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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
"But I will admit, at least you're not such a pussy that you pulled the race card ..........."

I hereby recant that statement.

T^T

lol there are many more statements you should recant but I never said La Tweak was racist, said she throws da accusation at others but keeps on complainin' when laid at her door

~FR~ I must say sorry for the length of da last post. I hate fucking essays but got angry after she started saying we could be supporters of child abuse on top of everything else!!

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

You post up 18 stories, some from highly partisan sites like WAFA, PLO news agency dat spread conspiracy for years! They spread stories dat Israel was using some sort of mutant super rats to force Pals out of Jerusalem http://www.newsrealblog.com/2011/02/20/the-top-13-zionist-animal-conspiracy-theories/2/ a few years back! Da point is simple and I said it again an' again. [8|] You posted up far too many stories in da OP. Each story cannot be properly debated normally. Focusing on just one is pointless. It legitimises a thread where da OP was loaded against any meaningful discussion. If others disagree they can of course respond to da stories.

So if I start another thread with that single report you will respond to it? That would truly be "pointless" - we both know you will invent another flimsy excuse to weasel out of confronting the truth. Nonetheless, please prove me wrong - I'm happy to do it if you agree to respond to it.

Such a perverse world you must inhabit when the career path of an over paid self indulgent hack is prioritised and important allegations of systematic child abuse and intimidation at gunpoint by the IDF are ignored. But it's not about the hack at all is it? You couldn’t care less about Ms Burchill’s fate. It's about avoiding evading diverting deflecting hijacking - anything to avoid addressing the issue of IDF's systematic child abuse that has been put to you. You cannot even bring yourself to mention it, to acknowledge the possibility. Instead feeble excuse after feeble excuse is trotted out in a pathetic effort to put a veneer of respectability on your so-eloquent silence.

One wonders what kind of fascism runs through the Zionist camp to the extent that Zionists prefer silence and the possibility of being identified as a supporter of child abuse than accept that their side might be wrong in this instance. Even our Israeli poster, ProminentTOOL freely admitted there have been cases of unjustifiable killings by the IDF. Israeli soldiers have been convicted by Israeli courts of war crimes. These things happen. They are real. Retreating into blanket denial about them brings up uncomfortable questions about your real motives and your relationship with reality.

So, why silence? Your point blank refusal to address the allegation speaks volumes. Any open-minded reader will be thinking: 'Is it guilt, hypocrisy, racism/double standards, moral cowardice, neurosis, fanaticism ...or all of the above? Isn’t silence a tacit admission the IDF is guilty as charged? No innocent party would ever let such a monstrous allegation stand unchallenged.”

Many will be wondering about the fascism of a cause that demands such blind unquestioning loyalty, which insists its followers turn a blind eye to the truth. Especially as it concerns systematic institutionalised child abuse and intimidation, which is about as despicable as it gets. What just cause needs such wilful self-delusion? What just cause could possibly need such moral compromise?

And on a far more pragmatic level, even pro-Israelis will be wondering (with very good reason): "Is this how some suicide bombers of the future are created?"

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Usually, if someone says/posts 20 things, 5 of which I can see are skewed or misrepresented, I'll ignore the other 15 rather than spend the time to discredit or verify each. That's not a comment or opinion about the OP at all, just about what people may or may not be willing to invest in the opinion of an online message board poster.

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I hate to go offf topic, but I'm getting the impression that you live in some kind of rosy world. So rosy in fact the shorter wavelengths of light never reach you. You beloved Israel has the only government on this planet that can hold a candle to the nastiness of our own. We just do more because we're bigger.

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Israeli law is steeped in the racism you supposedly abhor. Between them and the Palestinians makes the old south in this country look like making them eat a chuck steak instead of a porterhouse. It's available all over the place, read it. Know just what a Kibbutz is. Read their laws on slavery.

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If it was any other country, this shit would be called ethnic cleansing, well except for China because quite frankly they own us damnear. China's another one that seems to be able to do whatever the fuck they want. Why ? If you don't know it, we are bullies. Israel has huge economic power and influence in many parts of the world, including here. Ever hear of AIPAC ? That's another reason why. China also doesn't incur our wrath because bullies don't pick on those their own size or bigger.

