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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/22/2011 8:54:10 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

We need a single payer plan. The entire world knows it's more efficient. We're paying more (and will still in a few years) out of political posturing.

It will simply save us money in the long term.




Muse, you say "single payer" like it is some sort of magical incantation. How do you want to deal with the consequences of eliminating competition from an industry that needs to be constantly innovating? How do we prevent the drain of the best and brightest into the more lucrative, private portions of the industry? How do we maintain a quality workforce at the bottom? How do we keep it from wasting billions on fraud, and abuse? What does it do to control rising costs?

We have to do something with health care, but I need some selling on your plan. If it comes right down to it, I'd rather go with a full nationalization and we deal with the inevitable consequences to quality of care honestly, and install massive citizen oversight of the government, than to create a single till, and the government minding the store.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/22/2011 8:57:56 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

If it comes right down to it, I'd rather go with a full nationalization and we deal with the inevitable consequences to quality of care honestly, and install massive citizen oversight of the government, than to create a single till, and the government minding the store.


Works for me. That is, after all, a single payer system essentially.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/22/2011 9:06:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Works for me. That is, after all, a single payer system essentially.



LOL! I suppose it is, but not as typically envisioned by the makers of the Jazzy power chair, or the occupational therapy center that never opens the doors.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/22/2011 10:24:12 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

We need a single payer plan. The entire world knows it's more efficient. We're paying more (and will still in a few years) out of political posturing.

It will simply save us money in the long term.



I agree!

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/22/2011 10:45:54 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What to do? Move away from a monetary system altogether, and move towards a resource-based economy while employing technology to its full capabilities. Yes, I know the concept is difficult for most people to wrap their heads around, because it departs from everything we’ve known.

Money is not a panacea; it’s actually the greatest obstacle we face towards implementing a sustainable system that serves all of humanity and our environment with the love and respect they both deserve. We have the resources and the technology to do this. However, under the current system, we don’t have the money to do this. For, if there is no profit in a large-scale project, it is simply not considered.


It's an interesting essay. So how would a resource-based economy work? Assume we remove the obstacles.


Thanks for making it easier, for overcoming the obstacles seems like the hard part of the equation, doesn’t it?

Should humanity ever evolve to this point, the goal would become nothing less than a peaceful and sustainable global civilization. The onset would include updating society to up-to-date knowledge and modern methods, with a focus on the application of science and technology for human and social concern.

A resource based economy utilizes existing resources as opposed to commerce. All goods and services are available without the use of currency, credit, barter, or any form of debt or servitude. The aim of this design is to free humanity from repetitive, mundane and arbitrary occupational roles which hold no true relevance for social development.

Instead of self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power, which are dominant today… a new incentive system that is focused upon self-fulfillment, education, social awareness, and creativity would be encouraged.

The earth is abudant with resources, and our outdated methods of rationing them through montary control are no longer relevant, and are actuallycounterproductive to our very survival.

< Message edited by subfever -- 5/22/2011 10:46:31 PM >

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/23/2011 12:18:45 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		OK, but all that is pretty vague and abstract (and in your last sentence, overstated). I'm asking what such a new allocation/incentive system would look like.

One could argue that the monetary system does this, for example. The only real difficulty is that people confuse the circulatory system as the resources themselves. This is largely what I do for clients and students alike--get them to see resources, add value and facilitate the exchange. Money itself is quite easy to come by, if that's all one wants, but it's only a reflection of the resources, not the actual resources (and hence the trouble people have obtaining it). The day after some big financial event, we have all the same resources--it's just the valuation and the circulatory system that's clogged. That's what an economy is, whatever the system. If we could get credit and lending going again, much of these other problems would fall into place (the short term ones I mean...the long term ones still require action). Instead, we have the myth---yes, the myth--of national poverty, all while surrounded by wealth.

So I get where you're coming from--but you have a general idea, not yet a plan. How would we put this into practice? Even assuming no resisting obstacles, we still need some specifics about how it would work.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/23/2011 11:18:53 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

We need a single payer plan. The entire world knows it's more efficient. We're paying more (and will still in a few years) out of political posturing.
It will simply save us money in the long term.


