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angelikaJ -> RE: Masters, do you ever... (6/21/2011 5:38:40 PM)
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ORIGINAL: TheChastiser
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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
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ORIGINAL: TheChastiser
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ORIGINAL: Acephale
fall in love with your subs?
most definitely not. i care for and nurture but leave love where it belongs. it means that emotional blackmail does not enter the relationship.
Mike
You are right, if you love someone, they can emotionally blackmail you. They can hurt you. This would mean you, as the dominant, would not have all the power all the time. I ask you to consider why that is such an issue for you.
And also, where in your mind, does love belong?
no, it simply removes all the 'if you loved me you wouldnt do that' type of stuff. there are no issues. there is no need to dig deep, there is nothing buried there. yes i care for those i hurt, but i also enjoy it, its who i am.
Mike
This post from a long defunct thread (and please don't go and post on it; that will make the mods very unhappy) by a poster who is not on the boards anymore, had an entirely different take and one that says you can and should do that stuff to those you love:
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ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES
Given the posts I'd jumped into recently it dawns on me that if people do not know a bit about where you stand on some things or where you come from in your view of a relationship, you leave them little room to consider you as a person when they reply. So, I've put together a few thoughts here that I often pass on to people in email or the like, to let people know how I think.
The standard disclaimer applies here. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m27.gif[/image]These are MY thoughts alone and they are not intended as some sort of hint that they should be yours too. It's not a rant, it's not critical of anyone, and it's not designed to raise hackles or promote homicidal thoughts. I'm not quoting anyone else's writing, save for Patrick Overton's quote, and so while the principles certainly exist with countless others, the words are mine alone. The recent topic on "Dom responsibility" prompted this posting - I simply did not want to hijack that thread with a long post. The tenor of the writing is such that it is intended for reading primarily by submissive women but certainly the thoughts can be read/understood by most anyone in any D/s construction. It is limited by my experience in life so it does not cover a myriad group of possible D/s relationships and variants thereof. Though it may seem somewhat generalized, it is again, an amalgamation of things written to specific people and audiences. If it reads like I'm trying to play teacher, please overlook that and read it for content. Hopefully when I post something in the future, you can look at it and say..."oh geez...yeah...THAT guy... "
:)
What I believe is that the best D/s relationship for me, is the one devoted to improving the totality of life for both partners. You're not disciplined and taught to obey because of "what" a man is...but rather because of what he is TO YOU and what you have with him. For some of us, by our definition of such a relationship, there is a greater purpose to what we do beyond "play". That is our choice. Yes, we do have in this sort of relationship possess passion and sexual power...but in my view, that is because of the relationship - not the opposite.
In every civilization for eons, the acceptance of pain/control as a ritual passage into a higher state has been an enduring human rite and practice. Such rites of passage are not always forced - most times they are inspired. The surrender - (not the taking) - of a submissive woman's will is an act of supreme faith on both sides of the ledger. It comes from a belief that your man/Master can take you where you need to go, and want to go - and his belief that you are sincere in your desire to allow him such dominion. You feel this is right for the woman you are to your very core (the need) and you pursue it with passion and ardor (the want.). This is the definition of a positive obsession. The marriage of need and want - as opposed to a negative or bad obsession where you are compelled to do something out of an insatiable need, but may do so reluctantly or with a thought you are powerless to stop yourself. (Drugs, alcohol, ...etc...)
Consider this....
What I feel we are living in a M/s relationship, is a very animal passion...a very primal one rooted in the very reality of the relative position of man and woman. Woman, needs a strong man; man needs to possess his woman and her compliance with his needs. It lives in both partners. ...an explosion of need, a primal, animal lust to be ravished with your will meaning nothing, and his literally overcoming yours physically but even more importantly by implication, emotionally and cerebrally. Your wanting to be conquered and to become property....to be shown and to understand that the only will that shall be is your Master's will. Yet is is all consensual. Far from a defiance or resistance, this is a very animal need to be conquered....and to be taken to where both you...and your Master...need you to go. For the submissive/slave, there is a very intense feeling of security in knowing her Master will be consistent - no matter what the situation she poses to him - in his ownership of her.