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Now all the sudden everybody cares about Qaddafi, got any idea why ? Because whatever else is going on requires a distraction. I've seen the rose colored cloud from both sides now. Preach law and order all you want, but even in the USA you can still buy a human being. You can buy almost anything. Justice is not served in the "civilised" world, it all operates on money. That's what one of my best ever lawyers said, and he was right.

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Now take what really goes on and suppose. Suppose every Palestinian around there converted to Judaism and got circumsized. Read the Torah and went to the synagogue, tithed and everything. They would still be treated like Blacks in the old south. That's racism, and in Israel it is institutionalized. Just like it was here. Only difference is we didn't build a wall. We just put up signs that said "Whites only".

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The way I see it is just have your war and the winner give us a call. And while you're at it use your own fucking money. That applies everwhere. Consider it euthenasia for the weak. Yes I am that fucking hard, but it's less cruel. Suffering a race to slow torture is much worse than just killing them with one quick blow.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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Usually, if someone says/posts 20 things, 5 of which I can see are skewed or misrepresented, I'll ignore the other 15 rather than spend the time to discredit or verify each. That's not a comment or opinion about the OP at all, just about what people may or may not be willing to invest in the opinion of an online message board poster.

This point was addressed in post #21 when the sources in the OP were reduced to 4 that were either Israeli or internationally sourced..

WOTF et al still refused to comment. The reason Zionists refuse to comment has nothing to do with the sources - it's the content. They find an excuse, any excuse to refuse to deal with anything that puts Israel in a poor light.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
lol there are many more statements you should recant but I never said La Tweak was racist, said she throws da accusation at others but keeps on complainin' when laid at her door

~FR~ I must say sorry for the length of da last post. I hate fucking essays but got angry after she started saying we could be supporters of child abuse on top of everything else!!

You haven't been accused of anything yet.

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I specifically stated that "Zionists prefer silence and the possibility of being identified as a supporter of child abuse than accept that their side might be wrong in this instance". That is not an accusation. A "possibility" is not an accusation. An accusation is a direct statement of the type: "You are X"

You have been asked many times to comment on a specific allegation of child abuse contained in the OP. You have scornfully declined every invitation.

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By declining these invitations you have left yourself open to the "possibility of being identified as a supporter of systematic child abuse by the IDF". Why? The possibility exists solely because you have repeatedly refused to rule it out. That is a simple description of a state of reality, not an accusation.

Had you the moral integrity to address the allegation this would not be the case. You are 100% responsible for putting yourself in this position. I have simply pointed out this reality.

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Nor is the incident I am referring to an isolated case. Arresting, intimidating, interrogating, assaulting and jailing children in Occupied Palestine are systematic practices carried out on a routine basis by the IDF. There are reports that over 1200 children were arrested in 2010[/link]. About 1300 children have been killed by the IDF since 2000. This is systematic child abuse on an institutional scale by any standard.

Please find the moral fibre to either dissociate yourself from or condemn such practices or the suspicion that you might be a supporter of such abuses, for reasons of political expediency will linger forever. I won't be accusing you of it. But you can bet your life others will thinking it. You are the only person who can dispel this suspicion.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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Usually, if someone says/posts 20 things, 5 of which I can see are skewed or misrepresented, I'll ignore the other 15 rather than spend the time to discredit or verify each. That's not a comment or opinion about the OP at all, just about what people may or may not be willing to invest in the opinion of an online message board poster.

This point was addressed in post #21 when the sources in the OP were reduced to 4 that were either Israeli or internationally sourced..

WOTF et al still refused to comment. The reason Zionists refuse to comment has nothing to do with the sources - it's the content. They find an excuse, any excuse to refuse to deal with anything that puts Israel in a poor light.

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
"On October 9 2006 – only on October 9 2006 – the Israeli Parliament passed a comprehensive anti-trafficking law. Previously, a 2000 amendment of the Penal Code introduced new provisions prohibiting trafficking for sexual exploitation, but left the area of trafficking for labour exploitation practically non-regulated and therefore non-punishable. Indeed, until several weeks ago Israel had no law prohibiting trafficking for labour exploitation. There was only a provision criminalizing forced labour, an inheritance of the British Mandate dating back to 1936, which provided that forcing a person to work against his or her will was punishable by a maximum of one year in prison. " (emphasis mine).

