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RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:21:06 PM

SimplyMichael

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Most people in kink, in my opinion are dysfunctional, these boards, the answers, the larger kink community, all in my mind celebrate dysfunction over health. Look at your average leather event, most classes are about how to use floggers not how to create lasting relationships. One looks at long term couples, most have taken a fairly large step away from the "community" and in fact, in the old days of CM, there were many long term couples who had actually been part of the scene. Of course, people who are dysfunctional are most blind to that fact but the evidence is pretty clear.

As for people seeking to feel powerful by tearing other's down? Well again, you either see it or yu don't but many kinks when done poorly are exactly about doing that very thing.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 21

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:21:57 PM

ranja

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
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in my opinion people should have a fair amount of fun together...
if the relationship is all about serious/negative/make you feel bad stuff, well... then it is time to get out and hang with some people who manage to make you laugh instead, much more fun and a lot better for the soul... makes you look prettier too

(in reply to sweetlilcute)

Post #: 22

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:22:14 PM

NuevaVida

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This website was paramount in helping me realize i was not, in fact, crazy for thinking something was very wrong. I was convinced I was the problem and something was very wrong with me. I was enlightened beyond belief when I read through this site.

Keep in mind though, when you add D/s into the mix, some lines can get blurred. The thing to ask yourself when reading through this is if you relate to the feelings and self doubt being relayed.

www.youarenotcrazy.com

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to sweetlilcute)

Post #: 23

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:28:58 PM

SimplyMichael

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@NuevaVida,

You hated me when I told you that same relationship was abusive. Of course I did so in a pretty assholish way but would it be true that many here told you it was fine/okay?

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 24

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:34:21 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Most people in kink, in my opinion are dysfunctional, these boards, the answers, the larger kink community, all in my mind celebrate dysfunction over health.

100% agree.

On the other hand, people who do kink, even M/s, but don't primarily define themselves by it, seem to be just about as normal-to-whacked as the general population.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 25

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:41:39 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Most people in kink, in my opinion are dysfunctional, these boards, the answers, the larger kink community, all in my mind celebrate dysfunction over health.

OK, but back to something you and I have discussed -- your own thoughts actually. Is it really "people in kink" or "people who are actively visible in the lifestyle"? Do couples like MnB and Carol and I get counted when people do an eyeball survey of "the kink community"? I strongly suspect some sample bias in this one.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 26

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:49:32 PM

NuevaVida

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Joined: 8/5/2008
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When a person is that emotionally abused the first reaction is denial. "I can't possibly be in a relationship like that,are you kidding?". It is unthinkable to them, plus more often than not they think THEY are the one to blame...for everything. That brings their self esteem down even more. They don't see the abuse because that puts the "blame" on someone else, and since they are convinced it all falls on them, it just doesnt add up for them.

Add to that, here's this man I'm with, suffering so, because of MY bulkshit and now everyones calling him an asshole which makes ME even MORE of an asshole...and so it goes.

Telling an emotionally damaged person anything that makes them feel even less of themselves is unintentionally (or intentionally) adding to the abuse.

The things you said to me and the way you said it were crushing, and contributed to my feeling as badly as I did. People think "tough love" is the name of the game but sometimes it can do more damage than good. In some cases it's not tough love at all, but someone truly enjoying kicking someone while they're down, as is what happened on occasion with me.

Yes some people encouraged the abuse. Some people kicked me for the abuse. And the ones who helped me loved me in spite of the abuse, and took hold of my hand when I reached out.

People who don't understand the emotional complexities that stem from abuse risk pushing the abused further down. There is enough shame felt when you finally realize what you allowed into your life. Telling an abused person they are an idiot for being abused perpetuates the shame. A lot of folks are so far down they never find the strength to pull themselves back up. The key to helping an abused person is to help them achieve hope. Anything other than that risks making them feel like more of a loser and hinders their recovery.

Just my 5 cents from my own experiences.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 27

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:51:10 PM

SimplyMichael

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Jeff,

I think there are a lot of really fucked up people who are not part of the scene who do this "stuff"...and I don't think the leaders of the scene who are healthy speak out enough and plenty are not healthy enough to have anything worthwhile to say.

That said, exploring bdsm both in and out of the scene, has helped me in profound ways to grow and become a better man. I love it but I don't worship it.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 28

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:53:25 PM

Whiplashsmile4

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Joined: 12/2/2008
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There are no lines between M/s and emotional abuse. You don't have to be in an M/s relationship for emotional abuse to happen.

Some people are overly sensitive and if you don't phrase things all nice and neat in a way pleasing to their ears. They feel abused.

So it all depends, one could have lived a sheltered prime and proper life in the outbacks of mid west america. Another person could have come from The Bronx in NY. There's an extreme difference in attitudes as well as the verbal use of words.

What's abusive to one person, ain't to another person. What might be emotional daggers from one person is mere Nerf ball gun to another.

You have to step back and look at the over all picture of things, to figure it out for yourself in the relationship you're in.