On the Master's side, the ownership of her, is rooted in the same sort of passion, the same degree of need. His overcoming you and compelling you to comply and surrender, is rooted in his confidence in his ability and desire to rule over you. It is his desire and need that you will always be subjugated to - by compliance or when needed, by overpowering you in the most appropriate way for that moment. There is no anger in a mean sense, only the ultimate conquering...and then your realization that your Master will have you and your mind will be spread even further than your legs. Every moment of the entire experience....primal passion...unbridled lust....animal instinct....the need for pain...the need for control...his exercise of his place over you as his slave.....all leading to your ultimate and wanton surrender.
BUT...it is all by consent. It is in fact more then mere consent, it is informed consent. After all, what is the more intense experience? To be drawn into a whirlpool of surrender by happenstance, or to fully understand the beast, and willingly walk toward it and allow it to embrace you?
That in turn brings me back to a Master having a tremendous responsibility. A slave has a genuine need to serve, and she takes joy in her service. We have a duality of responsibility as Master to that woman. We must love, nurture, and protect her on all levels....because she is allowing herself to be so vulnerable....and we must use her relentlessly, with abandon... because she desires to BE vulnerable. That, is no small balancing act to attempt. It seems almost contradictory, does it not?
I have often read and heard the debates, within the D/s and BDSM world, that love is incompatible with a D/s or BDSM/Sm-related relationship. It seems many people have a story about how their incredible D/s relationship went down the tubes when one or another partner fell in love with the other. Men, who are sometimes in this type of relationship solely for the pleasure of it all, can see "love" as a needless complication. Actually what they are really saying, is that the whole concept of no-strings sex is a lot more fun and a lot less effort than actually making a commitment to someone....and yes, there are women who prefer such an arrangement for a number of reasons. That set of views is fine of everyone knows it going in. All of life's endeavors need not be complicated by intense emotion. Such relationships have never attracted me, because I need more....not just from her, but from myself.
Surprisingly, at least to me initially, as I looked into all this, was the number of female submissives/slaves who felt that their Master's new-found "love" for them caused the D/s part of their life to suffer. The common thread was that over time, they were not being allowed/compelled to serve, that they were being treated less like a submissive and more like a vanilla love/lover. Things like floggings became less intense, the Dom was no longer enforcing his own standards for her, and what was once always clear, was now muddy. Master Powerful, had morphed into a curious sort of highly-sexed Ward Cleaver. Yes, those same things can happen as a natural result of a drifting apart, but in these cases, the women expressly said that it was a phenomenon that paralleled the introduction of romantic love into the relationship.
Here's a big surprise. We men - even Dominant men - can be slow learners in some things. It took me a long time to learn something that should have been as obvious to me as the fact that the sun rises and sets each day. A submissive /slave, NEEDS to serve to feel completed. OK, that is obvious. What was not obvious, is that reinforcement of that need by continual , consistent, unwavering, action of the Master, is paramount. D/s relationships seem to not do not do well on auto-pilot.
Simple concept, obvious concept....but one that I at least, did not "get" for a long time. A submissive woman needs ongoing clarity. A submissive needs not to be adrift. A slave needs defined borders. A submissive needs to provide, to give, to know she is serving. She needs all of that to be constantly reinforced, every day. The key word here, is "constantly reinforced". That is the part I did not "get" for the longest time ..... and maybe for you such reinforcement is not always needed....but this all feeds into responsibility on the Dom's part.
Let me offer a Patrick Overton quote I believe so perfectly fits the M/s relationship.....
"When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly.”
