RE: about jeaulousy.. (Full Version)

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NakedOnMyChain -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:01:15 PM)

I'd be happy to.  I'll even provide you two different scenarios in this debate.

*The "Glad I Got Out" Scenario*
I dated a man for three years who cheated on me numerous times.  I couldn't prove it for the longest time, but I always had this feeling of jealousy gnawing at me when I'd see him talking to particular people.  I began to suspect things from the jealousy I encountered, as it's really not in my nature.  I did a little bit of investigation and proved that he'd cheated on me with many different women.  I packed up and got out.  It was honestly one of the best things I've ever done for myself.

*The "Learning From Experience" Scenario*

I met my husband shortly after breaking up with the above mentioned man.  Needless to say, I had some serious trust issues.  I became jealous when he would talk to specific other women, such as his ex-girlfriend.  Instead of letting the jealousy eat at me for an extended period, I brought it up.  He insisted on introducing me to his ex, and we formed a great friendship from it.  Because of jealousy and the ability to deal with it correctly by getting it out in the open, he proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I can trust him.  He and I have been able to grow from it, and I've made a great friend in the process.

Honestly, can you tell me that you've never been jealous?  Can you also tell me that you've never grown from being jealous and dealing with it properly?  The way I see it, a little bit of jealousy keeps me humble and keeps me striving for the best, as long as I don't let it control me.  It reminds me that I'm human.  You can argue that anger, happiness or love would do the same thing.  But let's face it, it's not the same thing.  Jealousy makes you feel a completely different way than any other emotion, therefore you experience completely different things, making you grow in a completely different way.

Edited because I like being precise, and I wasn't.



puella -> RE: about jealousy.. (5/12/2006 7:03:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

This article backs up My statement perfectly, and it comes from the New York Public Library.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/jealousy.html



You are just supporting what I said.... Did you look up the woman in the 'Anarchist Archive' who wrote this?  She has absolutely no education, certification, training or qualifications to speak on legitimate psychology. 

You refuse to deal with a submissive who comes to you with her problems of her jealousy.. and simply dismiss her.. that is fine.. but to maintain that it is a documented fact that jealousy is a psychological disorder is not only incorrect, it is very destructive to those who seek honest answers as opposed to lecturing tirades of your personal desires.



BitaTruble -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:05:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

This article backs up My statement perfectly, and it comes from the New York Public Library.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/jealousy.html



This is an op ed written by a woman who died 65 years ago. How does that back up your statement? There is no empirical data to support it, no scientific analysis, nothing. It just someone whose opinion meshes with your own. Nothing of 'fact' about it.

Celeste



SubtleCuriosity6 -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:35:53 PM)

I believe that jealousy is a part of our animal instincts...as is sex.   Learning to reason out what makes us jealous and work through it is what makes us intelligent human beings.  Everyone has had the feeling, even Sir Kenin whether he chooses to believe it or not. 



SirKenin -> RE: about jealousy.. (5/12/2006 7:41:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

This article backs up My statement perfectly, and it comes from the New York Public Library.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/jealousy.html



You are just supporting what I said.... Did you look up the woman in the 'Anarchist Archive' who wrote this?  She has absolutely no education, certification, training or qualifications to speak on legitimate psychology. 

You refuse to deal with a submissive who comes to you with her problems of her jealousy.. and simply dismiss her.. that is fine.. but to maintain that it is a documented fact that jealousy is a psychological disorder is not only incorrect, it is very destructive to those who seek honest answers as opposed to lecturing tirades of your personal desires.


I did not say it was a psychological disorder.  Do not put words in My mouth please.



puella -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:43:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

If someone is jealous it is because they have mental issues.  That is all there is to it. 


Okay.. how about your own words?



SirKenin -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:44:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubtleCuriosity6

I believe that jealousy is a part of our animal instincts...as is sex.   Learning to reason out what makes us jealous and work through it is what makes us intelligent human beings.  Everyone has had the feeling, even Sir Kenin whether he chooses to believe it or not. 


I used to be jealous, yes, certainly, and it was destructive.  I learned from it alright.  I learned, no matter how people try to excuse it, that it is a complete waste of time and energy and does little more than destroy.  It eats away at your very insides, and there is noone out there that can prove to the contrary.  I now never get jealous.  Ever.  And I have not for years.

If you have to learn from jealousy that means that you have not come to grips with yourself and you have some personal growth left to do.



SirKenin -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:46:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

This article backs up My statement perfectly, and it comes from the New York Public Library.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/jealousy.html



This is an op ed written by a woman who died 65 years ago. How does that back up your statement? There is no empirical data to support it, no scientific analysis, nothing. It just someone whose opinion meshes with your own. Nothing of 'fact' about it.

