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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 3:57:16 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think it will work, though I do agree we have a problem. Providers do not want to work in primary care because there is so little money in it. Even if they have $0 in loans, the more lucrative and prestigious specialities will always be the primary draw for med students(and for many other health care providers). It isn't about the loans, it is about how much they can make over the course of their career, the hours, and the prestige of the specialties. Most would probably rather just have the loans to pay off vs being forced into primary care if they went for free.

I know if I had been given the choice between becoming a family practice NP for free or going into the family psych-mental health speciality with loans, I'd still have chosen psych(and the loans I owe!). I'm not an outlier in that either. You certainly will get a few who would choose the "free" plan. They would likely have chosen primary care to begin with though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This seems to be a topic lately... free education in the US beyond high school. This morning, the NYTimes ran a opinion piece about free medical training...

Why Medical School Should Be Free

The point is to provide free medical school training for primary care levels... anything specialized would be at full price.

We currently have programs for Drs to offset their loans with programs, but few take the help.

What say you... should education be free?


< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 5/29/2011 3:58:47 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 4:06:54 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

So to save money should we drop free education down to grade 7?



Not IMO. But we should fire any teacher that promotes a student who isnt proficient in the 3Rs at their grade level.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 4:09:08 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

They would likely have chosen primary care to begin with though.




Bingo. This administration in particular loves to "incent" people to do what they were going to do anyway, and for it to cost 3x as much as the value the person receives.

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 4:10:04 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

It is not being silly


Yes it is.

quote:


...it is showing that you modified someone's quote, for whatever reason.



I gave you the reason.

quote:


If you do not buy into the arguement, then address it, don't hack out part of someone's comment just because you feel the explanation is not valid.



I've "addressed" it... I don't buy into the simple "redistribution" argument for the following reasons:  (i) Redistribution of current crushing debt is not a solution, as it's little more then spending the same UNSUSTAINABLE amounts, just differently, and (ii) it's not as simple as many seem to believe it is to cut/fund this program vs. that program.

quote:


This is why I said it was a topic by itself, as the amount of discussion would exceed the current OP.



It's not "off topic", as spending for education, or defense, or the environment, or for everyone to have little pink elephants on their front lawn is DIRECTLY LINKED to the debt and current spending levels.

quote:


So to save money should we drop free education down to grade 7?



I would not support that... nor would I support spending MORE -- i.e., free college education.  It's absolutely not "free"... someone (the taxpayer) has to pay for it.





< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 5/29/2011 4:17:21 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 4:46:41 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

try reading the articles... will become an eye opener


Okay, I read your OP article. My opinion remains the same, however.

Why limit free education to the medical field? Your subject title makes more sense.

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 4:51:55 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

try reading the articles... will become an eye opener


Okay, I read your OP article. My opinion remains the same, however.

Why limit free education to the medical field? Your subject title makes more sense.
Perhaps because there is a crushing need for general practitioners...at least that's what I took away from the Time's article when I read it this morning.


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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 5:01:41 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I don't think it will work, though I do agree we have a problem. Providers do not want to work in primary care because there is so little money in it. Even if they have $0 in loans, the more lucrative and prestigious specialities will always be the primary draw for med students(and for many other health care providers). It isn't about the loans, it is about how much they can make over the course of their career, the hours, and the prestige of the specialties. Most would probably rather just have the loans to pay off vs being forced into primary care if they went for free.

I know if I had been given the choice between becoming a family practice NP for free or going into the family psych-mental health speciality with loans, I'd still have chosen psych(and the loans I owe!). I'm not an outlier in that either. You certainly will get a few who would choose the "free" plan. They would likely have chosen primary care to begin with though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This seems to be a topic lately... free education in the US beyond high school. This morning, the NYTimes ran a opinion piece about free medical training...

Why Medical School Should Be Free

The point is to provide free medical school training for primary care levels... anything specialized would be at full price.

We currently have programs for Drs to offset their loans with programs, but few take the help.

What say you... should education be free?



Hi Chewsie, I was hoping you would pop in. Not sure if anyone has truly caught on to how they propose this program would be financed.... but I think it does have merit.

We do have a problem in this country, and as the Boomers age, that problem will be felt more acutely. While the piece was just an opinion piece, I would be curious as to how it would actually work. If those who want specialties are willing to pay for those specialties, and therefore pay for those who want to be PCP's....

Its no cure all. As you well know, there are many problems with our health care that doesnt just stop at the number of physicians we have in this country. I would also be curious to see a study to see how many would become PCPs if they had this option.

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 5:03:04 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

try reading the articles... will become an eye opener


Okay, I read your OP article. My opinion remains the same, however.

