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Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 1:47:55 PM

samboct

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It may be time to think again...

In the April 8, 2011 issue of Science there's an article which I found rather thought provoking. Researchers have taken scans of some 55 mummies (yes, Egyptian mummies) and looked at their circulatory system. They got data from 42 out of 55 mummies IIRC. What they found was pretty surprising- that the people suffered from atherosclerosis (clogged arteries) even back then. And the average age of the mummies was someone about 40 years old. And although the rich folks did eat cakes sweetened with honey, they didn't have McDs, trans fats, modified food starches, or Oreos. Plus, these folks probably got plenty of exercise- don't know of many mummies where the human weighed 150 kg.

For years, we've been told that we should lose weight, eat low fat diets, and get plenty of exercise to avoid clogged arteries. Here's a culture from several thousand years ago that took that advice- heck they didn't even have beef! (don't think they did) and they're still showing up with clogged arteries at age 40.

The researchers came up with the idea that maybe what's going on is some type of virus. But it really makes you think about our current obsession with food. It looks like an all natural diet may not be the best thing for you either...

Sam (who is dreaming of a nice thick hamburger and a chocolate malt...)

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 1:49:38 PM

Arpig

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Is what I'm eating killing me? Well seeing as I'm diabetic and I'm eating cookies....

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 3:16:25 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

It looks like an all natural diet may not be the best thing for you either..

I can't help but think all the unnatural stuff we ingest has something to do with the enormous cancer rate so I'll stick with my philosophy that natural is better.

Interesting about the clogged arteries though.

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 3:27:46 PM

samboct

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The cancer rate is also really tough to explain. Some types of cancer such as multiple myeloma are definitely ticking upwards- and I think that's age adjusted as well. Melanomas too- which since we're spending less time in the sun is something of a puzzle. The cancer rates tied to diet are typically those of the digestive system, and I'm pretty sure that colon cancer rates are going to increase probably due to the high fat diet. However, they've been dropping for awhile because of a reduction in tobacco use, so this is rather unclear at the moment. I'm trying to recall if other types of cancer such as kidney cancer may have shown a protective role played by a higher fat diet though.

The more I dig into cancer mechanisms (I did my graduate work in this field back in the 80s), the more puzzling the causes become. I'm coming to adopt the theory that cancer is more a disease of the immune system- and that when the immune system fails, there's a lot of opportunities for cancer to become established, but that we're really always dealing with some carcinogens at one time or another and it's impossible to eliminate them all. Makes you wonder if we're underestimating the role of mcyobacteria or viruses....

Sam

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 3:43:31 PM

NuevaVida

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I think we underestimate a lot, actually. I think you could be right regarding the high fat diets but I'm thinking also about all the chemicals we put in foods - colorings, flavorings, preservatives, etc. We are ingesting things our bodies do not naturally process. I'm sure most of us adapt just fine to the chemicals, but perhaps many do not - hence the cancer situation.

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 3:59:49 PM

samboct

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Well, remember that there is no single compound that causes all types of cancers. we develop cancer by our tissues being exposed to carcinogens and then having the cells which have been affected not get caught by the immune system. So if we're going to get cancer of the liver for example, then our liver has to have come in contact with something nasty- you don't get liver cancer by spending too much time in the sun for example. So if what we're eating is giving us cancer- well, it'd have to show up as stomach cancer, colon cancer, kidney...etc.

While I am no fan of processed foods- there's more going on here than just food coloring. Our environmental exposure to solvents has been decreasing a lot-and yet, that doesn't seem to have shown up in the cancer stats. And people who eat healthy aren't seeing such a wonderful protective effect either...

Sam

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 6:14:00 PM

Termyn8or

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I don't buy it. Many reasons. Later after I eat maybe I will give deaitls.

T^T

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 6:33:01 PM

juliaoceania

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Were they related to each other genetically?

Edited to add I realized one of my questions was redundant

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/24/2011 6:34:05 PM >

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 8:19:55 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

While I am no fan of processed foods- there's more going on here than just food coloring. Our environmental exposure to solvents has been decreasing a lot-and yet, that doesn't seem to have shown up in the cancer stats. And people who eat healthy aren't seeing such a wonderful protective effect either...

Sam

Yes but we've also added radiated foods, GMO and we still eat pesticides, antibiotics and hormones in our foods. Who's to say what the combination of these things does to us?

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 8:26:00 PM

Hippiekinkster

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A New Way to Look at Cancer

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 8:41:40 PM

heartcream

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Why cant we/THEY stop poisoning our food and our planet?

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 8:42:52 PM

NuevaVida

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Thanks for that link. There's a lot to read on there, and it looks interesting. I'll check it out.

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 8:45:08 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Thanks for that link. There's a lot to read on there, and it looks interesting. I'll check it out.

You're welcome. I'm all about sharing knowledge.

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 8:53:51 PM

samboct

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Hi Julia

AFAIK-they took what they could find in terms of mummys- which means there may be some relations, but most of them not.

NV- Problem is that those things are in very small amounts- and actually most organic compounds aren't toxic. I'm not worried about GMOs- there really aren't many species grown on this planet that we can eat- we're really not bred for vegetarians- and we've had to cultivate them anyhow. Don't see why a few extra genes is going to do that much. Irradiated food doesn't stay radioactive- so again, there's not much going on here that would worry me. Recall that prior to the 20th century- a lot of foods were eaten while they were spoiling, hence the need for spices. Pesticides- again- too small amounts and most of them are actually pretty intensively tested before use. People taking baths in the stuff should worry- but we consume minute quantities. Yes, I know that stuff can accumulate in the food chain- but thats largely metals.