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 29

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:53:32 PM

NuevaVida

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PS: Michael, most of the abuse came from my ex husband. Yes my ex owner was also abusive, but the damage was already done when I met him, which of course made me perfect for him. Crazy how that works but that's why abused people continue their own cycles..and continue to convince themselves that they deserve it.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 30

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 12:57:42 PM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Telling an emotionally damaged person anything that makes them feel even less of themselves is unintentionally (or intentionally) adding to the abuse.

The things you said to me and the way you said it were crushing, and contributed to my feeling as badly as I did. People think "tough love" is the name of the game but sometimes it can do more damage than good. In some cases it's not tough love at all, but someone truly enjoying kicking someone while they're down, as is what happened on occasion with me

My most sincere appologies and my most heartfelt congratulations on finding your way out and to realizing you are worthy of a great relationship.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 31

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 1:04:15 PM

NuevaVida

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Thank you Michael.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

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Post #: 32

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 1:05:19 PM

Nanako

Posts: 222
Joined: 2/7/2011
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

I try not to be too crazy ^_^

I generally agree that the people for whom kink is a part of their life like any other, are mostly sane ^_^

It's the ones like hotmasterdomlord1783 who only talks about his fetishes, that you have to worry about. I think most of those people are either a bit messed up, or extremely inexperienced (._.)

I feel like lots of sex has made me a more well-rounded person ^_^

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My thoughts on punishment

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Post #: 33

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 1:33:45 PM

Whiplashsmile4

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Joined: 12/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
PS: Michael, most of the abuse came from my ex husband. Yes my ex owner was also abusive, but the damage was already done when I met him, which of course made me perfect for him. Crazy how that works but that's why abused people continue their own cycles..and continue to convince themselves that they deserve it.

Those wicked cycles of abuse, what's amazing is that some people run on patterns which actually provoke abuse. I'm not saying that they deserve what they are looking for, only that some people end up in pushing for it. Many times subconsciously without being tuned into it.

It's difficult to deal with, because in a sense they are sort of pushing or forcing a person into the role of being the abuser. Where they themselves are engaging in hurtful behaviors or actions. It tends to escalates when you interact with them. Because they often end up egging abuse on, in a number of different ways.

This might make me sound like a heartless asshole, but I'll close the door extremely quickly and intentionally Kill these relationships. I'll do this without regards if it ends nice or ugly. I'll take and pour gasoline on the bridge and burn it, if I feel it's best. This is to insure that there's distance between me and the other person. I'll go the distance to make certain it's EPIC even.

The bottom line is that the people involved in our lives, effects and impacts directly upon our own lives. If you surround yourself and have alcoholics or drug users in your life, it's gonna effect you. The same hold true with people that have been caught up in the cycles of abuse.

I've actually have had to get rid of some people that I was rather fond of or cared about. It's not been easy, however it's been for my own good. I am very thankful for the friends and people that are in my life that I know I can count on and trust with my life. Very thankful for the peace of mind and stability these people bring and have.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 6/1/2011 1:36:31 PM >

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 34

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 1:40:16 PM

Sunnyfey

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From: OK
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To me, when anything along the lines of D/s is done WITH OUT CONSENT OR PRIOR CONSENT. It becomes abusive.

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(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 35

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 2:03:36 PM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Most people in kink, in my opinion are dysfunctional, these boards, the answers, the larger kink community, all in my mind celebrate dysfunction over health. Look at your average leather event, most classes are about how to use floggers not how to create lasting relationships. One looks at long term couples, most have taken a fairly large step away from the "community" and in fact, in the old days of CM, there were many long term couples who had actually been part of the scene. Of course, people who are dysfunctional are most blind to that fact but the evidence is pretty clear.

As for people seeking to feel powerful by tearing other's down? Well again, you either see it or yu don't but many kinks when done poorly are exactly about doing that very thing.

Thank you for the explanation. I sort of half ass agree with you. I believe that many dysfunctional people are drawn to kink, and for many different reasons. There are the supposed doms who are emotionally unavailable, and see being dominant as a way to avoid real intimacy, the control freak who gets off on controlling someone's every move (but can never get enough control), the sadist who gets off on pain b/c he hasn't a clue how to deliver pleasure during sex.

Then there are the emotionally abused s-types who look for and seem to easily find the above so they can perpetuate the cycle of abuse they feel comfortable with. I guess my question to you is, do you really think there is more dysfunction in "people in kink?"

B/c the vanilla world has a hell of a lot of dysfunction, the big difference being people cannot couch it in a lifestyle and thus make themselves feel okay about being abusers or victims.

And I agree that a poorly handled dynamic often leads to people feeling torn down and weak. But this is true of many relationships, including many long standing totally vanilla marriages. And it is not only males who seek to weaken another in an effort to shore up their own shaky ego.

Some people have been appropriatley socialized to be good with relationships, some have not. Some people have been emotionally damaged, and seek less than healthy ways to find love and acceptance, b/c they truly do not know any better. How many of them are "people in kink?" How many are just poorly adjusted lonely souls flailing around trying to find a way to understand who and what they are?