Celeste


Then do the search for yourself.  I just picked one article out of thousands, and they all say the same thing.  Are you going to call them all liars?  Rather presumptuous of you, no?  Have you done any research on this?   I have.  This is not the first forum I have debated this topic.  I grant there are other opinions, of course, and I will not say they are not valid.  I just wanted to present what I found out through My research on the topic.



SirKenin -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:48:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Hmm. What was all that bullshit I was reading about doms supposed to be caring, ethical, moral and full of integrity? It must have been in a comic somewhere.


What was it that I read about Doms having hard limits?  Well there is Mine.  If you do not like it, I would have to say tough beans.  Do not date Me.



mixielicous -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:49:17 PM)

i have only suffered jealousy when there is a lack of trust.



SirKenin -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:51:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

I'd be happy to.  I'll even provide you two different scenarios in this debate.

*The "Glad I Got Out" Scenario*
I dated a man for three years who cheated on me numerous times.  I couldn't prove it for the longest time, but I always had this feeling of jealousy gnawing at me when I'd see him talking to particular people.  I began to suspect things from the jealousy I encountered, as it's really not in my nature.  I did a little bit of investigation and proved that he'd cheated on me with many different women.  I packed up and got out.  It was honestly one of the best things I've ever done for myself.

*The "Learning From Experience" Scenario*

I met my husband shortly after breaking up with the above mentioned man.  Needless to say, I had some serious trust issues.  I became jealous when he would talk to specific other women, such as his ex-girlfriend.  Instead of letting the jealousy eat at me for an extended period, I brought it up.  He insisted on introducing me to his ex, and we formed a great friendship from it.  Because of jealousy and the ability to deal with it correctly by getting it out in the open, he proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I can trust him.  He and I have been able to grow from it, and I've made a great friend in the process.

Honestly, can you tell me that you've never been jealous?  Can you also tell me that you've never grown from being jealous and dealing with it properly?  The way I see it, a little bit of jealousy keeps me humble and keeps me striving for the best, as long as I don't let it control me.  It reminds me that I'm human.  You can argue that anger, happiness or love would do the same thing.  But let's face it, it's not the same thing.  Jealousy makes you feel a completely different way than any other emotion, therefore you experience completely different things, making you grow in a completely different way.

Edited because I like being precise, and I wasn't.



See, this proves My point.  You did not need jealousy to come to those conclusions.  You took something and internalized it, letting it eat you alive.  The proper way to learn is to be intuitive.  Use intuition and wisdom to question the integrity of the relationship.  If you had simply used your head you would have come up to the same conclusions.

As it was you wasted time, effort and energy for nothing.



Dustyn -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 7:53:46 PM)

I've never been jealous over people that didn't matter to me.  Granted, I've only run into one person that couldn't fathom the concept of WHY I was jealous, but then again, she was a self centered pain in the ass who still has no regard for anyone else in her life other than herself and her own pleasures.  I figure she'll eventually pay the piper for her actions.

Jealousy is as natural as breathing.  Dismissing it is as dangerous as holding your breath indefinately.  I, personally, have always considered it a warning sign that something isn't right somewhere in the universe.

- Dustyn



SirKenin -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 8:03:07 PM)

I do not think jealousy is natural.  If you have to be jealous, something is seriously wrong.  The thing that people miss is that the problem is not with other people.  It is with them.  They like to point the finger at everybody else and say "They made me jealous", but that is irresponsible.  You are not taking responsibility for your own actions.  You ALONE are responsible for your emotions and what you do with them.  Nobody MAKES you do anything.  This includes anger by the way.

See, I deal with situations that would trigger jealousy in other people differently.  I think the problem through, ask the right questions and generally use My head.  I find I come up with the right decision without wasting any time, effort and energy.



mixielicous -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 8:09:54 PM)

would that make anger and love not natural as well? b/c they ARE all emotions

whilst is is true no one can *make* you anything, they most certinaly can feed the fires, no? someone with a boy who snaps his phone shut when she enters the room and will not disclose information, she has no reason to be paranoid?

paranoia feeds jealousy.. what did he do to make her feel safe?



puella -> RE: about jealousy.. (5/12/2006 8:16:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I do not think jealousy is natural.  If you have to be jealous, something is seriously wrong. 




Jealousy is an emotion... there is no 'have to' or choice or manufacturing and prioritizing about it.  That is like saying.... happiness is not normal. If you have to be happy, something is seriously wrong. Or even.. I do not think sadness is natural.  If you have to be sad, something is seriously wrong.