I agree, and it was in the original healthcare act before they had to shred the thing to get the republicans to buy in to the extent they did. Interestingly, some of their grandest objections now came of that process,
  But originally, the healthcare companies were going to be given several years to clean up their acts, and then the govt single payer option would kick in.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/24/2011 6:54:32 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		It's still what's going happen eventually, either by prudent planning, or by letting the problem grow until action is forced by looming crisis.

That we have any kind of health care movement is more than I had predicted.

So...a place to start, more to do.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/24/2011 6:56:20 AM >

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/24/2011 12:19:50 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Remove or greatly restrict the prescription drug benefit.


Sure .. and while you're at it cap the prices drug companies charge (who have targeted the projected illnesses of the elderly baby boomers for the past 20 or so years of development so an elderly blue collar worker who's company's pension got raided and destroyed to enhance the bottom line for shareholders and put a few Bush family members in office don't have to pay more than say $50 of the $1200 they get a month.
  These people earned their benefits. And made a good faith agreement with the government.


We need too to work out a method of fair global pricing.

We pay more domestically, yet can't purchase abroad. We need an effective international system.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/24/2011 2:22:29 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

We need too to work out a method of fair global pricing.

We pay more domestically, yet can't purchase abroad. We need an effective international system.


Agreed ... cause right now, drug companies milk it for whatever a region's market will tolerate, and it's a real pisser for the taxpayers to pay significant amounts of the development costs here in the US and have out elderly pay the highest drug cost on the planet when that subsidized product hits the market


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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/24/2011 7:30:21 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		The same is true of medical equipment. One reason an MRI in the U.S. is fantastically more expensive than one in, say, Japan? The machine itself is vastly more expensive in the U.S. than in Japan. There's some serious price discrimination (in the economic sense of that term) going on, and we should stop it.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/24/2011 7:43:03 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Still can`t a con to explain why we`re paying double per capita for medical services here .....

The silence is deafening.

It`s like they want to get soaked and pay more.

And us too!

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/24/2011 7:53:11 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

We need a single payer plan. The entire world knows it's more efficient. We're paying more (and will still in a few years) out of political posturing.

It will simply save us money in the long term.



I agree 100%


_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/24/2011 8:39:46 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

We need too to work out a method of fair global pricing.



If US citizens paid the same for food, gas, electricity, water, housing, transportation, etc. as the countries former good paying jobs were outsourced to, declining wages wouldn't be a problem. The price of utilities and food has increased. Home prices have decreased somewhat, but landlords aren't charging less for rent. I don't see any middle class houses in decent neighborhoods selling for $30,000 or new cars priced at $5,000 so people who make $10/hr in the new service based economy can afford them. That's why I'm so against globalization. The day prices on everything are lowered to the extent I mentioned, I will be all for globalization. Until then, my current opinion stands.


_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 12:01:33 AM   
subfever


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Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		Sorry for the delay Muse. I've fallen behind from back-to-back 12 hour work days here.

quote:

OK, but all that is pretty vague and abstract (and in your last sentence, overstated). I'm asking what such a new allocation/incentive system would look like.


In terms of incentive, we would simply follow whatever path we desired in terms of education, music, art, serving humanity through science and technology, etc.; without regards to payment or obligation of any kind. Allocation will be addressed below.

quote:

Instead, we have the myth---yes, the myth--of national poverty, all while surrounded by wealth.


In my opinion, the monetary system has been a myth for a long time now. Take the Great Depression for example: You still had the same workers, willing and able to work. You still had the same natural resources. You still had the same factories. So what was the problem? An invalid monetary system!

And you are correct about the myth of national poverty. The same goes for other countries too. Every country now has debt. How can the entire world owe money to itself??? I think it’s clear that the monetary system is nothing more than an elaborate game!

quote:

So I get where you're coming from--but you have a general idea, not yet a plan. How would we put this into practice? Even assuming no resisting obstacles, we still need some specifics about how it would work.


It’s not hard to understand, once one grasps the realization that "possession" is merely restriction of access, and "a possession" is only as good as its utility. In a resource based economy, goods would be allocated as needed. Simply go to the distribution center and take what you need, and return it when you’re done… much the way we use a library today.

