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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:17:40 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis

Just out of curiosity again, julia, why do you keep ignoring the statement that precedes the 12 steps, the one that says they are *suggested* as a program of recovery?



I am just "suggesting" that I think they are poppycock in my opinion, why aren't I allowed to think that they are poppycock if they are only suggestions anyways?

I do not know why my opinion is that freaking important to either you or MM, why does it matter that I think powerlessness is a destructive suggestion?

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:18:01 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

What I don't agree with is your saying that one method is "poppycock".

I said that teaching people they are powerless is poppycock, and I am not going to say otherwise. Now if the whole entire method of AA is based on powerlessness, then that still will not change my deep seated belief that it is poppycock
[...]

AA does not teach that we are powerless over everything, only over certain things.  The more general meaning of AA's First Step is that sane, serene living requires a realistic understanding of what we do and don't have power over.  We do have power over some things;  but there's a lot we don't, from the weather to other people to our emotions (as distinguished from how we choose to act on our emotions).  According to AA, trying to exert control over something we are powerless over makes one's life "unmanageable."  An alcoholic by definition can't control -- or at least not reliably -- their compulsion to drink.

Powerlessness in AA is not the same thing as helplessness:  Just because someone is powerless over something doesn't necessarily mean that there's not some constructive action available to them.

For example, trying to "control" the weather by fretting and complaining about it is a waste of time and makes one's life unmanageable in the sense of becoming agitated and wasting time and energy.  However, there are constructive actions we can take with regard to the weather, such as dressing appropriately and listening to weather forecasts.  Or an addict may be powerless over their compulsion, but they can choose to seek help.

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:19:50 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		The first step says you are powerless over alcohol and your addiction. It does not talk about the weather. It does not talk about power over the universe... it is a very specific power it is talking about, the power within yourself to control your behavior.


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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:23:04 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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Status: offline 		I think that the many folks, here and in my real life, that have used AA to get and stay sober prove that it is not "poppycock".   It is a tool that works for many, while others find a different path to follow.

I did plenty of drugs in the 70's and 80's, then I quit everything the day I found out I was pregnant.  Other than falling back in love with merrywanna a few years ago, I have not had any desire to do drugs again, and luckily I never fell in to the bottle. 

If I were an alcoholic who had found AA to be the thing that saved my life, I would be terribly offended by your calling it poppycock.  Many are powerless against addictions, and if handing it over to a higher power helps them find their way, how dare you try to tell them it is bullshit.  If giving faith to a higher power, be it gawd or wile e coyote or the birds that sing in the trees, gets you through the night and helps you become a better person, good for you.

As Linnea said, take what you want and leave the rest.  That is what we do throughout our lives, about many things.  Different strokes for different folks.

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:25:25 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis

Just out of curiosity again, julia, why do you keep ignoring the statement that precedes the 12 steps, the one that says they are *suggested* as a program of recovery?



I am just "suggesting" that I think they are poppycock in my opinion, why aren't I allowed to think that they are poppycock if they are only suggestions anyways?

I do not know why my opinion is that freaking important to either you or MM, why does it matter that I think powerlessness is a destructive suggestion?


It matters as much to me as it matters to you if someone suggests something to help someone which is outside your belief system.

I have no problem with your beliefs, what I have a problem with is your telling people that it isn't a good option for getting clean & sober & staying that way. Simply because you don't believe in it. Lots of people I know have done stuff I didn't think was a great idea, but their path is not mine to walk. I think that you actually have more of an emotional difficulty with the AA program than an intellectual one.

And no, it doesn't say that you are powerless to control your behavior. It says that you are powerless over alcohol. It doesn't say that you are powerless to change. It just says "alcohol". Where in that step is the word "addiction"?

< Message edited by LinnaeaBorealis -- 6/8/2011 7:27:10 PM >

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:26:35 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

If I were an alcoholic who had found AA to be the thing that saved my life, I would be terribly offended by your calling it poppycock. 



I never said that AA was poppycock, I said that the doctrine of powerlessness is poppycock. Now, that is my opinion, and I almost feel as though I am being attacked for insulting a religious group here, seriously.


If something worked for me, I do not think I would give a rat's ass if someone else thought it was ineffective.

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:30:55 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
[...] AA suggests (recommends, proposes, advocates) that we are powerless over our addictions... I do not agree. There are lots of people just like me who disagree with that. Now, you agree with them and I don't. See how that works?

AA does not claim that everyone is powerless over their addictions.  The AA "Big Book" states that if a person can quit or control their drinking on their own, then that's great for them!

You seem to be basing your opinion on your own experience.  It's admirable that you could overcome your addictions by yourself.  But not everybody can.  People are diverse -- not everyone is the same as you.  The method that worked for you might not work for someone else.

