies who are everywhere...

- cheaper than paternity suits
- discrete (i.e won't sell "I fucked ...." to a tabloid with intimate details like that the big bulge in the pants is a sock)
- no chance of being minors
- no threat of catching anything as their health is their capital
- they're not clingy, after the tour they go to the next job




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 11:12:20 AM)

Legalizing it, and putting it in the hands of vested business interest that is not criminal, will remove many of the problems. The reason you see drugs and postitution together is that usually those in the business of one as a pimp, is also a dealer. Create a supply of legal, clean, STD and drug tested females, and you will see less of the other. Not to mention the businesses could have an added dedicated tax to help combat some of the other issues. I see no down sides to the legalization of prostitution.




mnottertail -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 11:24:45 AM)

I agree wholeheartedly, it is not even in the realm of possibility to glut the market with gash.  It will never be in a overabundance situation, never ever. 




LadyConstanze -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 11:33:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Legalizing it, and putting it in the hands of vested business interest that is not criminal, will remove many of the problems. The reason you see drugs and postitution together is that usually those in the business of one as a pimp, is also a dealer. Create a supply of legal, clean, STD and drug tested females, and you will see less of the other. Not to mention the businesses could have an added dedicated tax to help combat some of the other issues. I see no down sides to the legalization of prostitution.


Instead of wasting money you generate income through tax... I know that in Germany they are seriously going after human trafficking and pimps, it reduced the power of the pimps incredably, along with that the drug problem you mentioned, brothels are run as businesses, legal and taxed, they can advertise, the women have health checks, it cut down on street prostitution amazingly, the owners of the brothels can't charge rents that are too high or a percentage that is too high - it would be pandering, the strain is off the women to make a certain amount. If the cops find drugs in a brothel, it's should down, if a brothel owner is found to be a pimp or allow pimping without reporting it, shut down... It didn't take care of all street prostitution and drug addicts selling themselves for a few bucks, you will always have that, but if you got the choice of a secure environment or you take a massive risk by picking up somebody at a street corner - what would most people do?




xssve -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 12:00:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

A sex slave is not a protitute in that a " prostitute " choses to make her living with her body. A sex slave is forced against her will and coirced and threatened.


Then there are very few actual prostitutes in the United States as many of the street walker variety (and maybe even the call girl variety) are threatened and coerced.

I get your point, you would like to create some sort of difference between someone who is sold into slavery without their consent, and the common tramp at the liquor store, unfortunately, sometimes there isn't much of a difference in the day to day reality.

The fact of the matter is, if a woman has had someone sell access to their pussy in this country they are a second class citizen. And when women like this are beaten and murdered, our law enforcement doesn't work quite as hard to catch the perp as they would if "she didn't ask for it"... it is a hypocrisy in this country that disgusts me
Read this for background.

Supply and demand is at the root of it, as usual, sex is a market - price typically depends on scarcity, and sex is one commodity where supply can be manipulated at will.

Prostitutes provide a valuable service, I don't like the idea of prosecuting Johns, because every guy frequenting a prostitute is one guy who isn't molesting his or someone else child - it is a victimless crime, how she got to be a prostitute is not directly the fault of the John, it's a straightforward transaction, and not all prostitutes are coerced into it, but generally speaking, it is a decision dictated by a lack of other options - drug addiction and early pregnancy play a role, i.e., some women do it to support their habit (although that too is commonly employed as a means of coercion, i.e., deliberate addiction), some do it to support their children, when they are uneducated, and unemployable for all practical purposes.

Marriage creates an artificial shortage, driving up women's value on the market, which is why women typically have historically been against prostitution - a pay-as-you-go system lowers their market value, "why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free", as the saying goes, though in this case, why buy the cow if you can just buy the milk when you want it, but in either case, slut or prostitute, the effects on market value are perceived to be the same, although in praxis, women skilled at lovemaking have historically often commanded the highest prices on the marriage market - i.e., why buy a Volkswagon when you can get a Maserati?

i.e., it's really a thing that involves our entire Judeo-Christian value system, not that there is anything wrong with marriage per se, but the value system is set up to create a scarcity of women, forcing men to compete for status females - all well and good as an economic strategy, but sex isn't just about economics, any more than it's strictly about love - it's both of those things and biology to boot - literally, males have to ejaculate on the order of every three days in order to maintain optimal fertility - sperm motility declines dramatically after three days. Women, biologically speaking, need to have sex about once a week in order to maintain optimal fertility, but it doesn't hurt them at all to do it more often, it's a minimum.

The alternative for a man, is masturbation - I'm a man in my late Forties, and at this stage of life, frequent ejaculation cuts my risk of Prostate cancer in half and I've already recovered from one Prostate infection, and being internal, they are difficult to treat.

But, as a culture, we of course frown heavily on masturbation - so heavily in fact that it seems rape, or even doing your own daughter is more acceptable, more manly, much less visit a prostitute, etc.

And, I also don't think anybody promotes that particular value more than women because again, that maintains the bias towards a sellers market.

Biologically, it's fairly simple: men have evolved to have sex at nearly every opportunity, because you never know when the next one might come along, and the biological costs are negligible - sperm, basically.

