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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 9:42:07 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

This comes across to Me like the parents are using the kids to prove a point.  One that was their parent's idea, rather than the children themselves.  I'm not a big fan of parents using their children as pawns.


This.

I applaud the perceived intent but damn...


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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 9:47:34 AM   
Phoenixpower


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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 2:13:18 PM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110524/ts_yblog_thelookout/parents-keep-childs-gender-under-wraps


From the article:

"We've decided not to share Storm's sex for now--a tribute to freedom and choice in place of limitation, a stand up to what the world could become in Storm's lifetime (a more progressive place? ...)," it said.

So - to clarify - sexual orientation is not a choice but gender can be. Got it.



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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 6:01:50 PM   
Muttling


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Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		This sounds a lot like the 1970's craze believing that gender is a learned trait and the female/ male brains are born the same.    This has long been proven to be untrue and brain development differs as soon as the fetus starts producing hormones.   

PLEASE NOTE - This is not to say one is better than the other at all, but the differences are apparent at a very early age.  Just look to see where this child is developmentally in a few more months and you'll know the gender.   Girls almost always grow developmentally faster than boys, if the child is girl...it is quite likely that she'll be starting to walk, talk, and get object permanency far more quickly than her male counter parts.

Females and males are different, it goes far beyond what is between the legs as the mother describes it in the interview.   Accepting, adjusting, and coping with those differences is part of what a parent helps a child to learn.  

It was mentioned above that a 5 year old doesn't care if you're a boy or girl, I would ask the person making this comment when was the last time they took their child to day care and watched how the children play? Kids get it at a very early age, long before 5.  I'm not talking sexual, just that there is a difference.  You can see that difference in the 1 year olds with the girls playing at a more developmentally advanced level with better communication, motor skills, and the beginnings of cognitive thinking.   I teach high school and continue to see it (especially in high school freshmen.)   The average maturity level of my female students is quite a bit higher than the average maturity of my male students.   It's not a hard and fast rule, but is easily true for 75% of the kids I have worked with.....possibly 90%.

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 6:34:02 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Legally they cant do this.


One has to indicate sex on govt documents.    He wont be able to get a drivers license if he doesnt.

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 6:52:37 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Legally they cant do this.


One has to indicate sex on govt documents.    He wont be able to get a drivers license if he doesnt.



No you don't. It's an optional question that you do not have to answer along with nationality and age.


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 7:47:24 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Driver's license requires sex, age (by way of birthdate), weight, height, eye color and whether or not glasses on needed. These are NOT options.

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 7:47:46 PM   
Termyn8or


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Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

But what about the prom ?

Really I have no problem with this, much. I'm just thinking of the future. How long ya figure this can go on. Ummmm, and about registering for the draft. Things like that.

T^T

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 8:26:42 PM   
Muttling


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Joined: 9/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

But what about the prom ?

Really I have no problem with this, much. I'm just thinking of the future. How long ya figure this can go on. Ummmm, and about registering for the draft. Things like that.

T^T


The parents are making this a short term issue, the gender will be evident long before registering for the draft or drivers license are an issue.

This said, the most important years for self identity are the earliest years.   Children are not adults and do need some guidance in this part of development.   Key word being SOME, they do choose their identities and that comes out in the early teen years when they start to identify as individuals instead of parts of the family.    The first 5 years of life prepares them for the most difficult 1 to 2 years that occur in teen/pre-teen.    These parents aren't giving any direction to this child, they are leaving it up to an infant to just figure it all out for themselves.   I would be quite interested to see a follow up on all of their kids in their teenage years and 20's.  

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 8:41:53 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I think it is a mistake.   

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/25/2011 8:49:45 PM   
Tantriqu


Posts: 2026
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		Bet it's a girl. And the parents having two boys has absolutely no determination of the sex of any other children; completely independent events.
Besides, it will all become evident by puberty, and I'm sure some sad, sad Globe editor will pay someone to 'out' the child by pre-school.
Just think of all the couples who give their girl a traditionally male name like 'Brook' or 'Sam' or 'Jamie' because consciously or subconsciously they wanted a boy.
I feel sorry for the kid, but this can remind us of our stereotyping: when you think of a nurse, do you think of a dude, or a chick for a firefighter? Wow, really? Good for you.