Why limit free education to the medical field? Your subject title makes more sense.
Perhaps because there is a crushing need for general practitioners...at least that's what I took away from the Time's article when I read it this morning.



Exactly mike... 40000 to 45000 short by 2020... thats only 8 years away and they must begin training now.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 5:08:34 PM   
subfever


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Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

Perhaps because there is a crushing need for general practitioners...at least that's what I took away from the Time's article when I read it this morning.


So then, you are in favor of even more social engineering to maintain the status-quo?

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 5:21:57 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

Perhaps because there is a crushing need for general practitioners...at least that's what I took away from the Time's article when I read it this morning.


So then, you are in favor of even more social engineering to maintain the status-quo?


By maintaining the status quo... im sure you mean the fact that medicare is funding the intern and residents spots.... any idea how the voucher system would have affected the training of our physicians... that we cant even discuss the possibilities because no one is willing to think outside the box...

If thats the status quo.. then nope, thats not what this is about.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 5:39:32 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

Perhaps because there is a crushing need for general practitioners...at least that's what I took away from the Time's article when I read it this morning.


So then, you are in favor of even more social engineering to maintain the status-quo?
Well,of course not.....I mean now that you have put such an evil sounding label on the whole thing I realize what a crushing mistake it would be to try to create such an artificial incentive to address such a need.No need to go out of our way  simply due to a societal need .
By that way.....when you referrence the "status -quo" like that...what is your meaning....you wouldn't be suggesting that we ignore such issues in an attempt to let everything go to hell in a hand basket....all so that we can than get around to a much more drastic form of "social- engineering"...would you?


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 6:01:58 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

Perhaps because there is a crushing need for general practitioners...at least that's what I took away from the Time's article when I read it this morning.


So then, you are in favor of even more social engineering to maintain the status-quo?


By maintaining the status quo... im sure you mean the fact that medicare is funding the intern and residents spots.... any idea how the voucher system would have affected the training of our physicians... that we cant even discuss the possibilities because no one is willing to think outside the box...

If thats the status quo.. then nope, thats not what this is about.


Social engineering can be found within in the IRS code easily enough. The status-quo requires sustained growth. So taxpayers are encouraged, by way of tax incentives, to marry and have children. This helps support the sustained-growth model.

Providing free education in one area while restricting it to all others is just another form of social engineering, that is, the encouragement of people to fill specific needs of the system.

To me, there's something obviously wrong the system itself, if an inadequate number of students can't afford the education needed to fill a specific void... as in this primary physician example.

We can either remain inside-the-box and continue treating symptoms, or we can move outside-the-box and begin addressing the underlying causes.

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 7:31:17 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		My sister's a nurse who recently decided to go back to school to get her Masters. She is preparing for what she believes will be the future of medicine. She thinks the lack of primary care physicians will be addressed by having nurses take over the responsibilities that these doctors have now. Everyone else will be specialists. Maybe that's another way to solve the problem.

pam

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 7:33:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Many of us already see nurse practitioners.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 8:37:44 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

My sister's a nurse who recently decided to go back to school to get her Masters. She is preparing for what she believes will be the future of medicine. She thinks the lack of primary care physicians will be addressed by having nurses take over the responsibilities that these doctors have now. Everyone else will be specialists. Maybe that's another way to solve the problem.

pam


Pam, your sister is so right. NP's will be the fill in. I prefer one for my primary care. There isnt the ego trip with them that you get with a Physician.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 8:37:44 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Hi Chewsie, I was hoping you would pop in. Not sure if anyone has truly caught on to how they propose this program would be financed.... but I think it does have merit.

We do have a problem in this country, and as the Boomers age, that problem will be felt more acutely. While the piece was just an opinion piece, I would be curious as to how it would actually work. If those who want specialties are willing to pay for those specialties, and therefore pay for those who want to be PCP's....

Its no cure all. As you well know, there are many problems with our health care that doesnt just stop at the number of physicians we have in this country. I would also be curious to see a study to see how many would become PCPs if they had this option.


Maybe the women could be strippers and the like? They can seamlessly say "I have my Phd and I am a sex worker!" Maybe the men could grow/sell pot, "It is good for glaucoma, HIV, cancer!" Gives new meaning to Medicinal Marijuana.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 8:38:53 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Hi Chewsie, I was hoping you would pop in. Not sure if anyone has truly caught on to how they propose this program would be financed.... but I think it does have merit.

We do have a problem in this country, and as the Boomers age, that problem will be felt more acutely. While the piece was just an opinion piece, I would be curious as to how it would actually work. If those who want specialties are willing to pay for those specialties, and therefore pay for those who want to be PCP's....

Its no cure all. As you well know, there are many problems with our health care that doesnt just stop at the number of physicians we have in this country. I would also be curious to see a study to see how many would become PCPs if they had this option.


