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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 10:30:05 PM

Musicmystery

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U.S. wealth exceeds $54 trillion.

If we didn't keep cutting taxes and raising spending, yes, we could just pay the debt.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 10:34:23 PM

xssve

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Tax the banks, tax their bonuses, pay down the debt: we bailed them out, they owe us, they made out like bandits,.

You can't just nationalize corporations for being too big, but you can require them to provide the same protections to their foreign workers that they're required to provide for domestic workers - who can compete with a 12 year old chained to an assembly line working for $.33 an hour?

Quit subsidizing nuclear and oil, including the Middle Eastern adventures, and see what happens in the energy market.

Yeah right, as if.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 10:34:45 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

I'm curious to see your POV on how the world can be in debt to itself. At least we seem to be in agreement that the monetary system is an elaborate game.

We're not in agreement about the monetary system, primarily because I think you mean not monetary system at all, but rather capitalism itself.

How the world is in debt to itself seems pretty obvious to me. Where did you think the funds would come from?

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/25/2011 10:36:10 PM

Musicmystery

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Remember, folks, this is the OP...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Certainly everyone agrees we face financial challenges, even as people disagree about the specifics and the causes.

What I see is a lot of hand-wringing. Let's get out of that. What are your solutions?

Please--I don't mean vague "do something about those sonnabitches" rants, nor do I mean things that just aren't feasible, whether physically or politically at this point. I mean from where we actually are, practical steps toward solutions. Things we can actually do, that will actually address the challenges.

What's your plan?

[Btw--if you feel it's hopeless, please don't post at all. Start a "why it's hopeless" thread. Thank you.]

Let's get started.

Thanks to those who've contributed their proposals.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/26/2011 3:14:21 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

U.S. wealth exceeds $54 trillion.

If we didn't keep cutting taxes and raising spending, yes, we could just pay the debt.

ok we'll play

what about the off-book-debt

where does that leave it

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/26/2011 6:26:28 AM

xssve

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We paid down the on budget debt once before, not that long as I recall, but taxes had to be raised (on the top quintile) to do it - that's the one solution that nobody wants to say.

It would take longer this time, in the Nineties we had the benefit of public investment paying off in productivity increases in ways that supply side monetary policy had very little to do with - Bush tanked most of the public investment, funneled surplus payroll taxes into surveillance (requiring an entire new bureaucracy due to a pissing contest with the FBI), armaments (from firms like Carlyle, in which pretty much the entire administration held stock), and bribery (remember those stacks of $100 bills?), while cutting general revenues, and gutting financial regulation - if he hadn't done anything but keep things on track, we'd be in pretty good shape right now.

But Clinton-Gore balanced general revenues with on budget expenditures in large part by cutting down on the perks - it was replacing glass ashtrays with plastic ones, Bics instead of Mont Blanc's, millions of tiny cuts, but they add up to real money, and that is an ongoing thing, you can't just do it once and it's done, it creeps right back in, everybody loves their perks.

At the same time, they invested in a whole host of energy related research projects, that had they remained funded, would be starting to pay off about now in technological spillover being leveraged by private industry into new generations of product lines, product lines with excellent export potential, instead of betting the house on gaining control of Iranian oil fields, which was never anything more than a long shot at best.

We were in a good position in 2000, the NASDAQ crash was a minor bump, didn't even affect the Brick and Mortar economy, now we've got crumbling infrastructure, nothing in the pipeline w/regard to energy, or anything else, biotech, etc, spooky stock markets, and an unstable labor market - there's not much of a Brick and Mortar economy left to build on. You need a 20 year plan, based on solid economic foundations, and supporting growth, like we had in 2000 - not a 4 year plan based on the election cycle and paying off your campaign contributors.

Rewind to 2000, and stick to it this time, pay down the debt, balance the budget, get back to funding basic research, especially in energy, boost the alternative energy market, because that's the market that's going to spawn jobs and export industries, quit fucking around with the Middle East - if BP wants their Oil back, let them go get it.

< Message edited by xssve -- 5/26/2011 6:27:17 AM >

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/26/2011 6:45:37 AM

kdsub

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I believe the world is not in debt…economic systems are basically all alike…they serve the same purpose everywhere. There is just ebb and flow and balance constantly changing.