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"AIPAC advises members of Congress about the issues that face today's Middle East....."

Who provides the counterpoint ? NOBODY. And they don't act in the best interests of their enemies. I don't.

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The deal here is to get the facts straight. That country is fucking nasty. I am not saying we are not, the kettle as well as the pot are both black. The OP simply brought in the other side of the story. The media is pretty much one sided in this country, and it's true that more balanced news is available in many places in the world. If you think we have anything like a free press in this country I don't know what to tell you.

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And last but not least. Can you learn how to spell the, this, that and a few other very short words ? You may want to use dis and dat to annoy me, but you make yourself look like an asshole. I haven't accused you of that............ Remember, in this forum you are talking to the world. It's your image, not mine and thus it is your concern. Just a word to the wise, hopefully.

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Suffice it to say that alot of people here just don't believe the Faux news pablum anymore. It makes Pravda look like The American Free Press. Of course AFP is biased, but some people know how to read it. And in many cases, you are presented with true facts, but skewed conclusions. Some have a hard time with that. No wonder the world is so fucked up.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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I specifically stated that "Zionists prefer silence and the possibility of being identified as a supporter of child abuse than accept that their side might be wrong in this instance". That is not an accusation. A "possibility" is not an accusation. An accusation is a direct statement of the type: "You are X"

You have been asked many times to comment on a specific allegation of child abuse contained in the OP. You have scornfully declined every invitation.

lol saying it's a "possibility" is still an accusation of sorts cause you still sling mud at an opponent to discredit them, and you raised it in da first instance. Thats cheap and vile.

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By declining these invitations you have left yourself open to the "possibility of being identified as a supporter of systematic child abuse by the IDF". Why? The possibility exists solely because you have repeatedly refused to rule it out. That is a simple description of a state of reality, not an accusation.

Had you the moral integrity to address the allegation this would not be the case. You are 100% responsible for putting yourself in this position. I have simply pointed out this reality.

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I have heard these sort accusations before. They are nothing new. Da IDF sometimes has to search children cause they have been known to carry weapons or even be suicide bombers. They were also said to be poisioning Pally school children on several occasions but dat was proven to be untrue by independent international bodies. It sounds like da old emotive blood libel. So much shit is thrown at da IDF that it is fair to view much of it with scepticism.

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Nor is the incident I am referring to an isolated case. Arresting, intimidating, interrogating, assaulting and jailing children in Occupied Palestine are systematic practices carried out on a routine basis by the IDF. There are reports that over 1200 children were arrested in 2010[/link]. About 1300 children have been killed by the IDF since 2000. This is systematic child abuse on an institutional scale by any standard.

Please find the moral fibre to either dissociate yourself from or condemn such practices or the suspicion that you might be a supporter of such abuses, for reasons of political expediency will linger forever. I won't be accusing you of it. But you can bet your life others will thinking it. You are the only person who can dispel this suspicion.

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The source of her article is ww.palestine-info.co.uk - just another partisan source like 99% of da other sources she cites on this thread. Also a good reason not to debate with you is da fact DomKen and myself already showed with good argument that it could not be 1,300 children who were killed by da IDF. you relied on da word of an extremist called Richard Falk who has repeatedly justified Palestinian suicide bombings, an' whose appointment to da UN caused huge controversy.

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WOTF

Dude you wear myopic goggles and need to wise up to da big game. Don't be so simple as to believe a few rich AIPAC jooz control policy. Da US an' da West generally is da big winner in the Mid-East, not Israel. They play at diplomacy to ensure relatively cheap oil or da West would go down da toilet. Throwing a few billion at Israel/Egypt/Jordan an' propping up friends like Saudi helps keep da region divided where regional hegemony/self-interest would fuel deadly power plays like with Iran. Its da ole' divide an' control jig. Is it right? Maybe da US could go down da crapper otherwise.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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WOTF
Dude you wear myopic goggles and need to wise up to da big game. Don't be so simple as to believe a few rich AIPAC jooz control policy. Da US an' da West generally is da big winner in the Mid-East, not Israel. They play at diplomacy to ensure relatively cheap oil or da West would go down da toilet. Throwing a few billion at Israel/Egypt/Jordan an' propping up friends like Saudi helps keep da region divided where regional hegemony/self-interest would fuel deadly power plays like with Iran. Its da ole' divide an' control jig. Is it right? Maybe da US could go down da crapper otherwise.

