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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


Death panels, a term exploited by Sarah Palin is typically what liberals refer to as her lies about Obamacare (or at least one of them) and I assume you as well.

(an assumption, not fact)

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(an assumption, not fact)

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin





The dirty little secret about Obamacare he hoped would have escaped the headlines was his plan to reform medicare as part of overall deficit reduction, Obama proposed a panel - The Independent Payment Advisory Board  - to recommend savings for the financially doomed program. Translation:  rationing.

(not a dirty secret whatsoever.
Here is the fact:

The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which has the explicit task of reducing the rate of growth in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality. Under previous law, changes to Medicare reimbursement rates were recommended by MedPAC but required an act of congress to take effect, but the new system devolves responsibility to IPAB with congress being given the power to overrule the agency's decisions.)

(streamlining, efficiency in government)



(lie revealed!!!!! not unchecked and not quite binding either.)
And does not mean that the decisions for your care are entirely up to them on case by case basis.  As they are in an insurance company deathpanel, who as I have stated have a personal monetary interest in killing you instead of paying (it is actually their job) 

So it will take an act of congress now to overturn the death panel decision. How efficient is that ? No lie there. Now congress is the death panel.

LMAO at that one.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin




They will do this by cutting reimbursements to doctors and hospitals and restricting patients from costly end-of-life care by enforcing caps on how much a patient can spend to stay alive.
(exactly how insurance works today!!!!!!! fearmongering Joe the Plumber style, distinctions without differences   'THEY'  the nameless faceless 'THEY' )


Most at risk will be the disabled, who require special and often expensive care. Cancer patients will be at risk, as well, since chemotherapy and other oncological treatments are some of the priciest.

(same as insurance today with all mitigations noted prior)

Yes, insurance companies deny claims all the time. It's happened to me and when it did I got on the phone and pointed out where or why it should have been covered and the claim was paid. In fact this has happened to me more than once. Not only that but I have learned it's a common practice for those assholes to deny claims because more often than not people don't call them on it and it just adds more to their bottom line.

Now would I suggest redoing our entire health care industry according to government dictates  to fix this ?  No because I'd be out of my freakin mind.

Why can't we just simply address the problem ? 

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


In the past, Obama had hinted that we'll need a way to address these patients. "The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80% of the total health care bill out here." He said this shortly after taking office. "There is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place."

Doesn't look like a hint (that is a sinister innuendo, I belive the fucking guy actually said it!!!!!)

Ok ya got me, he actually said it.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin



But there was no real conversation. Democrats inserted the rationing panel into the Affordable Care Act (i.e., Obamacare), and when the opposition tried to draw attention to the risks involved by invoking rationing, they were branded by the left and the mainstream media as crazies (that is Sarah Palin is a liar smear tactic character assassination Bullshit which addresses what  MY FREAKIN POINT HAS BEEN ALL ALONG).
 
I agree with your assessment that she is a liar...smearer....character assassinator....you needn't yell!!!!

Did you misread what I stated or was that a simple minded 3rd grade schoolyard tactic ?

That was not my assessment, I was pointing out, again, the typical liberal smear tactical character assassination bullshit as per my original point.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin




Is it a fair to compare death panels to rationing to The Independent Payment Advisory Board ? I believe it is.
 
It is fair to compare the insurance industry way of doing business (championed by the conservatives), the IPAB board, and death panels. 
 
 It's open for debate, not character assassination.

And you immediately smear and assassinate.

So, we see some outright lies, some distinctions drawn without difference, insinuating that only the evilist of intentions are the governments, and insinuating by implication that the Insurance death panels are altruistic.
 
A fact would be, Jerry Garcia is dead.  You haven't got those. 
You have stated your case, and I don't buy your assumptions, and don't buy your deal.  It is smear, plain and simple.
 


Joe the Plumber turned out to be a hypothetical, but unreal thing.  Same as this is, and thats your translation you wanted.

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Sarah Palin has a better chance of winning than Obama had. The American public is indeed fickle as hell but at least Sarah Palin is eligible according to the Constitution.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

She's unelectable.

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We have something similar to single payer that is, if health care is unaffordable there is medicaid and medicare.

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Wouldn't it be better to the figure out how to eliminate the more than 100 billion a year in fraud these programs generate ?

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What about affordable drugs ? Why does it cost Americans so much for drugs when Canadians are cutting deals and buying in bulk and Americans get them cheaper by ordering from or going to Canada ?

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And why in Gods green earth can't we address tort reform ? That alone could save gajillions on our medical bills.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

We have something similar to single payer that is, if health care is unaffordable there is medicaid and medicare.

Neither of which are single payer.

Neither are available to someone who is married or a single adult without children who isnt blind. pregnant or has a major disease
Wouldn't be better to try insuring those who have no insurance ?

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Wouldn't it be better to the figure out how to eliminate the more than 100 billion a year in fraud these programs generate ?

Single payer would do that. I  don't see how. I think that would just increase the the fraud. If some one can defraud government medicare as it is now, what's to keep them from defrauding government single payer ? It will still have to be fixed.

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What about affordable drugs ? Why does it cost Americans so much for drugs when Canadians are cutting deals and buying in bulk and Americans get them cheaper by ordering from or going to Canada ?

Why do you think? Pharmaceuticals are almost as big a lobby group as Insurance. No one group should weld such influence for financial gain. It's part of the problem. Fix that, rather than redo the whole freakin system. I mean, this whole Obama bill is what, 2,700 pages ?

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And why in Gods green earth can't we address tort reform ? That alone could save gajillions on our medical bills.

