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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 4:19:47 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

THIS is poppycock, as is your very faulty view of AA.


I quit smoking after 23 years, and I never once had to become "powerless" over my addiction to cigarettes to stop. It was only when I felt powerless that I continued to smoke.

I have had other substances that I quit with similar views, all without a support group. Now I do not think it is bad to rely on a support group if you need support, but in my life being powerless never led to anything but a downward spiral.

Your experiences are yours.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 4:53:56 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I think the "I must admit I am powerless over my addiction" is poppycock.


THIS is poppycock, as is your very faulty view of AA.

"Here are the steps we took, which are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery."

Period. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking."

And you know, sorry, but someone struggling with alcohol IS powerless over it (NOT over the addiction), and life DOES become unmanageable--which is why the alcoholic goes seeking help, whether from AA or any other treatment option.

Nobody goes to AA on a winning streak. There's a problem, there are others who overcame it, so they ask their help.

Hell, that's how life should work in all areas.


Thank you for this, MM. I have found that a lot of people use their ignorance of AA & what actually can happen there as an excuse to stay drunk.

But I have worked with alcoholics for decades & there are some who truly can't get sober no matter what they try. I've met them & I've said goodbye to them as they died. Their failures to get sober had nothing to do with the tenets of AA or the lack of other help; they were simply incapable of getting sober & maintaining sobriety. I believe that's why the statistics have remained the same: 5% get sober & die sober no matter what programs are in place.

To tear down AA because you don't agree with their type of help may mean that someone who could have been helped by them will not get that help. This is why I was ok with my daughter taking her own path to sobriety: what works for you or what works for me isn't going to work for everyone.

I appreciate that your experience with addictions is different than mine, julia. The problem I have is your saying that AA is not a valid method of help because of your experiences & saying that it's "poppycock". I infer that what you are saying is that AA needs to be changed because you didn't have a good experience with it. I've not had good experiences with group therapy, but that doesn't mean that I think that group therapy is "poppycock" & that nobody should ever give it a try.

_____________________________

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That's how the light gets in
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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 5:08:05 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I appreciate that your experience with addictions is different than mine, julia. The problem I have is your saying that AA is not a valid method of help because of your experiences & saying that it's "poppycock". I infer that what you are saying is that AA needs to be changed because you didn't have a good experience with it. I've not had good experiences with group therapy, but that doesn't mean that I think that group therapy is "poppycock" & that nobody should ever give it a try.


I have attended meetings with other people, I never sought help from AA.

I have no problem with AA if people want to go there and they get something out of it. I am not one of these people that is against religion, either. I see AA as a faith based support group that is not based upon the scientific method. I do not see it as "treatment". I see it as a belief system. I also resent the courts mandating people enter AA, and I have a big problem with that because it gives AA credibility as a form of treatment for the disease of addiction, even though it has no more efficacy than if the person did nothing at all.

If I said to people who had cancer that they should just admit they were powerless against the cancer, etc, well I do not think would be an acceptable view. I think if alcoholism is a disease we need to treat it as such. When I researched alcoholism and withdrawal I was shocked that a person with a bad alcohol problem should seek medical attention and not just quit. I do not know if people realize it can actually be dangerous to do so. There are drugs that can be administered to help with some of the withdrawal symptoms that plague so many alcoholics, like sleep disorders.

My largest problem is not with people who go to AA, or people who believe it works for them. My largest problem with 12 step programs is that there is a very real perception that this is the only way to get sober. It permeates even our legal system. I do not know how many times I have read that 12 steps are the only way to get sober, and that isn't true.

I have had discussions with people who are involved with 12 step programs (AA or NA) and had them tell me repeatedly that I must not be an addict to quit without intervention of a 12 step program. I haven't used since I was in my mid 20s. So I have almost 20 yrs "sober" here.

And for me it is poppycock that we are powerless... it goes against the grain of everything I believe in.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 5:13:32 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		We are only powerless when we agree we are powerless. Is there any more dis-empowering belief possible? Power describes a relation between two or more entities, it's not a symptom of an allegedly incurable disease called addiction. Women were told we were powerless for centuries and we were, to a large degree. We were powerless only for as long as we went along with the belief. When we discovered our power through feminism and other means, all that changed and continues to change.

One of the many paradoxes of humans is that many find varying degrees of emotional comfort by surrendering control to an outside entity - be it a Higher Power, a drug, a deity, a distraction (eg book movie) whatever. However, neither this surrender nor comfort ought not to be confused with powerlessness. It is an outcome of exercising a choice.