Maybe the women could be strippers and the like? They can seamlessly say "I have my Phd and I am a sex worker!" Maybe the men could grow/sell pot, "It is good for glaucoma, HIV, cancer!" Gives new meaning to Medicinal Marijuana.


Another who didnt read the article.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Free College. - 5/30/2011 5:54:55 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So, to bring this back to the OP, and the article there....

This is a suggestion for a solution to the shortage of Primary Care Physicians this country is facing, and a situation that will be escalating in the upcoming years.

Anyone else have suggestions?


tazzy, please understand that this is an attack on the article itself, and not you.

This is why the engineering thought process is valuable, because it precludes bullshit articles like the one posted.  Done by a pair of doctors - note that medicine does not teach critical thinking.

If I buy that there will be a shortage of general practitioners, then how would I meet that?  The article never addresses that, simply stating that there will be a problem and offering up a single solution.  Note that the solution is predicated on two things:

1. That there are unfilled slots in med school right now.
2. That these slots are unfilled due to financial issues for the students.

The article does not mention the first premise, and implies that the second is true with no proof.  If anyone remembers the Bakke case, it was a bitter fight over someone landing a coveted slot at a med school, implying that there is a shortage of med school positions, directly contradicting the first premise.

If we have no unfilled slots in med school, then why are we proposing a solution for making it easier to fill the open slots that do not exist?

Moving on, if we accept that there will be a shortage, what are different ways to meet this need?  Some obvious ones that come to mind, and none of which are addressed by the article, include accrediting more schools, allowing foreign doctors to transfer their license to the US (which my grandfather did from Germany in the 1930s but for some reason is not done today as far as I can see), setting up ways to use Mexican doctors' services, etc.

This is the engineering mindset:  Identify problem, propose solutions, analyze solutions, pick the best one.  Unfortunately, most of the normal process today is Propose solution, make up bullshit numbers to justify it, lobby for it.

In the proposed case, it would subsidize one of the wealthiest groups in the US, which is the last thing we need to do.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Free College. - 5/30/2011 8:00:40 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

If I buy that there will be a shortage of general practitioners, then how would I meet that?  The article never addresses that, simply stating that there will be a problem and offering up a single solution.  Note that the solution is predicated on two things:

1. That there are unfilled slots in med school right now.
2. That these slots are unfilled due to financial issues for the students.


The article states neither, DS. It states there is a shortage of Primacy Care Physicians because most who are in medical school prefer the bigger bucks to be found in specializing.

quote:

The article does not mention the first premise,


Because its not the premise they are working under.


quote:

and implies that the second is true with no proof.


If the second is your second, then again its not what the article is about.

quote:

If anyone remembers the Bakke case, it was a bitter fight over someone landing a coveted slot at a med school, implying that there is a shortage of med school positions, directly contradicting the first premise.


There is a limited number of med school positions, that is true.

quote:

If we have no unfilled slots in med school, then why are we proposing a solution for making it easier to fill the open slots that do not exist?


Ah, now I get where you are coming from. The slots that are limited in Med School is because those slots are limited in residency. Medicare pays for residency slots in this country and there are only so many to go around. To prevent a huge bottle neck, school openings are limited.

quote:

Moving on, if we accept that there will be a shortage, what are different ways to meet this need? Some obvious ones that come to mind, and none of which are addressed by the article, include accrediting more schools, allowing foreign doctors to transfer their license to the US (which my grandfather did from Germany in the 1930s but for some reason is not done today as far as I can see), setting up ways to use Mexican doctors' services, etc.

This is the engineering mindset: Identify problem, propose solutions, analyze solutions, pick the best one. Unfortunately, most of the normal process today is Propose solution, make up bullshit numbers to justify it, lobby for it.

In the proposed case, it would subsidize one of the wealthiest groups in the US, which is the last thing we need to do.


What the article offered was a possible solution to the shortage of Primary Doctors we have in this country... not the shortage of physicians as a whole.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Free College. - 5/30/2011 4:13:02 PM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This seems to be a topic lately... free education in the US beyond high school. This morning, the NYTimes ran a opinion piece about free medical training...

Why Medical School Should Be Free

The point is to provide free medical school training for primary care levels... anything specialized would be at full price.

We currently have programs for Drs to offset their loans with programs, but few take the help.

What say you... should education be free?


Sure it should. But then, you are leveling the playing field and the rich don't like a level playing field. Even ending the practice of getting recommended into Med School cause your mommy or daddy is a doctor would make the rich become nervous. Not to mention legacies at the Ivy League schools.........Rich folk will fight to keep it from happening. Sort of like health care for all.....they don't like that either...

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Profile   Post #: 140
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