Now this is a very interesting claim - the goal of US/Western policy in the Middle East is to "keep da region divided" via "divide and control" or the West goes down the tubes ...... Could WOTF have stumbled onto the truth for once....?

Certainly a regression analysis of US/Western policy towards the region supports this conclusion. If one looks at the outcomes of US/Western policy in the ME, it's difficult to avoid concluding that the initial goal was to induce chaos in the region, and that this goal has been in place for many decades. And that policy has been spectacularly successful in achieving its goal.

Of course, if one accepts this analysis, implicit in it is that the entire Israel thing has been pure expediency from the beginning. It has nothing to do with any notion of justice, or moral right, of fairness. Israel is seen purely as an instrument to induce chaos into the region. The Jewish people have been cynically used as a battering ram for Western interests. All the moral/ethical/fair play for the Jewish people arguments go straight out the window. In this view, they are utterly irrelevant.

In this view it's all about realpolitik, cheap oil and keeping the 'towelheads' in their place. Is it? Is there any merit in this perspective?

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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WOTF
Dude you wear myopic goggles and need to wise up to da big game. Don't be so simple as to believe a few rich AIPAC jooz control policy. Da US an' da West generally is da big winner in the Mid-East, not Israel. They play at diplomacy to ensure relatively cheap oil or da West would go down da toilet. Throwing a few billion at Israel/Egypt/Jordan an' propping up friends like Saudi helps keep da region divided where regional hegemony/self-interest would fuel deadly power plays like with Iran. Its da ole' divide an' control jig. Is it right? Maybe da US could go down da crapper otherwise.

Now this is a very interesting claim - the goal of US/Western policy in the Middle East is to "keep da region divided" via "divide and control" or the West goes down the tubes ...... Could WOTF have stumbled onto the truth for once....?

Certainly a regression analysis of US/Western policy towards the region supports this conclusion. If one looks at the outcomes of US/Western policy in the ME, it's difficult to avoid concluding that the initial goal was to induce chaos in the region, and that this goal has been in place for many decades. And that policy has been spectacularly successful in achieving its goal.

Of course, if one accepts this analysis, implicit in it is that the entire Israel thing has been pure expediency from the beginning. It has nothing to do with any notion of justice, or moral right, of fairness. Israel is seen purely as an instrument to induce chaos into the region. The Jewish people have been cynically used as a battering ram for Western interests. All the moral/ethical/fair play for the Jewish people arguments go straight out the window. In this view, they are utterly irrelevant.

In this view it's all about realpolitik, cheap oil and keeping the 'towelheads' in their place. Is it? Is there any merit in this perspective?

Da answer is yes and no. The US supported Israel's creation out of goodwill and still do but later it turned into a power play driven by USSR efforts to gain a monopoly over da 'rab world. Dat is why the US gave much greater support to Israel after 1967 and later pulled Egypt over to their side. It was an essential strategy to ensure fuel security in da Cold War

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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I specifically stated that "Zionists prefer silence and the possibility of being identified as a supporter of child abuse than accept that their side might be wrong in this instance". That is not an accusation. A "possibility" is not an accusation. An accusation is a direct statement of the type: "You are X"

You have been asked many times to comment on a specific allegation of child abuse contained in the OP. You have scornfully declined every invitation.

lol saying it's a "possibility" is still an accusation of sorts cause you still sling mud at an opponent to discredit them, and you raised it in da first instance. Thats cheap and vile.

What is cheap and vile is your refusal to dissociate yourself from the IDF's child abuse.

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Finally, after all this time, we get a comment from you on the allegations against the IDF. Do you condemn the child abuse? NO. You actually try to mount an oblique defence for it. You defend the IDF searching children.

The allegation is that the IDF is "arresting, intimidating, interrogating, assaulting and jailing children in Occupied Palestine". It is woefully inadequate to dismiss allegations against the IDF on the grounds that "so much shit is thrown at da IDF that it is fair to view much of it with scepticism. " The allegation comes from a credible non-partisan source, an Israeli journalist publishing in an Israeli magazine. Dates, names and locations are all provided.