It is about not only being present just the other side of that edge of light - but it is also about being intellectually and spiritually honest about your ability and your willingness, to do what you promised her you would do as you encouraged your woman to walk toward that edge. If I accept the surrender of a woman as my submissive, and I expect that she will surrender the totality of her essence, her being, her body and her spirit to me, then I had better be prepared to be what I claimed to be, continually, not sporadically. Does that mean issuing endless orders, constantly assigning tasks, continual whippings, night and day sexual service? No, of course not. It means that in taking Ownership of a woman, you take Ownership of ALL she is and you take Ownership of her need/desire to serve - which in a truly devoted woman, is NOT sporadic in nature. A submissive woman needs to serve. A submissive needs boundaries reinforced. A submissive cannot feel adrift, or unguided. A submissive needs limits, control, use of her mind, heart and body, and she needs to know ...through real feedback...that you are pleased with her. When we abandon our submissive, when we "compartmentalize" her in our busy life and get to her when we can, what we really do is starve her emotionally , spiritually and cerebrally. We must not only be her Master, but her strongest supporter and cheerleader in life. A submissive cannot serve, on her own. She cannot serve by being a quiet piece of furniture in the corner, used only when time is available. As a Master we have to be responsible for the teaching, nurturing, and continued opportunities for service we give the woman we Own. In other words, we need to not only turn her on and excite her with words. Words only get you so far. We need to have the ability to FOLLOW THROUGH. The old saw that "actions speak louder than words"...is no less true in this situation as anywhere else. One must have the time, and the ability and the willingness, to deliver on what we promise her. That, is responsibility.
What I hear when people tell me love seems to be hell on D/s relationships...when it IS hell (and it is not always...) it seems to be because in most cases, the Dominant forgot why he was there in the first place and why his woman surrendered to him. Women seem to have no issues with merging the concepts of love and commitment, with the concepts of Ownership, pain and pleasure.
A Master is in trouble when he does not play to win, and instead, he plays NOT to lose. A slave needs her Master to be willing and able to put it all on the line, all the time. Total Ownership of another human being means that you have to be willing and determined to be what you represented yourself to be in the first place...the defining authority in her life. You have to be willing, able and determined, to compel and enforce her service by your standards, by your protocols, by your rules, and for your pleasure. You must do so consistently, and especially - especially - when to do so puts the relationship at risk. There is no paradox there. If having this submissive in your life, is more important than having this woman as your submissive, (two vastly different concepts...) then you are playing not to lose, and she will sense that. Over time, control will be replaced by complacency...discipline replaced by indifference.....submission replaced by willfulness. The wheels will begin to fall off the wagon.
In my relationship with a woman, a "smarter" me will strive to be a "true" Master and I will play ONLY to win. I will be responsible for her and for the quality of what we share as Master and submissive. I will set the fences, I will monitor them constantly, I will do whatever is needed on any and all levels, to live up to My Ownership of her. I will love you completely, deeply, and with abandon. I will set rules, I will reward, I will compliment, I will discipline, I will encourage, I will pay rapt attention, I will be a constant and unmistakable presence, I will teach, I will support, I will befriend, I will reward her body, I will reward her mind, I will reward her heart. There will be no ambiguity, there will be no slack, there will be no backing off, there will be no compromise on principles. Yet, we will live a full life as Master and submissive, lovers, friends, partners. Our vanilla life and our love will be as vital and as rewarding as our life as Master and submissive because....we will be Master and submissive above all else. Any relationship needs to function on ALL levels. These are, real relationships we have. But when it comes down to it...one Owns and one is Owned. That simple fact, is the most important and final arbiter of everything in their lives. It is what every conflict, every decision...finally comes down to. The certainty of that, and his willingness to enforce it - and her willing and loving subjugation to that principle...is the bond that ties when all else cannot.
I strive to live up to all you had read above and still have a way to go to be true to what I believe. I'm not there yet. I have a framework in mind and now am striving to make the man and the words synonymous.
Respectfully;
Ds4
From this nearly 4 year old thread:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1240921/mpage_1/key_Love%252CBDSM/tm.htm#1240921
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