< Message edited by eihwaz -- 6/8/2011 7:33:51 PM >

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:32:06 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I have no problem with your beliefs, what I have a problem with is your telling people that it isn't a good option for getting clean & sober & staying that way. Simply because you don't believe in it. Lots of people I know have done stuff I didn't think was a great idea, but their path is not mine to walk. I think that you actually have more of an emotional difficulty with the AA program than an intellectual one.


Hmmmmm.... can you quote where I would tell someone to stay away from something that was helpful to them? I never did. I said I wouldn't suggest it to them, that is a different statement than I would disparage it. I even said I what I would tell someone that told me that they had that problem, which is to seek medical help. I think people should be evaluated for their issues medically

I have had this discussion with a friend of mine in AA, sat across from her and told her what I thought of the entire powerlessness thing, and she was not offended. I never told her it didn't work for her. I never told her she should quit... I have never said AA should be disbanded.

I do think it shouldn't be court mandated.

I do think that it is WONDERFUL that the scientific community is trying to come up with alternatives to the 12 steps, and that there was alternatives to it.





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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:33:33 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

You seem to be basing your opinion on your own experience.


I am basing my opinion on the efficacy of treatment, of the amount of people who spontaneously quit with no treatment at all. I am not alone in this, I am not an aberration

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:36:44 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I have no problem with your beliefs, what I have a problem with is your telling people that it isn't a good option for getting clean & sober & staying that way. Simply because you don't believe in it. Lots of people I know have done stuff I didn't think was a great idea, but their path is not mine to walk. I think that you actually have more of an emotional difficulty with the AA program than an intellectual one.


Hmmmmm.... can you quote where I would tell someone to stay away from something that was helpful to them? I never did. I said I wouldn't suggest it to them, that is a different statement than I would disparage it. I even said I what I would tell someone that told me that they had that problem, which is to seek medical help. I think people should be evaluated for their issues medically

I have had this discussion with a friend of mine in AA, sat across from her and told her what I thought of the entire powerlessness thing, and she was not offended. I never told her it didn't work for her. I never told her she should quit... I have never said AA should be disbanded.

I do think it shouldn't be court mandated.

I do think that it is WONDERFUL that the scientific community is trying to come up with alternatives to the 12 steps, and that there was alternatives to it.






Ok, I stand corrected. I somehow got the idea that you had said that you would recommend that someone *not* go to AA. My apologies.

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:42:13 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		I will say one thing... I have two good friends (we all hang out together) one who is a "dry drunk" and the other that is working the steps. The one working the steps has been at it for 5 years and she said something that stuck with me that made me question my addictions somewhat. She said she didn't have a drinking problem, everyone else had her drinking problem. In other words, she was happy when she was drinking, it was everyone else that was unhappy with it. On the other hand, I was never a happy addict, I had a problem with how it made me feel which gave me motivation not to feel like crap anymore....

My other friend that does not do the steps thinks she is bipolar and that was why she drank. But my friend doing the steps thinks it is because she is a dry drunk.


These things are so hard to categorize and to really know, it is best we get the science to treat this problem....

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:42:53 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The first step says you are powerless over alcohol and your addiction.


Again, no.

Look, if you're powerless over your addiction, then treatment is pointless, and recovery impossible.

If you're not powerless over alcohol, they why would you need treatment? There's no problem.

You keep slipping that bit that isn't there, even when repeatedly corrected.

That's not a matter of opinion--it's an error. And one stubbornly repeated.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/8/2011 7:43:46 PM >

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:45:07 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

If you're not powerless over alcohol, they why would you need treatment?


Feeling powerless and being powerless are not the same things

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:53:07 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I do think it shouldn't be court mandated.

I do think that it is WONDERFUL that the scientific community is trying to come up with alternatives to the 12 steps, and that there was alternatives to it.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with it being court mandated.  My reasoning for this is that many of the folks who attend basically to get their court paper signed, may not really want to be there, but some of the stuff sinks in.  I see it very much like the "scared straight" programs that are run by the correction system.  Went out and got yourself a DUI?  Sit in the room and listen to the person who killed a kid with their car, did a prison sentence, and is now in that meeting telling that story so that nobody else has to live with the guilt that will stay for the rest of his life.  If that court mandated person doesn't go to AA, but at the same time never drives drunk again, I'm all for it.


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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 7:55:02 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

If I were an alcoholic who had found AA to be the thing that saved my life, I would be terribly offended by your calling it poppycock. 

I never said that AA was poppycock, I said that the doctrine of powerlessness is poppycock. Now, that is my opinion, and I almost feel as though I am being attacked for insulting a religious group here, seriously.

The frustration several of us are having is that you persistently misconstrue the AA concept of powerlessness.

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 8:00:45 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		I do not think I am misconstruing it

Step number one seems pretty self explanatory...Powerless over alcohol.