Women, being in demand for sex, but bearing nearly 100% of the reproductive costs, have evolved to use it as currency to obtain commitment and resources for their offspring, i.e., marriage is a social institution evolved to induce males to share the woman's reproductive costs all well and good, but start manipulating supply for other, abstract non-biological  reasons, i.e., pride, profit and power: politics - and the result? Something, somewhere, has to give.

It's like squeezing a tube of toothpaste without taking the cap off - it's gonna eventually squirt out somewhere.




popeye1250 -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 12:40:59 PM)

The answer is to legalize prostitution.
Look how it's run in some counties in Nevada that have legalized it, like a business where the women make good money and are safe and protected. That way you eliminate the pimps and traffickers.
There will always be a demand and that will never change so manage that demand.




xssve -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 12:55:44 PM)

But to sell that, you have to take on the whole Judeo-Christian value system - and it's the value system you're subject to whether you're a Christian or not.

To be fair, most of the worlds major religions are not substantially different in this, and one piece of evidence that the hypothesis I'm offering is robust, is that Rape rates have declined everywhere internet porn is available, while it has risen in places where it is not available, and risen most dramatically in places where there are few or no alternatives to marriage, and marriage itself complicated - India for example where the combination of moral standards and the caste system makes casual dating practically impossible.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 1:01:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
.

Prostitutes provide a valuable service, I don't like the idea of prosecuting Johns, because every guy frequenting a prostitute is one guy who isn't molesting his or someone else child - it is a victimless crime, how she got to be a prostitute is not directly the fault of the John, it's a straightforward transaction, and not all prostitutes are coerced into it, but generally speaking, it is a decision dictated by a lack of other options - drug addiction and early pregnancy play a role, i.e., some women do it to support their habit (although that too is commonly employed as a means of coercion, i.e., deliberate addiction), some do it to support their children, when they are uneducated, and unemployable for all practical purposes.




What a load of BS, a guy who is a pedophile will not be attracted to women, just like a gay guy will not turn straight...

And if a guy doesn't give a shit if the woman in this "straightforward transaction" if she is obviously forced into it (i.e. hardly speaking the language and such), I can't be arsed if his sorry arse is prosecuted, because he is an enabler for trafficking.

As for all prostitutes are being uneducated, how about stereotyping to the extreme? Some women might like it, I met quite a few who do. Unfortunately guys do not give a shit if women do it out of their own free will or are forced into it, a lot of them don't care as long as they get their rocks off, sorry, if their sex drive is so much stronger than ethics, tough shit if they end in jail.




xssve -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 1:01:56 PM)

If that weren't all enough, the global economy doesnt' help either - under stress most organisms, including people, shift from K strategies to r - strategies, i.e., reproductive rates increase, regardless of method, it's a mechanism to facilitate the survival of that entire species.

The real kicker here is that all this works even when reproduction is not the issue - it has been the issue since life began, while semi-reliable birth control has only been available for half a century or so. Intelletually, we may know better, behaviorally, the limbic system hasn't got the news yet.




xssve -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 1:10:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
.

Prostitutes provide a valuable service, I don't like the idea of prosecuting Johns, because every guy frequenting a prostitute is one guy who isn't molesting his or someone else child - it is a victimless crime, how she got to be a prostitute is not directly the fault of the John, it's a straightforward transaction, and not all prostitutes are coerced into it, but generally speaking, it is a decision dictated by a lack of other options - drug addiction and early pregnancy play a role, i.e., some women do it to support their habit (although that too is commonly employed as a means of coercion, i.e., deliberate addiction), some do it to support their children, when they are uneducated, and unemployable for all practical purposes.




What a load of BS, a guy who is a pedophile will not be attracted to women, just like a gay guy will not turn straight...

And if a guy doesn't give a shit if the woman in this "straightforward transaction" if she is obviously forced into it (i.e. hardly speaking the language and such), I can't be arsed if his sorry arse is prosecuted, because he is an enabler for trafficking.

As for all prostitutes are being uneducated, how about stereotyping to the extreme? Some women might like it, I met quite a few who do. Unfortunately guys do not give a shit if women do it out of their own free will or are forced into it, a lot of them don't care as long as they get their rocks off, sorry, if their sex drive is so much stronger than ethics, tough shit if they end in jail.
At what point is it pedophila? Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed - throughout most of history, puberty is the sign of adulthood, 18 is an artificial line - you're a child and 17, and magically become an adult at 18?

I've known plenty of prostitutes, and the majority I've known were freelancers raising children.

So basically you're saying you want to take the one option they do have away from them?

Because if you think that will put a dent in trafficking, you're pissing up a rope - they've already crossed the line, what do they have to lose here?

You're fighting biology, and that isn't ever going to change: it's the cause du jour vs. Three and a half Billion years of evolution.




xssve -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 1:14:50 PM)

You know you're acting like it's all my idea, I'm just giving you the facts, I didn't decide shit, nobody asked me, I just work here just like you.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants? (5/18/2011 1:21:21 PM)

FR to the RE:

Why cant American women keep their panties on?




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