Those addicted may have diminished power and control over their lives and behaviours, they may feel powerless but to assert that any one is ever powerless is fundamentally inaccurate IMHO. OTOH persuading people that they are powerless is a very successful tactic by the powerful to maintain and extend their power through controlling others' behaviours or, as in the case of addiction, persuading others to modify their behaviour.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/8/2011 5:21:51 PM >

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 5:35:23 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I appreciate that your experience with addictions is different than mine, julia. The problem I have is your saying that AA is not a valid method of help because of your experiences & saying that it's "poppycock". I infer that what you are saying is that AA needs to be changed because you didn't have a good experience with it. I've not had good experiences with group therapy, but that doesn't mean that I think that group therapy is "poppycock" & that nobody should ever give it a try.


I have attended meetings with other people, I never sought help from AA.

I have no problem with AA if people want to go there and they get something out of it. I am not one of these people that is against religion, either. I see AA as a faith based support group that is not based upon the scientific method. I do not see it as "treatment". I see it as a belief system. I also resent the courts mandating people enter AA, and I have a big problem with that because it gives AA credibility as a form of treatment for the disease of addiction, even though it has no more efficacy than if the person did nothing at all.

If I said to people who had cancer that they should just admit they were powerless against the cancer, etc, well I do not think would be an acceptable view. I think if alcoholism is a disease we need to treat it as such. When I researched alcoholism and withdrawal I was shocked that a person with a bad alcohol problem should seek medical attention and not just quit. I do not know if people realize it can actually be dangerous to do so. There are drugs that can be administered to help with some of the withdrawal symptoms that plague so many alcoholics, like sleep disorders.

My largest problem is not with people who go to AA, or people who believe it works for them. My largest problem with 12 step programs is that there is a very real perception that this is the only way to get sober. It permeates even our legal system. I do not know how many times I have read that 12 steps are the only way to get sober, and that isn't true.

I have had discussions with people who are involved with 12 step programs (AA or NA) and had them tell me repeatedly that I must not be an addict to quit without intervention of a 12 step program. I haven't used since I was in my mid 20s. So I have almost 20 yrs "sober" here.

And for me it is poppycock that we are powerless... it goes against the grain of everything I believe in.




I agree with you that there are many ways that different people get sober & stay sober. What I don't agree with is your saying that one method is "poppycock". I think that there are many many ways to solve a problem & each is as effective as the person deriving help from it. So your experience with getting sober is the same as my daughter's experience: she did it on her own. But she doesn't go around telling people that the way of 12-step programs is "poppycock". This is where we differ.

I'd like to ask you a question: if someone came to you & said that they needed to quit drinking & asked you for options, would you suggest AA?

_____________________________

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That's how the light gets in
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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 5:51:25 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

What I don't agree with is your saying that one method is "poppycock".


I said that teaching people they are powerless is poppycock, and I am not going to say otherwise. Now if the whole entire method of AA is based on powerlessness, then that still will not change my deep seated belief that it is poppycock

quote:

I'd like to ask you a question: if someone came to you & said that they needed to quit drinking & asked you for options, would you suggest AA?


I think that this would depend on the person I was dealing with. If it was someone like my brother, who is a Christian who believes in a power higher than himself that can help him face his life, I think AA might help such a person because they had bought into that entire way of looking at the world, so therefore they maybe helped by it.

Since I do not know very many people that are Christian, because the people I choose to surround myself with usually aren't, I probably would suggest going to a medical doctor. I would also suggest that they look into groups that relied on cognitive behavioral therapy as a way of dealing with their issues.

I know that many alcoholics are self medicating and suffer from depression and anxiety and use alcohol as a way of coping with these mood disorders. I think it is very important to be screened for these issues, and if one cannot cope with their anxiety by cognitive behavioral therapy alone, they may need to go on anxiety medication.

Alcoholism should be treated as a three pronged problem... it is a physical problem, an mental problem, and yes it is also a spiritual dis-ease... but so are many other dis-eases (in my opinion many diseases are produced by stress, and anything that can help people deal with stress is a good thing).

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 6:09:49 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


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From: Insanity & beyond
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

What I don't agree with is your saying that one method is "poppycock".


I said that teaching people they are powerless is poppycock, and I am not going to say otherwise. Now if the whole entire method of AA is based on powerlessness, then that still will not change my deep seated belief that it is poppycock

quote:

I'd like to ask you a question: if someone came to you & said that they needed to quit drinking & asked you for options, would you suggest AA?


I think that this would depend on the person I was dealing with. If it was someone like my brother, who is a Christian who believes in a power higher than himself that can help him face his life, I think AA might help such a person because they had bought into that entire way of looking at the world, so therefore they maybe helped by it.

Since I do not know very many people that are Christian, because the people I choose to surround myself with usually aren't, I probably would suggest going to a medical doctor. I would also suggest that they look into groups that relied on cognitive behavioral therapy as a way of dealing with their issues.

I know that many alcoholics are self medicating and suffer from depression and anxiety and use alcohol as a way of coping with these mood disorders. I think it is very important to be screened for these issues, and if one cannot cope with their anxiety by cognitive behavioral therapy alone, they may need to go on anxiety medication.