Emotions are not right or wrong.  They just are.  They are not something you can manufacture.  They happen organically out of a response to many stimuli.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin


The thing that people miss is that the problem is not with other people.  It is with them.  They like to point t he finger at everybody else and say "They made me jealous", but that is irresponsible.  You are not taking responsibility for your own actions. 



Lets work backward in your statement there.  You are not taking responsibility for your own actions... Jealousy is not an action or a behavior.  It is an emotion.  How you deal with your jealousy is a behavior or action.  And I would agree that a person is responsible for their own actions.. but that has nothing to do with the actual emotional response, jealousy.

They like to point the finger and say.. They made me jealous.... I don't know how you can speak for everyone and how the entire population of 'mental deficients' (as you would apparently term them from your first post) or  people who actually admit to experiencing the emotion, jealousy.  I know that jealousy has hardly ever made me do anything besides weep or beg my owner to help me deal with the feelings which I felt I could not control.  I only speak for myself... not a mass of people I claim to have no connection with on this issue.

...The problem is not with other people... Well.. its not if you are all by yourself in a relationship, however.. it's then not a relationship, is it?  If you commit to a relationship with another person, good and bad, strength and weakness.. are you not a part of their lives.. and especially as a Dominant, are you not in some way fundamentally obligated to participation in their lives and development?  Like it or not, when sharing a life and relationship together... you share not just the joys but the problems as well.



truesub4u -> RE: about jealousy.. (5/12/2006 8:44:02 PM)

Settles down on the couch... hot cup of coffee.... smokes..... props feet up... interesting reading here going back and forth....

To the OP... been there... seen the damage... been many a year ago... got no time for it... takes two to tangle... I just laugh while watching him pack his shit up. I smile and tell him I hope you hve a great life somewhere else with someone else who wants to play your game... because that's one game... I won't play.

Sirkenin.... One might be very well responsible for their own actions... but when some idiot sets out to force that little monster out... one can either do it or not.. that's being in control of ones actions... but less we forget the one that plays the game tht causes it all to begin with. I've seen ones that's never shown emotions at all before... get pushed... either it be jealousy... love... anger... sorrow..so it's not just on the one showing the emotion... it's  also on the one trying to pull that emotion out in someone  on purpose.



BreakingGlass -> RE: about jealousy.. (5/12/2006 8:58:09 PM)

It's only recently that I've been able to understand why I've had certain feelings for a while.  But the strange thing is that I only felt jealousy...truly crushing, overwhelming jealousy...when I realized my submissive tendencies and a situation arose that I...well, let's just say I never knew jealousy could affect me so strongly.

How did I deal with it?  It took time, and his understanding about why I was feeling the way I was feeling.  I didn't understand the emotion overpowering me as it did; he assured me it was nothing to be ashamed about when I spoke my mind to him.

Is the jealousy still there?  Yes, to an extent.  Does it still hurt?  No, for the msot part.  I was ashamed of the feeling (it was my reaction to a situation he did not cause, and it is a situation that cannot be changed); he let me know it was nothing to be ashamed about. 



cloudboy -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 9:15:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I do not think jealousy is natural. If you have to be jealous, something is seriously wrong.


Here is something I read recently on jealously.

"Jealously is one of the least studied of all human emotions. It does not even appear in the index of Daniel Goldman's groundbreaking book on emotional literacy, EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE. Very little scientific data on jealously exists and what there is deals mostly with the attitudes and thoughts assciated with jealously rather than the emotion itself. Researchers seem to agree that on a cognitive behavioral level, jealousy is a reaction to a partner's real or imagined experience with a third party and that jealously is more likely to occur in a person who is both dependent and insecure."

--Deborah Anapol, Polyamory The New Love Without Limits

In her chapter on jealousy, she outlines different sub types of it:

Possesive Jealousy
Exclusion Jealousy
Competition Jealousy
Ego Jealousy
Fear Jealousy

Although there is no cure for jealousy, the author recommends that couples experiencing it try to negotiate a solution and openly acknowledge the existence of jealousy between them.

To me, the core problem and danger of jealousy is how it undermines trust and openess. On the other hand, by building up an even higher trust level, I think one can successfully manage and negotiate jealousy in a relationship.

One reason that I am not a jealous person by nature is that I don't ever feel that anything is "all about me" and also I firmly believe that I can never be everything to another person. Next, I believe sharing of and some competition for a beloved's affections is the true high road for relationships.