Any organisation that kills over 1300 children in a decade needs to have every allegation of child abuse against it searchingly examined. Self-evidently, it has a serious problem dealing with children.

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I think it bears repeating that when someone makes a claim about a particular event, especially when it is an event that has to do with Israel, that claim should be treated with skepticism. All too often the people reporting on events here are subject to profound bias. This is especially true of the various blogs and websites affiliated with the radical Israeli left and other anti-Israel sites. One example is the 972 magazine website. (...) It is these posts and accounts that make it hard for me to trust the leftist accounts of events here; not only in Israel, but in the West Bank as well.

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I used 18 sources on this thread. 99% of 18 is <1. So basically you are saying every source I have used is partisan. My sources include www.ynet.com, an Israeli newspaper, 972mag.org, an Israeli magazine published by an Israeli human rights organisation, http://www.themedialine.org, an online media organisation (US-based I think) and other international (ie non-partisan) media. So you are alleging these sources are biased against Israel. That is a self evidently ridiculous claim.

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The figure of c1300 children killed by the IDF since 2000 came form the UN, as can be see. The figure is confirmed by an Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem, as. I note you don't provide a link to support your claims. DomKen argued that the figure was >1200. I agreed to use that figure for the sake of the discussion. The difference was minimal, not worth arguing about. I don't recall you having anything intelligent to say on the subject, let alone "good argument". Please post a link to support your claims if you want them taken seriously.

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That something is partisan doesn't make it untrue. It is a reason to be more sceptical than usual about a claim when it comes from a partisan source. But on its own partisan doesn't mean untrue. If Netanyahu says "The sky is blue/Gaza is a problem" he's telling the truth, despite Netanyahu being a self evidently partisan source. I note that you don't have any problem quoting partisan Israeli sources whenever it suits you. For Zionists, any report not favouring Israel is partisan.

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One way to eliminate this contentious point from this discussion is we can either agree to use partisan sources or agree to exclude partisan sources from both sides. So you choose. I'm happy either way, as long as whatever rule you choose applies equally to everyone. It's up to you.

Again I urge you to dissociate yourself from or condemn the IDF's systematic brutal abuse of children.

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Give it up WOTF. Anybody who tries to couch their prejudice in asinine pseudo-intellecutal phrases like "A regression analysis of US/Western policy towards the region...." is beyond reason.

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WOTF

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tweakabelle
The figure of c1300 children killed by the IDF since 2000 came form the UN, as can be see. The figure is confirmed by an Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem, as. I note you don't provide a link to support your claims. DomKen argued that the figure was >1200. I agreed to use that figure for the sake of the discussion. The difference was minimal, not worth arguing about. I don't recall you having anything intelligent to say on the subject, let alone "good argument". Please post a link to support your claims if you want them taken seriously.

The first link you provide goes to Richard Falk, an extremist who supports suicide bombing. I couldn't find any ref to that death toll in da second link. DomKen used a UN report for da 1,200 figure. Da 1,300 figure accepts over 300 children killed in Gaza 2009. That figure was based on da popular view 1/4 of those killed were terrorists. That was revealed to be untrue by Hamas who admitted more than half killed were operatives so a lot less than half that number of children would've died.

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WOTF
No one should abuse children but if children are used as couriers for bombs or even as suicide bombers then they must be searched like anyone else. That is even more a negative reflection on the Pals than the IDF if they use them, and they do!

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You quoted a "magazine" called 972. Just did a quick google search and this "magazine" (whatta fancy word for it) is just an anti-Zionist site owned by anti-Israeli "Israeli" bloggers. As Willbe siad its just a glorified blogger website. lol Saw this about it: http://balfourst.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html which proves one 972 contrbutor lied about a demo:

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I think it bears repeating that when someone makes a claim about a particular event, especially when it is an event that has to do with Israel, that claim should be treated with skepticism. All too often the people reporting on events here are subject to profound bias. This is especially true of the various blogs and websites affiliated with the radical Israeli left and other anti-Israel sites. One example is the 972 magazine website. (...) It is these posts and accounts that make it hard for me to trust the leftist accounts of events here; not only in Israel, but in the West Bank as well.