In my belief system step number two is dubious too, because I do not necessarily think there is a higher power that can restore a person to sanity, and I do not think alcoholics are insane.

And I definitely think step 3 is something that is incongruous for me, because I do not think that there is anyone we can turn our will over to.

And I am reading these steps literally






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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 8:06:57 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I think people should be evaluated for their issues medically

Agreed .  It's believed that many alcoholics are medicating their clinical depression, for example.  Just as a matter of historical perspective, there were no viable medical options for those who founded AA in 1935.  I'm not sure that the medical approaches which exist now, while they may be helpful or even necessary, are by themselves sufficient for certain people.

I don't find opposition to medical approaches in the AA literature, so I don't know where AA groups got the idea that medications -- psychotropic medications, in particular -- contravene AA principles.  The notion seems to reflect a sort of AA fundamentalism.  I agree that it's irresponsible, if not unethical, of AA individuals or groups to advise people to stop taking medications prescribed by a physician.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I do think it shouldn't be court mandated.

Agreed that this is problematic because of the religious issue, among others.  I have a friend in AA who feels that court mandated AA attendance has not been good for AA -- the effectiveness of the program as a support group depends in part on a sufficient proportion of participants with a sincere desire for help with their addictions.  Hopefully, in future, there will be more choice in programs and modalities.

ETA: changed "controlling" to "for help with"

< Message edited by eihwaz -- 6/8/2011 8:28:02 PM >

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 8:09:27 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I do think it shouldn't be court mandated.

I do think that it is WONDERFUL that the scientific community is trying to come up with alternatives to the 12 steps, and that there was alternatives to it.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with it being court mandated.  My reasoning for this is that many of the folks who attend basically to get their court paper signed, may not really want to be there, but some of the stuff sinks in.  I see it very much like the "scared straight" programs that are run by the correction system.  Went out and got yourself a DUI?  Sit in the room and listen to the person who killed a kid with their car, did a prison sentence, and is now in that meeting telling that story so that nobody else has to live with the guilt that will stay for the rest of his life.  If that court mandated person doesn't go to AA, but at the same time never drives drunk again, I'm all for it.



The problem is the first amendment


quote:

Summary

The trend of current case law shows that forcing a prisoner or probationer to attend A.A. or N.A. or other religiously centered rehabilitation program is increasingly seen as a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Courts from the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 11th Circuits have all explicitly or implicitly ruled that this is true. In order to establish such a claim, prisoners must generally show three things: (1) that the program is religious; (2) that if they do not attend the program they will either (a) lose some benefit they are otherwise entitled to or (b) be subject to some detriment or punishment; and (3) that there is no secular alternative available.
http://www.ffrf.org/faq/state-church/court-ordered-participation-in-a.a/


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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 8:18:08 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ust as a matter of historical perspective, there were no viable medical options for those who founded AA in 1935.  I'm not sure that the medical approaches which exist now, while they may be helpful or even necessary, are by themselves sufficient for certain people.


I would agree with that. I am not against every aspect of AA.... like having someone you can call when you feel you want to drink, for example.


quote:

I don't find opposition to medical approaches in the AA literature, so I don't know where AA groups got the idea that medications -- psychotropic medications, in particular -- contravene AA principles. The notion seems to reflect a sort of AA fundamentalism. I agree that it's irresponsible, if not unethical, of AA individuals or groups to advise people to stop taking medications prescribed by a physician.


I remember going to one meeting where a woman talked about getting into a car accident and she said that she was freaking out because they gave her pain medication. She was an alcoholic, but she felt any sort of medication could cause her to fall off the wagon. But before what LB said, I didn't even know that depression medication and anxiety meds were frowned upon

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits T... - 6/8/2011 8:34:53 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


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Status: offline 		Please remember that when I got clean & sober, it was 1976. When I started working in a teaching hospital in 1980 & I saw how misinformed the interns & residents were about alcoholism, I asked one how much time in their 8 years of school was devoted to alcoholism & other addictions. He told me that they received 8 hours' of instruction about it. 8 hours!!!

It was a different world back then. I have no idea how much time is devoted to this issue in medical school now. I haven't asked anyone. The thing that I'm finding now are Dr's who are extremely cautious about giving opioids to a recovering alcoholic/drug addict even after 35 years of sobriety. The pendulum has swung too far the other way, I'm afraid. So now I have chronic pain & my doctor's afraid to give me enough pain killers to get it under much control. It doesn't matter that I assure them that I don't become addicted to them, that I only take them for pain & when I don't hurt I don't take them. I have no desire to ever get high again.

So what I have said about what people told me in AA back then need to be viewed in context. And also please remember that I took what I wanted & left the rest. I tried doing it the way it was suggested for my depression; it didn't work, I found another way & still maintained my sobriety.

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Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
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That's how the light gets in
~~L. Cohen

Just one of the yahoo's

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