RE: Is employment a right part duex

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tj444 -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 3:55:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ebonywarqueen quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 There are millions unemployed in the US because of the banks, lax mortgage lending and a housing bubble and subsequent crash. There is not much left of the construction industry, not like it was at the peak, so the majority of those jobs are gone, gone, gone and related jobs in the mortgage industry, real estate industry, even furniture industry (& related) that people that move into a house spend money on. It has very little if anything to do with NAFTA. It is easy to throw out stats but the question is, what did these people do before they became unemployed? Agreed- and AGAIN I never anywhere stated that NAFTA was the SOLE cause of unemployment in this country. I named it as one of the causes of unemployment. Specifically over 1 million jobs. And we cannot forget that economics are all related whether they are legs of that industry or not. A construction worker cannot find a job, so he and his family buy less, stores make less money then retail workers lose jobs as well. Fewer taxes are taken in from unemployed people so public workers get laid off as well, jobless people cannot buy houses and that goes right back to the construction industry. Sooner or later we will all realize that we are all interconnected. You are the one going on about 13 million unemployed like its all nafta's fault. How many jobs have you personally cost your fellow Americans buy buying something made in China or bought food from Chile or any number of other countries? You keep going on about nafta but I would guess that more jobs have gone to India, telemarketing jobs, computer programing jobs, and even medical tourism to India costing US doctors work. And if you want to end nafta and shut the border, its a door that can slam shut both ways, Canada is a major source of (friendly) oil to the US. Mexico also has oil exported to the US. But hey, better you send US dollars to Saudia Arabia, and that money can be indirectly used to support terrorists like bin laden. Edited to add this- http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/stronger-canada-us-oil-ties-are-a-win-win/article1984354/ "We also shouldn’t ignore the economic implications of the Keystone XL pipeline. Building the pipeline will create more than 20,000 new American jobs in construction and manufacturing in the short term, adding more than $6-billion in personal income to those workers. In addition, more than 250,000 jobs will be created in the long term. The pipeline would also generate needed revenue for states and local communities, including $585-million in taxes and more than $5-billion in property taxes over the pipeline’s operating life." And this is just one benefit to continued good relations with Canada.

ebonywarqueen -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 4:33:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 You are the one going on about 13 million unemployed like its all nafta's fault. How many jobs have you personally cost your fellow Americans buy buying something made in China or bought food from Chile or any number of other countries? You keep going on about nafta but I would guess that more jobs have gone to India, telemarketing jobs, computer programing jobs, and even medical tourism to India costing US doctors work. And if you want to end nafta and shut the border, its a door that can slam shut both ways, Canada is a major source of (friendly) oil to the US. Mexico also has oil exported to the US. But hey, better you send US dollars to Saudia Arabia, and that money can be indirectly used to support terrorists like bin laden. Actually I mentioned NAFTA job losses TWICE. AND BOTH TIMES I STATED HOW MANY JOBS WERE LOST DUE TO NAFTA. OVER 1 MILLION. (1,673,454 TO BE EXACT) so NO I did not keep going on about NAFTA you and MusicMystery do. I listed 3 things including FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS AND OUTSOURCING- in my original post and you both chose free trade agreements to focus on. And where did I say to end NAFTA? Where did I say to shut the borders? Show me where I said it. And good tactic- throw in terrorism when it has nothing to do with the discussion...that should scare a few people. [8\|] .

Termyn8or -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 4:35:08 PM)
FR I wasn't so much talking about the new neocons. Who was President when China got MFN status ? What was more the point, this shit started a long time ago and really, I have every fucking right to say I told you so. I have been on the inside track on two things with which US citizens fell in "love" and have seen the changes. You can debate all these neoassholes you want, but neoassholes are on both sides of the aisle. I KNOW what this country was like 35 years ago. And some people wonder why I'm pissed. Sure I still make almost thirty bucks an hour, but that is not what would satisfy me. What would is to see the economy run right. Even with debt in the past, it was manageable. It was sustainable. Some of you think it still is. So mark my words NOW. It it not. I mean it is to the point where almost no matter what we do, we are fucked. And that change wasn't all in what the poltiticians did, the blame also lies with the populace. Back when you could "buy American" you didn't. Now you can't. Happy now ? Yes, as one poster prodded "do people WANT to" lose their jobs, houses and all that ? Well they said yes, about 35 years ago. That's why I don't waste too much time arguing whether tweddledee or tweedledum is worse. Neither one of them can fix it now. And what is really not good is that even hindsight is not 20/20. You take "facts" and "figures" for which the derivation has been changed how many times ? Fourteen trillion in debt is just OK now. My sister and I have no kids. We are very glad. And soon we will write our wills. And by that time we will have given away half our shit. We are happy not to care anymore. Your kids have to pay. We're happy, how about you ? T^T

ebonywarqueen -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 4:35:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I just demonstrated to you that I DID NOT MAKE IT UP. You presented the bank nonsense as an argument that people in the U.S. mistrusted U.S. banks. Turns out you were talking about tax evasion. Hardly a mistrust of U.S. banks--just an urge to hide assets. If people with money are choosing foreign banks over us banks they DO distrust US banks. whether they think they will be reported for tax evasion or they just just the banks are crummy. They STILL do not trust US the banks to safeguard their wealth.