MistressLove999 -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 9:22:39 PM)

I too sat here and read thru all of the replies.
How so very easy for some of us to sit on our thrones and say jealousy is petty blah blah blah.
If your the person who is jealous though, it can be such an ugly feeling. The pain unbearable. 
I do remember it, wow what a lifetime ago. The first marriage at such a young age UGH, and him screwing any/every thing that had a hole, sure I was jealous and found out years later(when I walked away) that my every worry and concern was correct, it wasn't me being over jealous, it was all of his lies and cheating.
Some times these things slap you in the face, and sometimes it's in your gut instincts. Trust me I tried very very hard to make that marriage work (waste of 10yrs).
Finally grew up, smartened up and moved on, hubby number 2, much different happily married now for 20yrs, we grew together in such a way that we were able to discuss our sexual preferences.
Now we are both in the lifestyle, both have our own subs, and no, it has nothing to do with our love and trust of each other, call me crazy  it works for me.
Also, want to add I have 2 subs, we get together as our lives/schedules allow. Yes, they know of each other and I tell them both I don't compare you to the other, I adore you both equally. I think being honest and up front helps.



BitaTruble -> RE: about jeaulousy.. (5/12/2006 9:30:17 PM)

quote:

Then do the search for yourself. 


OK, but I'm not doing your homework for you, so don't think I'm going to try to 'prove' your points for you. I'm going to try to disprove them. Fair enough?

quote:

 I just picked one article out of thousands, and they all say the same thing.  Are you going to call them all liars?


First of all, I called no one a liar. Unless you would care to site where I said that, I'll accept an apology from you anytime you have the balls to give it. Second, please forgive me if I find it rather hard to swallow that you actually read thousands of articles (as opposed to actual research papers) to know that they 'all' say the same thing. Is that a fact or a fabrication? Do they really 'all' say the same thing because it seems to me that would be thousands of violations of copyright law if they, in fact, ALL say the same thing.


quote:

Rather presumptuous of you, no? 


Do you even know what that word means? If you did, you wouldn't have used it.

quote:

 Have you done any research on this? 


Yes.

quote:

 I have. 


If you say so. 

quote:

This is not the first forum I have debated this topic. 


This has no meaning and no weight. I have no idea why you thought it necessary to include it. I've debated Heaven and Hell hundreds of times in various forums. Does that make me an expert of the soul?

quote:

 I grant there are other opinions, of course, and I will not say they are not valid.  I just wanted to present what I found out through My research on the topic.


Fair enough. However, there are more than just 'opinions' on this topic. I'm surprised your extensive research didn't turn that up. What I saw you present were opinions stated as facts. You provided, as I stated, no empirical evidence, no scientific analysis to prove any of the statements made by yourself OR the author of the link you provided.

So, here is what I offer.

First - my source:

David M. Buss, Ph.D., is a professor of psychology at the University of Texas, Austin, and previously taught at Harvard University and the University of Michigan. He is the author of the highly praised The Evolution of Desire and is internationally known for his expertise on sex, emotions, and the strategies of human mating. He lives in Austin, Texas.  
Next - his research via two reviews of his book on the subject:

From Library Journal
Buss (psychology, Univ. of Texas; The Evolution of Desire) has written a well-researched, accessible book on jealousy targeted at the layperson. Buss sees jealousy as a human trait that has evolved in the same way that fear and anger have. He believes jealousy is a necessary emotion to help men and women remain faithful and to be aware of a partner's fidelity. Supporting his conclusions with research surveys and examples of patients in therapy, Buss covers the causes and effects of jealousy, from suspicion and spying to violence and revenge. Slightly repetitive but thought provoking and well written, this book is sure to appeal to a wide audience. Recommended for public libraries.
-Elizabeth Caulfield Felt, Washington State Univ. Lib., Pullman
Copyright 2000 Reed Business Information, Inc.

From Kirkus Reviews
A provocative analysis of the role that jealousy plays in romantic relationships. Based on studies conducted in 37 countries across six continents, Buss (Psychology/Univ. of Texas; The Evolution of Desire, 1994) contends that jealousy is an indispensable component of all long-term relationships: It keeps mates together by sparking passion and commitment. (These studies include interviews with 10,000 subjects.)

And just in case you'd like to see the relationship values of his subject material, a link to an interview.


the evolutionist: David Buss

OK, Sir K. There's my argument to counter your opinions. Now, will you kindly answer my question which I posed in my first post to you? How does the link you presented support your statements given there is no empirical evidence presented, there are no scientific analysis, the piece was written by a woman who died 65 years ago and she fronts opinions as 'truism' according to her own words. Just to remind you of the statement you made which prompted your link.

"If someone is jealous it is because they have mental issues." Those were your words and I see nothing of science to back them up as fact. Let the debate begin. ;)

Celeste




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