HK- Didn't plow through all that. The author is correct in that cancer treatments haven't gotten very far- to date. But a recent issue of Science has shown that we now know a hell of a lot more about the disease from when I was in grad school- there have been some impressive roadmaps that show the signalling pathways of cancer cells and the steps that cells take to get transformed.

A lot of the problem is regulatory- the FDA hasn't really figured out how to deal with cocktails. And like AIDS- to have a long term cancer treatment requires a cocktail, otherwise the damn disease figures out a way around the drug. Yes, most cancer treatments use cocktails, but often the main component is something like 5 FU (fluorurocil) which interferes with DNA synthesis- of all cells. It's a lousy way to treat cancer- that's what they were using back when I was in grad school.

I could go on for awhile- but this is already a major digression from the original topic- and it'd be a lot of typing.

Sam

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/24/2011 9:39:20 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Hi Julia

AFAIK-they took what they could find in terms of mummys- which means there may be some relations, but most of them not.

If they were all royal mummies, they may well be very inter-related.. which would skew the results for the rest of us running around on planet earth.

There is genetics and environment. One you have no control over, the other you do, and they often work together. The message to take from this is that if you have a certain genetic profile you need to be even more proactive with your health. The message is not that it doesn't matter because you might be screwed no matter what.

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/25/2011 1:00:39 AM

TheRaptorJesus

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Oh hey, some Egyptians had clogged arteries...

Let me go eat some fucking garbage because I like to throw logic and sensible thinking out the window because of negligible details.

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/25/2011 2:36:35 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
It looks like an all natural diet may not be the best thing for you either...

True, but then how do you explain that people who got stents have a massive plague build up despite being put on medication, yet people who change their diet and cut out animal fats and go on a more vegetarian diet have dramatically less plague build up, even without taking medication...

Certain foods are known to lower cholesterol (oats, garlic, etc.), often changing eating habits can make much more of a difference than just popping pills, it's just a lot of people don't want to change their life-style at all and think that taking pills and all that is the easy solution, without realizing that they all have side effects...

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/25/2011 2:43:06 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

True, but then how do you explain that people who got stents have a massive plague build up despite being put on medication, yet people who change their diet and cut out animal fats and go on a more vegetarian diet have dramatically less plague build up, even without taking medication...

This may be true for some, but not for all... which I think is the point of the article. I dont believe any scientist would recommend tossing out a healthy diet.

But, just like diets, one doesnt fit all. What may be a healthy diet for someone may kill the next person.

I believe this should be seen as a great discovery which will get many thinking along those lines.

quote:

Certain foods are known to lower cholesterol (oats, garlic, etc.), often changing eating habits can make much more of a difference than just popping pills, it's just a lot of people don't want to change their life-style at all and think that taking pills and all that is the easy solution, without realizing that they all have side effects...

I have seen diets work on some people.. and not on others who then take medication... and sometimes even that doesnt work.

We become complacent when science regards something as a "leading cause". Well, sure it seems that way... and often it is.. but not in every case.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 5/25/2011 2:46:11 AM >

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/25/2011 3:29:58 AM

LadyConstanze

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Hence my comment that "OFTEN" certain changes make a huge difference...

I've been in close proximity of people who had heart surgeries and seen more studies about the results and changes the diets made than I care to remember (a PhD student was a lot cheaper than using a language secretary or a translator, so tons of that went over my desk), off the top of my head, with drugs about 50% of the people with stents had dramatic plague build up, the groups who had changes in their diet, about 5 to 10% had plague build up, but that tended to be less dramatic than the group on medication. The cardiologists were aware of that fact, but it never gained massive publicity, because of the vetted interest of the pharmaceutical industry to peddle their products...

In a lot of cases medication is required, but in far more cases a simple - sometimes drastic - change in your life-style can help. In case you're clinically obese and eat a lot of junk food (saturated fats, salts, etc.), possibly even smoke, it would make more sense to change your life-style dramatically instead of demanding the magic pill that will lower your cholesterol levels, so you can live a bit longer and ruin your joints and need joint replacement as well...

One of the problems seems to be that docs have an alotted 5 to 10 minutes for patients and it's much easier to just keep them quiet with a prescription than trying to convince them that they should try something that might be uncomfortable for them. If the life-style change doesn't bring the desired results, bring on the medication, but it would make a lot more sense to give that a try first.

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RE: Think what you eat is killing you? - 5/25/2011 7:15:39 AM

samboct

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LC

OK- just to be a contrarian- anybody wanna explain the Eskimo's diet and how those folks aren't keeling over from heart disease by age 35? Essentially no vegetables, very high fat-no grains either...

There's a joke somewhere on the 'net that deals with this one- here it is:

The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

On the other hand, the French eat a lot of fat and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

Conclusion: Eat and drink what you like. It's speaking English that kills you.

To your point that docs prefer to give out pills than try to get the human to change diet...

I think you're correct when you say that lifestyle modification (diet/exercise) should be a first line of defense rather than pills. The reason it isn't is likely due to lack of compliance.

Back in grad school, we learned about some of the issues about treating adult onset diabetes. Everybody wanted to see what was causing the disease. So they gathered a cohort of people who had the disease and put them in a hospital where they could control their caloric intake. What happened? In a month or so, most of the people that had signed up for the study no longer showed symptoms- their diet was causing their ailments. So a few years go by, and they try again to gather a cohort of people with adult onset diabetes (think this is type 2). Who do they get? A bunch of the same folks who had been in the first trial. Goddamn humans will continue to eat what they want even if it makes them sick. Same thing about smokers who are on oxygen- yet still smoking cigarettes.

Physicians figure that most people will not follow behavior modification advice. I suspect that the pragmatic approach- i.e. paying somebody $50 a month to stay at a healthier weight would be a lot cheaper and more effective than the damn pills, but try and get that one through Congress...

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 5/25/2011 7:18:34 AM >

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