Termyn8or -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 4:40:36 PM)
"If people with money are choosing foreign banks over us banks they DO distrust US banks." Sorry that you were not responding to me but here goes. It's not so much the banks we don't trust, it's the USD. Years ago my clan considered opening up a Canadian bank accout. Wish we had now. T^T

tj444 -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 4:49:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ebonywarqueen quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 You are the one going on about 13 million unemployed like its all nafta's fault. How many jobs have you personally cost your fellow Americans buy buying something made in China or bought food from Chile or any number of other countries? You keep going on about nafta but I would guess that more jobs have gone to India, telemarketing jobs, computer programing jobs, and even medical tourism to India costing US doctors work. And if you want to end nafta and shut the border, its a door that can slam shut both ways, Canada is a major source of (friendly) oil to the US. Mexico also has oil exported to the US. But hey, better you send US dollars to Saudia Arabia, and that money can be indirectly used to support terrorists like bin laden. Actually I mentioned NAFTA job losses TWICE. AND BOTH TIMES I STATED HOW MANY JOBS WERE LOST DUE TO NAFTA. OVER 1 MILLION. (1,673,454 TO BE EXACT) so NO I did not keep going on about NAFTA you and MusicMystery do. I listed 3 things including FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS AND OUTSOURCING- in my original post and you both chose free trade agreements to focus on. And where did I say to end NAFTA? Where did I say to shut the borders? Show me where I said it. And good tactic- throw in terrorism when it has nothing to do with the discussion...that should scare a few people. [8\|] . Then why bitch about nafta at all? The US benefits greatly in all aspects and various ways from nafta (greater than the supposed job loss you claim) and if it didnt, the agreement would have ended long ago. You are the one that said we are all connected, yet you dont see the connection between the US buying Saudi oil and that money supporting terrorists? Where do you think bin laden was from and where he got his millions of dollars? Not to mention he was trained by the US military, which is why he was able to evade capture for so long. And you didnt answer my question, how many jobs have you cost America cuz you dont buy American made products?

ebonywarqueen -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 5:24:09 PM)
I didn't bitch about NAFTA I quoted stats and participated in the discussion. You and your friend were the ones bitching at me. The us buying Saudi oil... Ok for the record I am against that too but it had nothing to do with the OP or this thread. And what answer do you want to that question about jobs I have personally cost? Wtf??? you want a number? Ok- 4,865,249.....my answer is as ridiculous as your question...... As if any individual lay person can calculate their personal impact on that. And it too does not have jack to do with this discussion. Why don't you read the OP and stay on topic? Instead of trying to prove me wrong. It's an exchange of ideas not a competition.

tj444 -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 5:40:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ebonywarqueen I didn't bitch about NAFTA I quoted stats and participated in the discussion. You and your friend were the ones bitching at me. The us buying Saudi oil... Ok for the record I am against that too but it had nothing to do with the OP or this thread. And what answer do you want to that question about jobs I have personally cost? Wtf??? you want a number? Ok- 4,865,249.....my answer is as ridiculous as your question...... As if any individual lay person can calculate their personal impact on that. And it too does not have jack to do with this discussion. Why don't you read the OP and stay on topic? Instead of trying to prove me wrong. It's an exchange of ideas not a competition. i dont know what friend you are talking about, you are making assumptions. Wherever US dollars go, whether its the Saudi oil patch, China factories or farms in Chile, you support that economy when that could support American jobs instead. People that bring up nafta (which has been in existance for almost 20 years now) or outsourcing, etc want a scape goat and to blame someone else. Walmart would sell American made products if they could make money doing that but they cant. If people see a US made shirt in the store for $20 and one made in China for $10, chances are pretty good that they buy the China made one and by doing so they export US jobs. Instead of blaming corporations and outsourcing for lost jobs, people should look in the mirror because it wouldnt happen if US consumers wanted US made products.

ebonywarqueen -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 5:46:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "If people with money are choosing foreign banks over us banks they DO distrust US banks." Sorry that you were not responding to me but here goes. It's not so much the banks we don't trust, it's the USD. Years ago my clan considered opening up a Canadian bank accout. Wish we had now. T^T You know what... I agree with that. The banks are just the filter for the USD.