Alcoholism should be treated as a three pronged problem... it is a physical problem, an mental problem, and yes it is also a spiritual dis-ease... but so are many other dis-eases (in my opinion many diseases are produced by stress, and anything that can help people deal with stress is a good thing).


Being a Christian is not a pre-requisite to accepting a higher power to help you with your addiction issues. Many many atheists have allowed AA to help them. Plus Christianity isn't the only valid religion that accepts a power greater than oneself. I, for example, am not a Christian. And without the assistance that I received, I believe that I would have been dead more than 30 years ago. I did do a 3-pronged approach: I was admitted to a medical detox & then to a 90-day inpatient program & from there went to AA on my own, because I saw how it worked in people's lives. And I wanted what they had.

And yes, they told me in AA to avoid all psychotropic medications which I chose to not listen to because I have suffered from depression & anxiety since I was a child. So along with AA, I went to therapy & eventually started taking medications for those disorders. The thing is, I am a thinking person & I heard them when they said over & over & over again, "Take what you want & leave the rest." For the most part, nobody told me I had to follow any particular program to the letter. As MusicMystery pointed out, they only SUGGEST. Even Bill & Bob understood that fundamentalism wasn't gonna work on drunks.

I think that part of the reason that AA can be effective is that some people need to be held accountable. And that's part of how it works.

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
~~L. Cohen

Just one of the yahoo's

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 6:19:08 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Being a Christian is not a pre-requisite to accepting a higher power to help you with your addiction issues. Many many atheists have allowed AA to help them. Plus Christianity isn't the only valid religion that accepts a power greater than oneself. I, for example, am not a Christian. And without the assistance that I received, I believe that I would have been dead more than 30 years ago. I did do a 3-pronged approach: I was admitted to a medical detox & then to a 90-day inpatient program & from there went to AA on my own, because I saw how it worked in people's lives. And I wanted what they had.


You asked me a question, and I answered you as honestly as I could... if someone was open to hearing a doctrine of self empowerment I would recommend that over one that didn't promote that message.

quote:

And yes, they told me in AA to avoid all psychotropic medications which I chose to not listen to because I have suffered from depression & anxiety since I was a child. So along with AA, I went to therapy & eventually started taking medications for those disorders. The thing is, I am a thinking person & I heard them when they said over & over & over again, "Take what you want & leave the rest." For the most part, nobody told me I had to follow any particular program to the letter. As MusicMystery pointed out, they only SUGGEST. Even Bill & Bob understood that fundamentalism wasn't gonna work on drunks.


I think that it is a dangerous "suggestion" to recommend people not take medications that could well help them, and the reason why they abused drugs at all was because their brain chemicals were imbalanced. Now, I am no expert, but these well intentioned people should not be recommending any sort of medical treatment, or turning down one, for that matter.

I will go back to the cancer example. If I went to a holistic practitioner that "recommended" I take supplements and reject chemotherapy, and I did that... that would be a dangerous recommendation... to be honest, I was unaware they recommended people avoid real medical treatment... that even makes them more frightening to me to be honest.


quote:

I think that part of the reason that AA can be effective is that some people need to be held accountable. And that's part of how it works.


We cannot escape accountability, no matter whether we disappear in a bottle, or we don't... either way we pay the price, life is funny like that. I do not know what accountability has to do with powerlessness or with seeking real medical advice, instead of group think advice.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/8/2011 6:20:15 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 6:27:18 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


Posts: 8595
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From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline 		When we are drinking & drugging, we are doing everything that we can to avoid being held accountable or taking responsibility for our actions. One of the things that kept me sober the first 2 years was that I had made a pact with my then-husband that we wouldn't drink ever again. And I would go to AA meetings & I knew that if I drank again, I would have to face those people & have to tell them I messed up. They also gave me words of wisdom on how to get through each hour without resorting to drinking or another drug. This is what I am talking about when I say being held accountable.



_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 6:44:25 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		When I quit smoking I kept it to myself because if I failed I didn't want to fail in front of everyone. I had tried to quit before and failed, and I didn't want to feel that way again. It worked for me.

As far as accountable to others for my using, I felt most accountable to myself because even though my use had hurt other people, I was hurting myself the most. My experiences were far different. I didn't have a bunch of pissed off people in my life, and my mom was the only one that knew, really. Once in a while my sister would bring up something I may have said that was looney from that period of my life, but I always just said "wow, are you going to hold me to something I said YEARS ago?"