The goal is to provide for all human needs, in the most sustainable method possible. Is it a sustainable practice for every person to own a car, when the average person only uses the car for 45 minutes a day? Is it a sustainable practice to ship food thousands of miles to market? Is it a sustainable practice to ship bottled water to faraway places that don't have salinization capabilities? Etc., etc. No, of course not. We could do much better by employing technology to its full capability, but we can't do this under the monetary paradigm... for if there's no profit in such projects, they simply won't be considered.



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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 9:45:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The goal is to provide for all human needs, in the most sustainable method possible. Is it a sustainable practice for every person to own a car, when the average person only uses the car for 45 minutes a day? Is it a sustainable practice to ship food thousands of miles to market? Is it a sustainable practice to ship bottled water to faraway places that don't have salinization capabilities? Etc., etc. No, of course not. We could do much better by employing technology to its full capability, but we can't do this under the monetary paradigm... for if there's no profit in such projects, they simply won't be considered.


sub,

There's a disconnect between what you're saying and your evidence for it.

We have more autos than drivers. That's not the fault of the monetary system (which should really encourage the opposite). Nothing economic encourages us to ship bottled water (in fact, in Haiti, we sent the military in part because they have excellent water treatment capacity with short notice).

You seem to be confusing the score card with the score, and both accounting systems with the resource allocation system it measures. The fault isn't the reporting (the monetary system), but the allocation kinks.

Further, you keep coming back to allocation, but without any plan. Honestly, just leave it up to chance, and all will be well? Even in a pure-hearted, pure communism, nothing but good-will and sharing-attitude culture, you're ignoring a host of logistical problems. Some of these problems have incentives for solution under the monetary system--there's cash in sharing resources NOW, and that we choose not to do so in many cases is a function of choices people make that are more important to them than the money (right or wrong, absolutely or in anyone's opinion).

In short, it's not a plan.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 12:22:51 PM   
subfever


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Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

We have more autos than drivers. That's not the fault of the monetary system (which should really encourage the opposite).


Muse,

The monetary-economic system requires cyclical consumption and planned obsolescence. Without them, the system collapses. So I don't agree with you here, I think it is the direct result of the monetary system.

Also, I'm curious to see your POV on how the world can be in debt to itself. At least we seem to be in agreement that the monetary system is an elaborate game.

More on a plan later, as it is detailed and time restricts me.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 6:21:32 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I am betting debt/deficit.

Yes, but also unemployment, social security, health care, and tight credit (not the appropriately tight credit for those not qualifying, but the tight credit for credit worthy consumers and business that just isn't flowing as it should/could).

Or other financial challenges perceived.


as always another debate without identifying the foundations.
ok lets start here.  Then we will get to the solution.

everything you listed is either paid up front, ss and uc, hc will be by taxes and that get us to the merits.

tell us where this credit comes from.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 6:39:01 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

Investing in infrastructure...no, thats the private sectors' job


take out bigger loans, how does that help?  long term?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Generally yes. There may be specific circumstances where STATE support for infrastructure makes sense, and less commonly, Federal support.


well fed support spreads the burden among the states

how does that help the big picture?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:


Property taxes should not be based on the value of the structures, but rather the "Value" the city has added to the property via access to roads (based on traffic count), police, fire department response potential.


This is an interesting idea. What about school taxes?


I will add here eliminate all property taxes and move to invoices.  they are a fuckin business you call them up and you get CUSTOMER SERVICE!  Only problem you are forced to by their service at the end of a barrel of a gun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So far, others have had good ideas and realistic proposals. Have a look. Add to them if you see more possibilities.



I think we have all grown used to realistic as that which does not rock the boat and neither does it resolve anything



Looks like a need a question answered first.

CREDIT

then we go from there.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 7:16:44 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		A good start would be 40 lashes for pulling numbers out of your ass.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


So... relocate every fucking corporation to offshore destinations is a solution.

Then what would we do about the 80% unemployment crisis we would experience after we did that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

~ A constitutional amendment to end corporate personhood

~ An antitrust regime which restricts corporate size to a scale at which capitalism flourishes.  "Too big to fail is too big to exist."  Any company exceeding a certain size would be nationalized and liquidated (sold off) into smaller parts.

~ With respect to the purpose of corporations, social good should be at least equal in importance to profit.




(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 100
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