I think kink is like pretty much everything else in life, it's all about what you do with it. I've used it to better understand who I am and what I need to be happy. I did have to go through a string of very dysfunctional relationships, but that didn't have anything to do with me being kinky, it had to do with me being so dysfunctional myself I could not help but attract dysfunctional partners and have dysfunctional relationships.

_____________________________

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 36

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 2:31:12 PM

Whiplashsmile4

Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey
To me, when anything along the lines of D/s is done WITH OUT CONSENT OR PRIOR CONSENT. It becomes abusive.

This becomes a rather grey area too. Not too long ago, I hooked up with somebody here in town for a one night stand. This was after a few previous encounters with a lot of teasing and playing around while still clothed. Anyways, she had no idea just how kinky I was until we were in the middle of things. I myself suspected she was kinky..but a little uncertain of it.

I didn't even mention the word BDSM or D/s to her ass once (shame on me). She never gave me permission to end up spanking her ass, calling her dirty names and using her for fuckmeat. Plus I fisted her too. Playing one little, two little, three little indians...until you run out of little Indians and are left with the thumb (well you get the idea here).

The same with verbal humiliation and name calling. Start off light, see what the response is and if favorable slowly up the limit, keep kicking shit up the notches... (ALL very exciting territory to be exploring without having Laid all this crap down and up front).

I didn't ass if she liked her ass spanked, I just playfully slapped it a few times... repeat a little more intensely. OH shit! I'm giving a full on ASS spanking, with my other hand clinging a hand full of her hair.

The only thing consented to about this, was to have SEX with one another. There was no formal Consent up front for D/s play to occur. The thing was that I took my time exploring and testing limits and kicking shit up a notch, reading the response and reactions.

Anyway's she loved it. In our after the fact conversations, I confessed up about being being into BDSM. She's not into D/s outside of the bedroom and not very big on painful play. Like nipple clamps and crops and such are off the table.

Neither one of us is looking for a relationship from one another, mind you the full prospects for full play are rather limited. I can imagine if we have ended up playing back at my place instead of hers. I know I would have went for the floggers and restraints. Slowly seeing where I would have been able to take things. I know she would have freaked at seeing nipple clamps come out, perhaps a warm up with clothes may have worked. LOL then again who knows what could have happened.

The thing is that I was working off how she was responding to things. Doing things that she had not been expecting or dreamed about it. She does not know much about this stuff being a whole lifestyle per se, yet she herself loves kinky sex.

There's so much talk online regarding Consent on the message board, that it's not funny. Where we are expected to talk about every little thing down to the nth detail and reach some form of full agreement ahead of time. Whatever happened to simply doing at times, and being aware of how the other person is responding. It's almost as if submissive/bottoms are incapable or helpless little children at the mercy of us big bad Dominants.

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to Sunnyfey)

Post #: 37

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 2:58:17 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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When you're walking on eggshells, knowing it doesn't matter what you do, he will find a way for it to be wrong. When he looks for excuses to take his anger at other things out on you.

Once you've experienced it, you know.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 38

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 3:19:50 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
My own opinion? I suspect you know about the time you start asking yourself this question.

That was well said.

As far as other comments about the BDSM community and being dysfunctional . . . I don't think we hold and exclusive on it or even a disproportionate share compared to society in general. I tend to think we, like the gay community, have to be a bit more self aware, open minded and free thinking to accept and recognize our kinks. If anything, it would seem we are step ahead in emotional functionality compared to the norm.

_____________________________

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I give good thread.

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Post #: 39

RE: The line between M/s and emotional abuse? - 6/1/2011 3:45:01 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I guess my question to you is, do you really think there is more dysfunction in "people in kink?"

I'm not going to make the giant leap to say there is more dysfunction for "people in kink," but I will say that more of them are waving their banner of dysfunction and trying to say that within the "lifestyle," everything they are doing is right, normal (for kink) and completely healthy.

Have you ever noticed the number of people on these boards who say they have been molested as children, raped as teens or adults, abused as children or partners, suffer from PTSD, bi-polar disorder or the whole damn DSM-IV? Now I'm not saying that there aren't those that have suffered horrible, traumatic events, but around here, it often seems that there is a much higher number than you will see in the world at large.

Perhaps here, people are just more open about things they have gone through. However, if you read many of the comments from some of those people about their relationships, it isn't hard to sit back and ask, "gee, have they ever considered that they are using the kink in their lives to justify perpetuating real or imagined events from their past?"

Now, before the flaming begins from all the people who will undoubtedly line up to either defend their previous statements about traumas they suffered (and I am really not speaking of anyone specific here), those who will quickly want to condemn me for having the unmitigated nerve to make such a statement and therefore further abuse these poor, dysfunctional people, and those who will have to post how "their" relationship is nothing like that, think about this....

When you have to start defending your kink relationship even with kink people, you should start wondering what you are doing wrong.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 40

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