Basically I lost a lot of friends because I got clean, almost all of my high school friends. I lost my best friend because I would no longer lie for her. And the rest of my friends decided I had little in common with them anymore. I turned to my books, and made new friends, and made a new life... and through it all I had the support and love of my family, even if I was screwed up on and off for about 8 years... My use was sporadic from the time I was a young teen after my father died until I was a young adult, and I am talking hard drugs, not pot or a little booze. I got straight and my ex husband didn't. My son was my motivation, and I suppose if I felt accountable to anyone, it would have been to him. I didn't want to miss his childhood because I was high

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/8/2011 6:55:22 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 6:56:03 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


Posts: 8595
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Status: offline 		I think that it's quite clear that your experiences & mine are completely different & that we feel differently. What I said about accountability & a support group was that *some* people need this. You apparently did not. And I'm not saying that nobody should do it your way, because it can be a pretty effective way to do it. Just like AA is for *some* people. My problem comes with your saying that you would only recommend this method to someone who was Christian. Because of your belief system. Why would you want to deny the possibility of it to someone for whom it might be the best option?

In a way, that's the same as saying that someone with cancer has to get a certain treatment because in your belief system that's the one that works.

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
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That's how the light gets in
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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:00:24 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis

I think that it's quite clear that your experiences & mine are completely different & that we feel differently. What I said about accountability & a support group was that *some* people need this. You apparently did not. And I'm not saying that nobody should do it your way, because it can be a pretty effective way to do it. Just like AA is for *some* people. My problem comes with your saying that you would only recommend this method to someone who was Christian. Because of your belief system. Why would you want to deny the possibility of it to someone for whom it might be the best option?

In a way, that's the same as saying that someone with cancer has to get a certain treatment because in your belief system that's the one that works.



First of all, my primary recommendation to someone with a drug or alcohol problem would be to seek medical help (doctor can recommend to them what they should do). My second would be that they should know that others had overcome the same problem they had, and that they can quit, and that they had the power to overcome it.



_____________________________

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:01:28 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Julia,

You misquoted and misrepresented AA's approach to justify your own misconception.

I gave you the correct information; you ignored it to repeat your misconception.

If factual evidence matters not to you, then OK, the moon is purple.

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:05:11 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

First of all, my primary recommendation to someone with a drug or alcohol problem would be to seek medical help (doctor can recommend to them what they should do).


Mine sent me to AA. When I told him it didn't work, he sent me back.

When things got bad enough, I went back again, dropped the attitude, listened, quit, and stayed that way.

Best decision I ever made.

By the way, O Addiction Expert--perhaps somewhere among your accumulated wisdom, perhaps dusty on some shelf in your amazingly incredible brain, you'll discover the reams of material that point out nicotine and alcohol are two entirely different addictions, hardly comparable.

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:05:47 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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Status: offline 		You put one paragraph in response to me that really did nothing to factually contradict anything I have said.

AA suggests (recommends, proposes, advocates) that we are powerless over our addictions... I do not agree. There are lots of people just like me who disagree with that. Now, you agree with them and I don't. See how that works?

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/8/2011 7:06:25 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:07:53 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

First of all, my primary recommendation to someone with a drug or alcohol problem would be to seek medical help (doctor can recommend to them what they should do).


Mine sent me to AA. When I told him it didn't work, he sent me back.

When things got bad enough, I went back again, dropped the attitude, listened, quit, and stayed that way.

Best decision I ever made.

By the way, O Addiction Expert--perhaps somewhere among your accumulated wisdom, perhaps dusty on some shelf in your amazingly incredible brain, you'll discover the reams of material that point out nicotine and alcohol are two entirely different addictions, hardly comparable.


How about crack or meth... how about those addictions... similar there?


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:09:36 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

You put one paragraph in response to me that really did nothing to factually contradict anything I have said.


Then perhaps you should read it again.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I think the "I must admit I am powerless over my addiction" is poppycock.


THIS is poppycock, as is your very faulty view of AA.

"Here are the steps we took, which are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery."

Period. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking."

And you know, sorry, but someone struggling with alcohol IS powerless over it (NOT over the addiction), and life DOES become unmanageable--which is why the alcoholic goes seeking help, whether from AA or any other treatment option.

Nobody goes to AA on a winning streak. There's a problem, there are others who overcame it, so they ask their help.

Hell, that's how life should work in all areas.

quote:

AA suggests (recommends, proposes, advocates) that we are powerless over our addictions... I do not agree.

Nor do I. READ what I wrote above.
quote:

There are lots of people just like me who disagree with that.

What does that have to do with anything?
quote:

Now, you agree with them and I don't.

Again, no. Read.

Then you'll "see how that works."

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:11:49 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		AA Steps


1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/8/2011 7:13:12 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:14:51 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


Posts: 8595
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline 		Just out of curiosity again, julia, why do you keep ignoring the statement that precedes the 12 steps, the one that says they are *suggested* as a program of recovery?

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
~~L. Cohen

Just one of the yahoo's

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:15:17 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Good. Now read.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 80
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