Economics is just a fancy word for barter or trade of skills and services to obtain the necessities of life. And if possible to obtain a few luxuries.

There is no world debt …there is just a process of balancing individual skills and services with the demand for the necessities and luxuries of life. These accumulations and combinations of individual skills when looked at as groups make a particular economy that can be looked at as one entity.

We, meaning the US, are not producing goods and services that are in demand so there is a balance in progress...simple and basic. All the rest is rigmarole.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/26/2011 7:27:06 AM >

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/26/2011 7:53:41 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

I believe the world is not in debt…economic systems are basically all alike…they serve the same purpose everywhere. There is just ebb and flow and balance constantly changing.

Economics is just a fancy word for barter or trade of skills and services to obtain the necessities of life. And if possible to obtain a few luxuries.

There is no world debt …there is just a process of balancing individual skills and services with the demand for the necessities and luxuries of life. These accumulations and combinations of individual skills when looked at as groups make a particular economy that can be looked at as one entity.

Well said, Butch. Exactly.

quote:

We, meaning the US, are not producing goods and services that are in demand so there is a balance in progress.

Well, no...

• America does make things that other countries can't. Today, "Made in USA" is more likely to be stamped on heavy equipment or the circuits that go inside other products than the TVs, toys, clothes and other items found on store shelves.

• U.S. companies have shifted toward high-end manufacturing as the production of low-value goods moves overseas. This has resulted in lower prices for shoppers and higher profits for companies.

• When demand slumps, all types of manufacturing jobs are lost. Some higher-end jobs -- but not all -- return with good times.

Your own quick Google search will turn up more...I've posted these several times in the past, so I'll leave it be here.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/26/2011 7:55:23 AM >

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/26/2011 8:08:16 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

in the Nineties we had the benefit of public investment paying off in productivity increases in ways that supply side monetary policy had very little to do with

You mean supply side fiscal policy. Monetary policy was how Bush survived his first two recessions, as the Fed essentially (and correctly) bailed him out with sound action to balance the downswing. However, as he (and Congress) did nothing substantial to bring fiscal discipline back into balance, when the third recession hit at the end of his term, interest rates were so low that the Fed had limited options short of using more draconian tools that the current situation doesn't warrant (i.e., changing reserve requirements and so forth).

quote:

At the same time, [Clinton-Gore] invested in a whole host of energy related research projects, that had they remained funded, would be starting to pay off about now in technological spillover being leveraged by private industry into new generations of product lines, product lines with excellent export potential, instead of betting the house on gaining control of Iranian oil fields, which was never anything more than a long shot at best.

We were in a good position in 2000, the NASDAQ crash was a minor bump, didn't even affect the Brick and Mortar economy, now we've got crumbling infrastructure, nothing in the pipeline w/regard to energy, or anything else, biotech, etc, spooky stock markets, and an unstable labor market - there's not much of a Brick and Mortar economy left to build on. You need a 20 year plan, based on solid economic foundations, and supporting growth, like we had in 2000 - not a 4 year plan based on the election cycle and paying off your campaign contributors.

Agreed. The same thing happened in the 70s--Carter had several energy projects/investments going, and Reagan killed them all to cut taxes. Think were we could be today, those industries now firmly established.

That's the short term thinking that so hampered our auto industry, incidentally. They invested in short term high interest rates while companies abroad were taking 6-8% returns and thinking 20 years ahead. U.S. manufacturers ALWAYS could have built those cars, faster and better, but they let the rest of the world get a massive jump on them. Nor are they thinking now, IMO. China is going to make the first real low budget cars, a third of the cost we're paying here (and not merely because of labor cost differences, rather, cars designed to be cheaper), and once they meet the safety standards, they'll sell millions of them here. U.S. manufacturers could do it instead if they wanted. They're their own worst enemy, thinking they can forever force consumers to buy whatever the corporations decide to build. Only so much.

quote:

Rewind to 2000, and stick to it this time, pay down the debt, balance the budget, get back to funding basic research, especially in energy, boost the alternative energy market, because that's the market that's going to spawn jobs and export industries

Amen.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/26/2011 2:44:01 PM

Musicmystery

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Again, here's the deal with this thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Certainly everyone agrees we face financial challenges, even as people disagree about the specifics and the causes.

What I see is a lot of hand-wringing. Let's get out of that. What are your solutions?

