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You do realize that there are many studies that show these people were born like this. It is neurological, and organic, and the environment they are raised in often determines whether it manifests in violent ways, or non-first person violence.

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Schiziphrenia, is as misunderstood as most disorders are that do not have visible outward signs. There are different types of it, as well as different degrees people have. Some can live withon society with little to no threat of those around them, as long as the continue to take their meds and are supervised by professionals.

I do not think you and I are too far off on how to approach it, I am just discussing specifically in the cases where they have commited violent acts, and how society should take care of them, including the judicial system.

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Then you're not talking about justice, you're only talking about revenge. Let's just call it what it is, and stop pretending it has anything to do with justice. 

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ust because someone is mentally unstable does not mean they did not commit a crime. What it means is that they committed the crime while mentally unstable.

Perhaps people are having trouble figuring out the difference.

Mental instability is not the same thing as a psychotic break with reality.... if you had ever witnessed a loved one with a psychotic break with reality, you would know it is not your garden variety emotional meltdown

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Watching a loved one with such a break is different than watching a patient having one. Emotions cause all sorts of reactions. Being guilty has nothing to do with emotions.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I dont believe that is the case here, do you, julia?

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Loughner believed in numerous conspiracy theories and espoused views such as: the United States Government was responsible for the September 11 attacks;[31] a New World Order would bring about a one world currency; there would be a 2012 apocalypse; NASA had faked spaceflights; and the government was using mind control to brainwash people by controlling grammar. He was a member of the message board Above Top Secret though members of the site did not respond warmly to his posts.[28][32][33][34] Reports appearing after the shooting noted similarities between the statements made by Loughner concerning grammar and mind control and the views of conspiracy theorist David Wynn Miller.[35] Miller stated, "He's just repeating things I've had up on my site the past 11 years."[36][37] According to Zach Osler, the online conspiracy theory film Zeitgeist: The Movie affected Loughner's view of the world. Loughner believed that most people in the country are brainwashed and are unaware that nothing is real. Loughner became obsessed with controlling what he perceived to be lucid dreams.[10][38][39][40]

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Then you're not talking about justice, you're only talking about revenge. Let's just call it what it is, and stop pretending it has anything to do with justice. 

Why would you call justice revenge? Revenge is an emotional thing. The facts are that this guy committed acts which are intolerable to civilized people, and he must be removed.

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I'm not picky about how we accomplish it, or what words we write on what forms, or what the letterhead of the final residence might say. He needs to be permanently removed from society. Now I know what I think is the best way to do that, but why turn an interesting discussion of mental illness into another dp thread?

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Yes, lots of sick fuckers in this world that should be taken out of civilized society....

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Oh, yeah, you'd know it for sure. Goes without saying. I'm not sure how many others do, though. The two concepts seem to be bandied about interchangeably by a couple of other posters, and it makes for a confusing discussion. 

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Yes, lots of sick fuckers in this world that should be taken out of civilized society....

Yes. I'm sure you do feel that way, Julia. And do you feel you're qualified to pick?

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The above portions that bolded....Schizophrenics often have delusions that some force outside of them controls their behavior.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You seem to believe you are well qualified for that....

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It's not justice. If the defendant was mentally ill, they did not what they were doing. You want to "punish" them for something for which they are not responsible. just because you can't stand the idea that somebody isn't going to pay. That's purely emotional, nothing but simple vengeance, and has nothing to do with justice.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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The above portions that bolded....Schizophrenics often have delusions that some force outside of them controls their behavior.

Take a look around these boards, julia. If that is your belief, then you are arguing with people who are mentally ill, which in itself is a cruelty. You can believe you are being controlled/persecuted and still not be schizophrenic.

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Delusions
A delusion is a firmly-held idea that a person has despite clear and obvious evidence that it isn’t true. Delusions are extremely common in schizophrenia, occurring in more than 90% of those who have the disorder. Often, these delusions involve illogical or bizarre ideas or fantasies. Common schizophrenic delusions include:

Delusions of persecution – Belief that others, often a vague “they,” are out to get him or her. These persecutory delusions often involve bizarre ideas and plots (e.g. “Martians are trying to poison me with radioactive particles delivered through my tap water”).

Delusions of reference – A neutral environmental event is believed to have a special and personal meaning. For example, a person with schizophrenia might believe a billboard or a person on TV is sending a message meant specifically for them.

Delusions of grandeur – Belief that one is a famous or important figure, such as Jesus Christ or Napolean. Alternately, delusions of grandeur may involve the belief that one has unusual powers that no one else has (e.g. the ability to fly).

Delusions of control – Belief that one’s thoughts or actions are being controlled by outside, alien forces. Common delusions of control include thought broadcasting (“My private thoughts are being transmitted to others”), thought insertion (“Someone is planting thoughts in my head”), and thought withdrawal (“The CIA is robbing me of my thoughts”).