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/26/2011 1:57:31 AM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline 		Dr. Drew Pinsky dedicated his show last night on this situation. I felt that Lady Pact's post somewhat echoed the words of a child psychologist on the show. She said the parents were conducting a social experiment using their child and if the experiment fails, it will be the child who pays the price. And others have also stated what was said on the show - that these sorts of things are not decisions for a child to make - that the parent is the one to make these decisions, that the parent is the one to guide a child.

I'm reminded of a story someone told me about a friend of theirs. This friend's child (under the age of 5) made breakfast one day. What was breakfast? Potato chips. The friend decided they would all have this breakfast because she didn't want to disappoint her child for making the effort. I think the friend missed an opportunity to educate her child by explaining that while she was happy he made this effort, this was not what people eat for breakfast and then proceed to give him a choice out of a couple of different items to make for breakfast instead. The point being, I think it's great to be able to offer a child choices (but maybe not beyond two for very young kids), but don't put the pressure of decision making onto the child. It isn't fair and I think it's robs that child of being carefree, as all children should be allowed to be.

I don't think the parents understand that by making society "guess" at who their child is, they are unfairly placing the problem on their child, and not on society. I also think, based on one of their son's responses to a question, that they are not offering the types of choices they think they are offering to a child. The parents have said it's been their son's choice to have long hair. But children process things differently than adults. When their son asked his mother "to let the leaders of a nature center know that he's a boy", to me that says that instead of asking "do you want long hair", the question could have been "do you want to look like a boy or a girl". And then go on to ask them what they think a boy looks like, as I imagine this child would select that choice. I realize this plays into gender stereotypes, but how else can you communicate this idea to a child in terms he would understand?

I understand where the parents want to go with this...they feel they don't want to burden their child with gender stereotypes. But in trying to do so, I think they have unwittingly placed other burdens on this child.

Let's hope he or she is as fiesty as (s)he looks and doesn't hold back when (s)he gets to the talking stage, by saying loud and clear I'm not a boy (or girl), I'm a girl (or boy)!

It's funny because growing up I never experienced any gender bias by society. Either that, or I was oblivious to it. I felt that my brother and I were equals. I never experienced any of the gender stereotypes until my teenage years. But that's another topic altogether. ;)

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/26/2011 5:05:29 AM   
Muttling


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Joined: 9/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

Let's hope he or she is as fiesty as (s)he looks and doesn't hold back when (s)he gets to the talking stage, by saying loud and clear I'm not a boy (or girl), I'm a girl (or boy)!




This sentence should come with a warning label:

"Do Not Attempt to Read Pre-Coffee"

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/26/2011 7:08:56 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110524/ts_yblog_thelookout/parents-keep-childs-gender-under-wraps


These guys are just fucked...

I hope for the kid's sake he doesn't end up Jaime Gumm

Also-
1) I hope by the time this kid runs for PM of Canada, there's no Birther Movement up there.

2)"But as Stocker puts it: "If you really want to get to know someone, you don't ask what's between their legs"

Stocker's never been out with someone from here. I've heard a couple of funny stories at a munch or two.



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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/26/2011 7:11:10 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I hope for the kid's sake he doesn't end up Jaime Gumm


Make that he/she

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/26/2011 7:13:14 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I'm just thinking of the future. How long ya figure this can go on.


Till the kid grows up enough to either wack em both with a french knife on halloween, or just tells em to get a fucking life


< Message edited by SternSkipper -- 5/26/2011 7:14:13 AM >

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/26/2011 7:16:08 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


Posts: 1226
Joined: 3/3/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
This sounds a lot like the 1970's craze believing that gender is a learned trait and the female/ male brains are born the same.    This has long been proven to be untrue and brain development differs as soon as the fetus starts producing hormones.   

PLEASE NOTE - This is not to say one is better than the other at all, but the differences are apparent at a very early age.  Just look to see where this child is developmentally in a few more months and you'll know the gender.   Girls almost always grow developmentally faster than boys, if the child is girl...it is quite likely that she'll be starting to walk, talk, and get object permanency far more quickly than her male counter parts.