Please--I don't mean vague "do something about those sonnabitches" rants, nor do I mean things that just aren't feasible, whether physically or politically at this point. I mean from where we actually are, practical steps toward solutions. Things we can actually do, that will actually address the challenges.

What's your plan?

[Btw--if you feel it's hopeless, please don't post at all. Start a "why it's hopeless" thread. Thank you.]

Let's get started.

Got a beef, grievance, vendetta, or just having a bad day....start your own thread.

Thanks.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/26/2011 6:50:23 PM

Musicmystery

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Here's the OP.

Thanks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Certainly everyone agrees we face financial challenges, even as people disagree about the specifics and the causes.

What I see is a lot of hand-wringing. Let's get out of that. What are your solutions?

Please--I don't mean vague "do something about those sonnabitches" rants, nor do I mean things that just aren't feasible, whether physically or politically at this point. I mean from where we actually are, practical steps toward solutions. Things we can actually do, that will actually address the challenges.

What's your plan?

[Btw--if you feel it's hopeless, please don't post at all. Start a "why it's hopeless" thread. Thank you.]

Let's get started.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/26/2011 8:16:26 PM

TheHeretic

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Now here is something else we can play with, Muse. I mentioned some radical entitlement reform earlier, and finding creative ways to knock down our credit card bills. How much more bang could we be getting for our infrastructure buck if we waived/minimized the agonizingly long and expensive regulatory and appeals processes? If we want to send a 200 mile an hour train through a charming small town, send them a damn eminent domain notice on their peace and quiet, and start turning dirt.

People have mentioned big infrastructure, and I can be down for that. Building something big that benefits everybody is one of those essential functions of government. I think the way we go about it is an enormous clusterfuck though.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/27/2011 7:31:09 AM

Musicmystery

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Rich,

Why would this be necessary? Aren't high speed trains essentially going to follow existing train beds?

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/27/2011 7:37:47 AM

kdsub

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Then what do we do with the existing trains during construction?...Most major lines are single track outside of cities I think. I'll bet there will be quite a bit of new land needed as well as many crossings closed...Can’t have a chicken truck stalled on a 200 MPH line.

Myself I would much rather see investment in alternative energy than fast rail… which do you think would be most useful?

Butch

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/27/2011 9:30:45 AM

Musicmystery

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Could be, Butch. I've no way to know.

I agree given an either/or choice (and I don't think it's either/or), I'd probably go with alternative energy too (depending on what it is).

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/27/2011 7:48:46 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

How much more bang could we be getting for our infrastructure buck if we waived/minimized the agonizingly long and expensive regulatory and appeals processes?

What regulatory/appeals processes?

When NYS wanted my grandfather's land for a state park, they wrote him a check and told him to pack.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/27/2011 10:00:41 PM

TheHeretic

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I'm along an alignment, Muse. Well, maybe. The latest is that they are thinking about dumping years worth of work, for a potential route they discarded long ago I'm afraid the good stuff is in the local paper, and they don't have a site I can link to. California voted billions in indebtedness to get this thing going, what we've had for the last three years have been guys in suits that cost more than my mortgage and both car payments, showing up bi-annually with maps that don't show anything.

What regulations and appeals process? EIRs and lawsuits on behalf of the tortoises, when someone doesn't like the findings, just for an example. Surely you are aware of the means employed by the environmentalists to stop things they don't like. (Of course, those are the same environmentalists who think all the hills around here will look much better when covered in windmills, and that our vast open horizon needs many more miles of high tension lines draped across them)

The way it went for Grandpa isn't the way it gets done now. Unless they just want to give the land to a commercial developer of course...

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/27/2011 10:13:09 PM >

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/27/2011 10:08:30 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Rich,

Why would this be necessary? Aren't high speed trains essentially going to follow existing train beds?

In some places, sure. Why not? In other places, there's no way in hell 130 year old designs and solutions are going to work. Here's a rather severe example.

Attachment (1)

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/28/2011 6:38:12 AM

Musicmystery

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OK, you've convinced me!

Thanks Rich.

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RE: So what's your plan? - 5/28/2011 6:56:45 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Investing in infrastructure...no, thats the private sectors' job

This is exactly why this guy is a raving moron and cannot be taken seriously.

The private sector is going to repair our crumbling bridges, levees and sewage systems?

Are you really this dense?

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