According to the CBO, it would save, potentially, 54 Billion dollars over the next ten years... or 5.4 Billion a year. See directly below.

Obama is right that medical malpractice doesn’t have a big impact on health care spending. As Republican Rep. Dave Camp correctly pointed out, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that limiting malpractice liability would "reduce the federal deficit by more than $50 billion." More precisely, that’s $54 billion over 10 years, according to the CBO. But CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf noted the savings would "reduce total U.S. health care spending by about 0.5 percent (about $11 billion in 2009)."

About $54 billion, even over 10 years, is a lot of money. But when put into the context of a $2 trillion-plus health care spending market, it becomes a lot smaller.

What is the biggest driver of health care spending? The nonprofit Kaiser Family Foundation says there’s disagreement on that point, but it provides a list of the major drivers, which includes prescription drugs and technology, chronic disease (which accounts for more than 75 percent of health care spending), an aging population, and administrative costs.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/02/summit-extras-medical-malpractice/

1/2% is not a gazillion dollars.  I think I wrote gajillion so you misquoted me

GEZZZZ... to quote your so elegant term. thats SCZHEEEEEEESH

 I still think it better to attack these problems and others on an individual basis. Once added up as a whole the savings would go a long way to help solve our health care shortcomings. What we have with Obama care is a monstrosity likely to bankrupt the nation.

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

What we have with Obama care is a monstrosity likely to bankrupt the nation. [/color]

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ORIGINAL: RacerJim

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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do those who are registered Republican's see either of these 2 as viable candidates?

nope, not in this lifetime.


I should add that it would be ammusing to see Sarah win, just to watch heads explode all over cm, but then we would have to put up with her for 4 years and it wouldn't be that ammusing.

Do you really think she could win boi? I know the american public is fickle as hell but unless some disaster happens, I dont see any of the present R folks winning in '12.

Sarah Palin has a better chance of winning than Obama had. The American public is indeed fickle as hell but at least Sarah Palin is eligible according to the Constitution.

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

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(an assumption, not fact)

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin





The dirty little secret about Obamacare he hoped would have escaped the headlines was his plan to reform medicare as part of overall deficit reduction, Obama proposed a panel - The Independent Payment Advisory Board  - to recommend savings for the financially doomed program. Translation:  rationing.

(not a dirty secret whatsoever.
Here is the fact:

The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which has the explicit task of reducing the rate of growth in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality. Under previous law, changes to Medicare reimbursement rates were recommended by MedPAC but required an act of congress to take effect, but the new system devolves responsibility to IPAB with congress being given the power to overrule the agency's decisions.)

(streamlining, efficiency in government)



(lie revealed!!!!! not unchecked and not quite binding either.)
And does not mean that the decisions for your care are entirely up to them on case by case basis.  As they are in an insurance company deathpanel, who as I have stated have a personal monetary interest in killing you instead of paying (it is actually their job) 

So it will take an act of congress now to overturn the death panel decision. How efficient is that ? No lie there. Now congress is the death panel.

LMAO at that one.

Today there is no act of congress to turn over an insurance adjusters  death panel decision.

LMAO at you truck.

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Wouldn't be better to try insuring those who have no insurance ?

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I don't see how. I think that would just increase the the fraud. If some one can defraud government medicare as it is now, what's to keep them from defrauding government single payer ? It will still have to be fixed.

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No one group should weld such influence for financial gain. It's part of the problem. Fix that, rather than redo the whole freakin system. I mean, this whole Obama bill is what, 2,700 pages ?

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I think I wrote gajillion so you misquoted me

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I still think it better to attack these problems and others on an individual basis. Once added up as a whole the savings would go a long way to help solve our health care shortcomings. What we have with Obama care is a monstrosity likely to bankrupt the nation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin



But there was no real conversation. Democrats inserted the rationing panel into the Affordable Care Act (i.e., Obamacare), and when the opposition tried to draw attention to the risks involved by invoking rationing, they were branded by the left and the mainstream media as crazies (that is Sarah Palin is a liar smear tactic character assassination Bullshit which addresses what  MY FREAKIN POINT HAS BEEN ALL ALONG).
 
I agree with your assessment that she is a liar...smearer....character assassinator....you needn't yell!!!!

Did you misread what I stated or was that a simple minded 3rd grade schoolyard tactic ?

That was not my assessment, I was pointing out, again, the typical liberal smear tactical character assassination bullshit as per my original point.

You don't have a great deal in the way of reading and comprehension skills, do you.  I said no such thing, it is not that I am cracked it is that you are profoundly handicapped in your skills.

Uh, you assassinate tactically smear bullshit in your typical rightist way here, though.  You said you quoted what was in the bill, you didn't and then went on to call the oversight board death panelists, well, is that the only possible way to cut costs and streamline the overall medical costs?

Now I understand why some family might say when their father has terminal lung cancer, but I just checked the web and there is a guy in tunisia  that forces whole yew trees up your ass and has a 100% success rate in curing lung cancer, .....is that a death panel decision?

You see this 15 person administration and advisory board as some catholic spanish inquisitors sifting each case?

Again, not gonna happen in that detail. Again, they will not have a personal pecuniary interest in the outcome as Insurance company death panel members who make those decisions today.  And wholesale supported by republicans to have the corporate foxex watching the chicken coop.

I would call that smear by innuendo, a distinction without a difference (your side, not mine), character assasination, lies, bullshit, intellectually dishonest, impugnation....and I could go on.

So, now, when we see what Palin said, it is just that, devoid of fact, Joe the Plumber, incitement by lies, typical rightist nazi bullshit.