This is true and I think the brain continues to develop in this way for the first few years of life. I think this will be harmful to development. They don't have to shove masculine toys into a child's hands and push them into very gendered activities but to keep the biological gender ambiguous will surely do harm. Real bad to use their child as a social experiment.

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/26/2011 7:49:49 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		I lived this scenario, but in reverse.  At age 5, I was choosing Barbie dolls and Easy Bake Ovens over GI Joe and Tonka trucks and was punished for it.

I am a firm believer in the theory of differences in the male and female brain and a total believer that sometimes the brain and the body develop into different genders.

While socialization certainly plays a role in what we choose and how we behave, there are fundamental differences that I have lived and experienced, but I cannot really back up with much scientific data.

If these parents were seeing clear gender choices from their child and suspecting a brain/body imbalance, then throwing themselves fully in support of that child's choices is something I would be all for.  Exploring those feelings with the child, and giving them the support that they would need at whatever age to make choices that are both reasonable and healthy for them in that condition. 

But if these kids are feeling no dysphoria between brain and body...I think their motivations are good, but their choices will be hard on the kids.

Society does not embrace difference, and life is hard enough on kids without imposing a social agenda (no matter how noble it might be/appear) on them when that agenda does not necessarily apply to them or their situation.

Socialization can be constricting, discriminatory, and cruel, but for humans it is necessary for us to develop into beings that can live in a society, self-govern, and (hopefully) not steal our neighbor's pig.

We don't yet live in a society where such a plan for a child would work without causing the child stress.  Critical thinking and complex decision making involving potential social consequences...not something we generally think is part of a 5-year old.  And they will start encountering those social consequences as soon as you put them into contact with other children who are not being raised in that way and are more on a conforming path.  It's not like we have "gender choice" day at our schools yet.

If that child is not feeling that brain/body disconnection, then creating such an emphasis on gender could be conflicting for the kid.

I lived through it by force the other way and managed to make it out alive and reasonably functional in society, but it has taken 40+ years of my life to unravel that knot that was created by the denial of my true nature.

Today, it would be possible for a child to express a brain/body disconnection starting at age 5 and carry it through to SRS at age 18.  In my opinion, a parent, aware and cautiously supportive of such a child, would absolutely be doing the right thing for their kid.

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 5/26/2011 7:51:50 AM >

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/26/2011 8:11:35 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		While browsing the dating ads-  I seen a pic of a young guy with mascara on.  

Yuck.

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RE: Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret - 5/26/2011 8:12:58 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If the child has no gender dysphoria, then it will naturally enough pick one set of toys or the other. Certainly having older siblings will give it a sense of what boys or girls play with. And I'm betting that the parents also have certain roles and jobs in the house which teach a child what boys or girls do. I doubt the mother walks around with a tool belt repairing all the little things. Even if they have to hire a professional, kids learn quickly that plumbers and big tools are male things while interior designers are usually female or men with greater feminine characteristics than the average male. Kids extrapolate quickly.

About drivers licenses, I imagine LL lives in a different state from littlewonder and that's why their experiences are different.

My oldest is female, my younger male. And I offered barbies and model horses for him to play with as well as the blocks and legos she had been given.

He wanted cars. Blocks were used to provide race tracks. He never saw Nascar on tv, we never went to the local stock car tracks. But he was car fixated from the moment he could express it. If allowed to pick a cheap toy in the grocery store, it was a car.

For her, it was a horse. By age four she was fully horse mad. Blocks for her were corrals for the horses to play in. Barbies sat on the horses.

Honestly, these parents are unnecessarily smug about what they're doing. Like nobody before has tried not to force a kid into a mold. Unless they have resentment from their own parents doing exactly that which would explain why the grandparents don't know, aren't being allowed to babysit, etc.

We tried to expose our kids to all of life, they saw male and female nurses and doctors at the pediatric practice. Male and female teachers, etc. But a child who is fully grounded in one gender will gravitate to things typical of that gender.


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