ebonywarqueen -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 5:59:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 i dont know what friend you are talking about, you are making assumptions. Wherever US dollars go, whether its the Saudi oil patch, China factories or farms in Chile, you support that economy when that could support American jobs instead. People that bring up nafta (which has been in existance for almost 20 years now) or outsourcing, etc want a scape goat and to blame someone else. Walmart would sell American made products if they could make money doing that but they cant. If people see a US made shirt in the store for $20 and one made in China for $10, chances are pretty good that they buy the China made one and by doing so they export US jobs. Instead of blaming corporations and outsourcing for lost jobs, people should look in the mirror because it wouldnt happen if US consumers wanted US made products. I called him your "friend" to allude to the fact that you both took the same position against me. I neither know nor care whether or not you are actual friends. As to the rest of your rant. AGREED. I stated several times that there were multiple factors affecting our economy and they are all interelated. I used NAFTA and outsourcing as examples but did not blame them for the problem. In fact when I addressed you the first time I went to great lengths to show how we are all effecting each other in this country. And now you do the same thing? So you took all this time and blew all this hot air to basically agree with with me?.THANKS. [:D] but I do wonder what Americans would buy if that CHINA made shirt was the same price? but of course there is no way we could ever know that, is there?

tj444 -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 6:18:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ebonywarqueen quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 i dont know what friend you are talking about, you are making assumptions. Wherever US dollars go, whether its the Saudi oil patch, China factories or farms in Chile, you support that economy when that could support American jobs instead. People that bring up nafta (which has been in existance for almost 20 years now) or outsourcing, etc want a scape goat and to blame someone else. Walmart would sell American made products if they could make money doing that but they cant. If people see a US made shirt in the store for $20 and one made in China for $10, chances are pretty good that they buy the China made one and by doing so they export US jobs. Instead of blaming corporations and outsourcing for lost jobs, people should look in the mirror because it wouldnt happen if US consumers wanted US made products. I called him your "friend" to allude to the fact that you both took the same position against me. I neither know nor care whether or not you are actual friends. As to the rest of your rant. AGREED. I stated several times that there were multiple factors affecting our economy and they are all interelated. I used NAFTA and outsourcing as examples but did not blame them for the problem. In fact when I addressed you the first time I went to great lengths to show how we are all effecting each other in this country. And now you do the same thing? So you took all this time and blew all this hot air to basically agree with with me?.THANKS. [:D] but I do wonder what Americans would buy if that CHINA made shirt was the same price? but of course there is no way we could ever know that, is there? No, again you are making assumptions, i do not agree with you as I dont acknowledge your claim of lost jobs regarding nafta. I dont believe your source but I am not going to get that any longer. I just find it amazing that people still bring up nafta after almost 20 years. I would say that the ship has sailed on American made products, few even exist any longer. Now its a choice of $10 China made shirt vs a $7 shirt made in Bangladesh. There is always someplace cheaper to give savvy US consumers every day low prices.

ebonywarqueen -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 6:39:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 No, again you are making assumptions, i do not agree with you as I dont acknowledge your claim of lost jobs regarding nafta. I dont believe your source but I am not going to get that any longer. I just find it amazing that people still bring up nafta after almost 20 years. I would say that the ship has sailed on American made products, few even exist any longer. Now its a choice of $10 China made shirt vs a $7 shirt made in Bangladesh. There is always someplace cheaper to give savvy US consumers every day low prices. you don't have to agree with that. It was not my claim I just posted a stat. whether or not you believe the stats is not my concern. Just like whether or not anyone chooses to believe ANY stats at any time. And many things in this world are amazing. Also, very much true about cheaper goods...... but I am sure there are one or two radicals out there that could come up with some ingenious ways to bring that "sailed ship" back home to the US.[;)] edited for spelling.

tj444 -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 6:58:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ebonywarqueen quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 No, again you are making assumptions, i do not agree with you as I dont acknowledge your claim of lost jobs regarding nafta. I dont believe your source but I am not going to get that any longer. I just find it amazing that people still bring up nafta after almost 20 years. I would say that the ship has sailed on American made products, few even exist any longer. Now its a choice of $10 China made shirt vs a $7 shirt made in Bangladesh. There is always someplace cheaper to give savvy US consumers every day low prices. you don't have to agree with that. It was not my claim I just posted a stat. whether or not you believe the stats is not my concern. Just like whether or not anyone chooses to believe ANY stats at any time. And many things in this world are amazing. Also, very much true about cheaper goods...... but I am sure there are one or two radicals out there that could come up with some ingenious ways to bring that "sailed ship" back home to the US.[;)] edited for spelling. People tend to post stats that support their viewpoint, how those stats were derived and whether or not those stats are accurate is another matter. The US made product would still need to compete price-wise with similar products available for sale. I have only heard of one such possibilty, but that way would not bring jobs back to the US as all the work would be done by CNC machines/robots. Not many people/jobs needed for that kind of operation. It doesnt really matter much where the CNC robots were located tho, could be the US or it could be China.

