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Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 4:40:25 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

TUCSON, Ariz. – The man accused of wounding Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in a deadly rampage lowered his head to within inches of the courtroom table Wednesday. When he lifted it, he began yelling, angry and loud.

Federal marshals had to drag Jared Lee Loughner out of the packed federal courtroom. Minutes later, he was in a nearby room and, over a closed-circuit TV, could watch as U.S. District Judge Larry Burns declared him incompetent to stand trial.

Mental health experts concluded that the 22-year-old college dropout suffers from schizophrenia.


Well, now what? This rates right up there with Hinckley who shot President Reagen.

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 4:43:44 PM   
flcouple2009


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Status: offline 		You didn't see this one coming?


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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 4:46:53 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Really rather sad, how our healthcare system doesn't deal with mental illness until something tragic happens, and even then it is on a case by case basis. How many other people suffer undiagnosed with this problem?

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 4:48:17 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		This actually brings up a big question in gun control. Gun Owners and anti-gun activists agree that mentally unstable people do not need access to guns, BUT there is no constitutional way to prevent it from happening. If you open medical records up on a back ground check, it opens the way for people to be denied jobs for medical or mental reasons.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 4:49:50 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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I have always prefered "Guilty by reason of insanity or mental defect." Then the person gets treatment, and possible punishment if the insanity is treated enough to understand what they had done.

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 4:57:45 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I have always prefered "Guilty by reason of insanity or mental defect." Then the person gets treatment, and possible punishment if the insanity is treated enough to understand what they had done.


So you should be "punished" for being mentally ill to the point of not being able to discern delusion from reality? Seriously?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 5:00:27 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

You didn't see this one coming?



I agree.  The guy is a nut.  Sorta like he is on LSD type of drugs.

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 5:19:06 PM   
Real0ne


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Status: offline 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktbMbQJ-YR0

the smoking gun

that judge was going to rule against the banks in a pivotal forclosure case.

oh the coincidence

oh the irony

newspaper reporters have not found any evidence of foul play so at least we have proof that we can all rest easy in america.


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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 5:29:47 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I have always prefered "Guilty by reason of insanity or mental defect." Then the person gets treatment, and possible punishment if the insanity is treated enough to understand what they had done.


So you should be "punished" for being mentally ill to the point of not being able to discern delusion from reality? Seriously?


No julia, I think you are misunderstanding. Guilty by reason of insanity means just that. He did the crime, but he wasnt in control of his actions. It also makes it easier to keep him in custody should the time come that a Dr is convinced he is no longer a problem.

Imagine, releasing him to have this happen a second time.

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 5:54:53 PM   
flcouple2009


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Status: offline 		Tazzy ,

I have no problem with your guilty by reason of insanity.  Put them away , treat them, keep them from being a harm to themselves or anyone else.

I take issue with this 

"possible punishment if the insanity is treated enough to understand what they had done."

So what now we're going to treat someone until they are well enough to understand they did something wrong THEN punish them with prison?


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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:00:10 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I take issue with this 

"possible punishment if the insanity is treated enough to understand what they had done."

So what now we're going to treat someone until they are well enough to understand they did something wrong THEN punish them with prison?



That was what I took exception to. If the person is mentally ill, that means they are sick. Of course if their mental illness cannot be controlled, they need to be away from society.

_____________________________

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:01:49 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		By definition wouldn't someone who walks into a crowd and starts shooting be "insane?"
Could they be "competent" enough to stand trial but still be insane?

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:03:16 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Both he and Gifford worshipped at the same synagogue. 

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:08:48 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

By definition wouldn't someone who walks into a crowd and starts shooting be "insane?"
Could they be "competent" enough to stand trial but still be insane?



A legal defense of insanity means that the person was so delusional that they could not tell the difference between right and wrong. For example, if I have a delusion that someone is a hideous monster and I kill them thinking they were going to eat me, that is an example of someone who was so mentally ill they could not distinguish right from wrong.

On the other hand, if I am just pissed off at everyone I go to school with and I shoot them all, that is not the description of someone who is so delusional they do not know the difference between right and wrong.

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:12:08 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

Tazzy ,

I have no problem with your guilty by reason of insanity.  Put them away , treat them, keep them from being a harm to themselves or anyone else.

I take issue with this 

"possible punishment if the insanity is treated enough to understand what they had done."

So what now we're going to treat someone until they are well enough to understand they did something wrong THEN punish them with prison?



Ahh.. I missed that part. According to our laws, you cant try someone who does not understand the charges. This type of person would be confined until such a time as they do understand. The facts wont change. The crime scene doesnt change.

As cruel as it may sound, trying them when/if they are declared sane once again is the only way to bring about justice for everyone.

As far as prison, they have hospitals for the criminally insane that also serve as prisons.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 5/25/2011 6:15:02 PM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:12:12 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
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Status: offline 		In most cases yes. The sentencing should be left in the hands of the judicial system to determine the best course of action for someone that has shown themselves to be a menace. First would come treatment, and then a review at a set period of time. once the person was determined to be competent, the judge would review all the factors and determine if further punishment was necessary.

In this the person gets treatment, if they are truly of the sort that cannot be held accountable, then a judge determines that, and no further punishment may be given. If it is determined that it was something not severe that impeded them, then further punsihment or imprisonment may be needed. Possibly parole or probation.

Each case should be handled by the merits of the case, and determined by the judge.

The guilty portion is an admitting that the crime actually took place, and done by the person, the other portion is to get them treatment, and if needed further isolation from society, or whatever the judge determines.

There would always be exceptions, but those would be for the judicial system to determine, and not a get out of jail free card.


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I have always prefered "Guilty by reason of insanity or mental defect." Then the person gets treatment, and possible punishment if the insanity is treated enough to understand what they had done.


So you should be "punished" for being mentally ill to the point of not being able to discern delusion from reality? Seriously?


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:13:28 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Yep that would be it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No julia, I think you are misunderstanding. Guilty by reason of insanity means just that. He did the crime, but he wasnt in control of his actions. It also makes it easier to keep him in custody should the time come that a Dr is convinced he is no longer a problem.

Imagine, releasing him to have this happen a second time.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:15:03 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Both he and Gifford worshipped at the same synagogue. 


There is ample evidence that she worshipped at a synagogue, and none that he did.  Just because he has Judaism in his lineage....

back on topic... if there had been any other result, I would have bee shocked.  He's completely nuts and that's his best defense.


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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:22:07 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Ahh.. I missed that part. According to our laws, you cant try someone who does not understand the charges. This type of person would be confined until such a time as they do understand. The facts wont change. The crime scene doesnt change.

As cruel as it may sound, trying them when/if they are declared sane once again is the only way to bring about justice for everyone.

As far as prison, they have hospitals for the criminally insane that also serve as prisons.


You would have to make a plea of not guilty by the reason of insanity, and if the prosecutor agrees, and the judge agrees, there maybe no trial at all. There maybe a trial and a jury will decide if the person is not guilty by the reason of insanity.... but if they are found to be so crazy they could not understand what they were doing, the JUST choice is to find them not guilty. We should not criminalize true mental illness like schizophrenia

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent - 5/25/2011 6:23:57 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Both he and Gifford worshipped at the same synagogue. 


There is ample evidence that she worshipped at a synagogue, and none that he did.  Just because he has Judaism in his lineage....

back on topic... if there had been any other result, I would have bee shocked.  He's completely nuts and that's his best defense.



The point is that they knew eachother.

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