Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (Full Version)

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Brain -> Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/5/2011 9:02:16 PM)

I never did think it was necessary to require God at alcohol anonymous meetings. I was able to quit smoking without any help from religion so I can't see why people need God to quit booze.



Does religion belong at AA? Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com

On Tuesday, Toronto’s two secular AA groups, known as Beyond Belief and We Agnostics, were removed or “delisted” from the roster of local meetings. They’ve disappeared from the Toronto AA website and will not be in the next printed edition of the Toronto directory.

The issue of AA’s use of God has come up frequently over the past 50 years. For the most part, the organization — which claims 113,000 groups around the world — permits other agencies to imitate its program, but not to call themselves Alcoholics Anonymous.

“This is not the first we’ve gone up against bigotry,” says Larry of We Agnostics. “This has been an ongoing struggle in North America.” One man wept in dismay over the delisting at Beyond Belief’s Thursday night meeting at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education on Bloor Street West. Thirty-two people, mostly men, sat at desks in a classroom. “I do believe in God,” he said after the meeting. “But you don’t need to believe in God to recover and I don’t think it’s appropriate at AA.”


http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1002750--does-religion-belong-at-aa-fight-over-god-splits-toronto-aa-groups


Catholic priest Fr. Pete Watters has been sober for 50 years. He says belief in a higher power, God, is essential to getting sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Photographed at St. Andrew Church in Oakville on June 3, 2011.


[image]local://upfiles/392475/0B7155FF70864F75B92BE6ED1529D888.jpg[/image]



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/5/2011 9:17:36 PM)

I am wondering what the big deal is here, some people who do not believe in god as a part of their sobriety split from those that do.... seems perfectly normal and natural to me.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/5/2011 10:24:33 PM)

AA is a fucking cult.

The Orange Papers



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/5/2011 10:25:17 PM)

I agree with you, if I had a problem they are the last people I would seek help from.



windchymes -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/5/2011 10:45:54 PM)

I remember the email I got from my ex who said he needed to "make amends" to all the people he hurt while he was "using the drug", and that I was at the top of the list.

I told him one amend he could make was to stop sugar-coating it and call it "drunk", that he could keep his amends, shove them up his ass and find someone else to help him relieve his guilty conscience.

As far as God at meetings, they advocate recognizing a "higher power" that is stronger than they are, not specifically God. But God happens to be the higher power that the majority there recognize.



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/5/2011 10:48:58 PM)

I just wanted to say how nice it is to see your avatar in this section....



windchymes -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/5/2011 10:51:54 PM)

I peek in but don't usually stay long, lol. [;)]



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/5/2011 11:09:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

I remember the email I got from my ex who said he needed to "make amends" to all the people he hurt while he was "using the drug", and that I was at the top of the list.

I told him one amend he could make was to stop sugar-coating it and call it "drunk", that he could keep his amends, shove them up his ass and find someone else to help him relieve his guilty conscience.

As far as God at meetings, they advocate recognizing a "higher power" that is stronger than they are, not specifically God. But God happens to be the higher power that the majority there recognize.
I've made amends, and am still doing so when possible, but I don't try to blame my assholish behavior on anything. Everyone screws up; some people cop to it, sociopaths don't.

Me, I just want to clean up my Karma, so to speak.

Being an Antitheist, I don't think "god" belongs anywhere except books on mythology.



tweakabelle -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 2:08:21 AM)

For anyone interested, there is now an alternative to AA for dealing with addiction issues.

It's called Smart Recovery. The programs there are guided by "reason and science" and influenced by Cognitive Behaviour Therapy. Smart recovery believes addictions are 'learned behaviours' that can be un-learned with time and effort.

It doesn't use a 'Higher Power' or 12 Steps. It deals with anyone who has issues over "addictive behaviours". Smart Recovery rejects the disease model favoured by AA and its sister groups. Smart Recovery doesn't compete with AA. It doesn't have a one-size-fits-all approach to this area.

Smart Recovery operates in Nth America, Australia and Europe and elsewhere. Smart Recovery has an on line presence. If you'd like to know more, you can view their website here




farglebargle -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 3:57:28 AM)

SMART is sort of AVERT-2.0 after they purged Jack and Lois from it because of their politics... Good stuff, but after they started getting real vocal about AA ( and while having an actual alternative ) well, you know...



DarkSteven -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 6:40:22 AM)

AA uses God as part of their program.  Now there are alternatives that do not use God.

If it works, more power.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 9:17:25 AM)

God has always been a part of AA.  If one wishes God to not be a part of their recovery then just simply go somewhere else.



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 9:51:39 AM)

I think AA is wonderful for the 5% of alcoholics that are helped by their program..

Of course there is a spiritual side to wellness, don't get me wrong, but I think faith healing doesn't belong in healing diseases. If addiction is a disease people with it need more than faith based solutions



thishereboi -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 11:35:30 AM)

quote:

I never did think it was necessary to require God at alcohol anonymous meetings.


I didn't think AA was the only available option for substance abuse treatment. If you have a problem with "god" or a "higher power" (which is actually what AA uses) then find another group that doesn't mention it. Why the hell should everyone else change to conform to your standards?



thishereboi -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 11:40:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think AA is wonderful for the 5% of alcoholics that are helped by their program..

Of course there is a spiritual side to wellness, don't get me wrong, but I think faith healing doesn't belong in healing diseases. If addiction is a disease people with it need more than faith based solutions


I have been to a lot of aa meetings and I can't remember "faith healing" ever mentioned or implied. How exactly do they use that?



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 11:42:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

I never did think it was necessary to require God at alcohol anonymous meetings.


I didn't think AA was the only available option for substance abuse treatment. If you have a problem with "god" or a "higher power" (which is actually what AA uses) then find another group that doesn't mention it. Why the hell should everyone else change to conform to your standards?



Do you think that someone who was offering faith healing for cancer should just be allowed to dispense that as "treatment" with no one challenging it? The fact of the matter is if AA sold itself as just a support group to those who wanted a place to come and talk, I wouldn't think anything of it... but people have been court ordered to go to these meetings as a way of treating their disease.

My largest problem with AA is that over 5 years only about 5% of those who start their program stick with it, and that is about the same statistic of people who spontaneously would quit on their own anyways. If people want to quit using this method and it works for them, that is fine, but AA constantly sells this garbage that their way is the only way and the only way is through a higher power. If you say you were able to quit on your own they will tell you that you weren't really an addict, because if you were you would not be able to quit on your own. This is not reasonable, or logical, or scientific... it is sold as though it is a real treatment option.

I would have the same reaction if a support group for cancer patients started selling their support group as a cure instead of as an aid.



LadyPact -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 11:46:52 AM)

I'm interested in your stats, julia.

Also, I'd have to point out that your wording isn't quite correct.  None of the twelve step programs are advocating that it is a "cure".



SilverMark -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 11:47:20 AM)

I would disagree with anything that stops people from getting help with a problem as insidious as addiction!
They need to get over themselves.



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 12:08:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm interested in your stats, julia.

Also, I'd have to point out that your wording isn't quite correct.  None of the twelve step programs are advocating that it is a "cure".



Oh, that is right, there is no cure....once you are an alcoholic you must never ever drink again or you will go right back to being a drunk[8|]. I know so many people who went through treatment, etc, and after a long period of abstinence were able to imbibe small quantities of alcohol, but they weren't "really" alcoholics either

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/aa-is-faith-based-not-evidence-based/

I can find peer reviewed articles about 12 steps being a nice supplement to other forms of treatment if you like..







Termyn8or -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 2:29:03 PM)

Religion doesn't belong anywhere, except inside you.

T^T



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