EternalHoH -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 7:23:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 The US benefits greatly in all aspects and various ways from nafta (greater than the supposed job loss you claim) and if it didnt, the agreement would have ended long ago. NAFTA exists not to help you or me, or to create jobs for you or me building all those new products we now export because of NAFTA. NAFTA exists only for one reason, to allow the business ownership class of this country the benefit of replacing $30/hr manufacturing costs with $1/hr manufacturing costs, and selling those products to us at a minor discount. Gee golly gosh, those $50 sneakers are now $44.95 at Walmart, whooopie for us. I hope the 3 minimum wage jobs that replaced the $30/hr steel job will allow us to swing the $44.95. The people who benefit the most are the business owners. If NAFTA didn't work for them, it would have ended a long time ago. The average American is NOT the beneficiary of NAFTA. That $5 lower price on sneakers is an afterthought. Global may be a reality, but it is a reality created by douche-bag politicians looking out for Mr Rich, at the expense of Mr Average American. It doesn't have to stay as our reality.

ebonywarqueen -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 7:28:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 People tend to post stats that support their viewpoint, how those stats were derived and whether or not those stats are accurate is another matter. AGREED- that's why its your choice whether or not to believe it. But I posted stats because I MM asked for them. The US made product would still need to compete price-wise with similar products available for sale. I have only heard of one such possibilty, but that way would not bring jobs back to the US as all the work would be done by CNC machines/robots. Not many people/jobs needed for that kind of operation. It doesnt really matter much where the CNC robots were located tho, could be the US or it could be China. AGREEED again. but there has to be an solution to this and that solution is among us.... and probably a lot simpler than we think.

tj444 -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 7:38:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EternalHoH quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 The US benefits greatly in all aspects and various ways from nafta (greater than the supposed job loss you claim) and if it didnt, the agreement would have ended long ago. NAFTA exists not to help you or me, or to create jobs for you or me building all those new products we now export because of NAFTA. NAFTA exists only for one reason, to allow the business ownership class of this country the benefit of replacing $30/hr manufacturing costs with $1/hr manufacturing costs, and selling those products to us at a minor discount. Gee golly gosh, those $50 sneakers are now $44.95 at Walmart, whooopie for us. I hope the 3 minimum wage jobs that replaced the $30/hr steel job will allow us to swing the $44.95. The people who benefit the most are the business owners. If NAFTA didn't work for them, it would have ended a long time ago. The average American is NOT the beneficiary of NAFTA. That $5 lower price on sneakers is an afterthought. Global may be a reality, but it is a reality created by douche-bag politicians looking out for Mr Rich, at the expense of Mr Average American. It doesn't have to stay as our reality. I dont know what Walmart sneakers have to do with nafta, neither Canada nor Mexico manufacture sneakers, they come from sweat shops in China, India or some other such country. I would think the steel also comes from China (or similar country) since Canada is a net importer of steel. There are no $1/hour manufacturing jobs in Canada, there are minimum wage laws there just as there are in the US.

EternalHoH -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 7:40:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Not selling it--just pointing out reality. Ignoring that reality is just silly. Too-big-to-fail banks are also a reality. I have news for you, not all things that are 'a reality' are classified as being 'good for this country'. We think we are pissed off now bailing out the mega-banks in this country because of their inter-connected systemic risk, but we actively push our economy into an equally inter-connected global system? Because its a 'hip' thing to do? Because we like dancing for joy over $5 price rollback on sneakers from Walmart? Because Caterpillar might sell a a few more dozers to China? The little guy is going to lose, and lose big. It will be his money bailing things out again. And its going to be over the same reason: A global economy too big to fail.

ebonywarqueen -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 7:50:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EternalHoH The little guy is going to lose, and lose big. It will be his money bailing things out again. And its going to be over the same reason: A global economy too big to fail. Which goes back to something Termyn8or said in his original post which got lost in all this NAFTA talk, but I think was really his point. "If you don't understand by now that this is all a class war, you never will." but I think the little guy is actually starting to see that.

EternalHoH -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 7:51:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 I dont know what Walmart sneakers have to do with nafta, neither Canada nor Mexico manufacture sneakers, they come from sweat shops in China, India or some other such country. Dont be an ass. NAFTA, for the context of this discussion, is just a euphemism for every bad trade deal this country ever got involved with.

Brain -> RE: Is employment a right part duex (5/19/2011 8:03:41 PM)
If you want full employment then you have to create jobs. If you want to create jobs vote for the Democrats. Remember how many jobs George Bush created; the answer is none or he lost jobs. Republicans got elected or won the House promising to create jobs and the only thing they've done is pass antiabortion legislation pandering to their base.

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