RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist?

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 10:38:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexisubi oh sub drop!! sigh i feel like ive been on a sub drop for 8 months just cause my sub side is caged again. like a kitten trying to get out of her carrier! purrrroar! purrroar! Perfect example of someone using the term to cover something that isn't sub "drop" at all.

sexisubi -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 11:19:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: sexisubi oh sub drop!! sigh i feel like ive been on a sub drop for 8 months just cause my sub side is caged again. like a kitten trying to get out of her carrier! purrrroar! purrroar! Perfect example of someone using the term to cover something that isn't sub "drop" at all. let me explain LadyPact, when i thought of oh sub drop... i thought of an experience when i was in a session where the Dom did something that was not discussed before hand that hurt me, from a high wow i went to ow and cried uncontrollably and just wanted to be alone.. or wanted him to cuddle.. until i wanted to be alone again, with blankets and pillows, cause its a safe zone for me... also odd how you want your Dom to cuddle you sometimes leave you alone others when youre in a state like this. probably cause they were the ones to cause the pain but bring you comfort in a weird kinda way. when i said i feel like ive been in sub drop its because i havent D/s'd in ages, and i dont want to cause i was in love and now i am uncertain and not with him but with him... blah blah its a complicated not a CM board story... but a heart breaker on my end. i hope that helps clear things up... i felt the topic was covered and it was my small phrases on the topic that just came from the heart, maybe they were made just for me and that was selfish but now they can be everyones since i explained in short. be well.

juliaoceania -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 11:39:02 AM)
It clears things up, but it is a wrong usage of the term "sub drop" and probably why the OP posted this discussion, because people use it as a catchall for everything wrong with them in a D/s relationship.... instead of feeling abandoned, subs say they are "dropping". Instead of saying they feel insecure, they attribute it to "drop".. Sub drop is a physiological response to kinky play in which the brain is loaded with neurochemicals, the drop is like coming down off a high.

LadyPact -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 11:39:42 AM)
Which is something of, if I'm not mistaken, part of the premise of the thread. Very much like every time somebody is a bit cold, because they happen to get shivers immediately after a scene, any time they do get shivers, they want to label it as sub drop. They skip the fact that, gee, they knew the sensation of 'chilly' long before they ever got involved in BDSM play. I know. It's not anywhere near as cool sounding to just realize that people who happen to be submissives experience the same things that everybody else on the planet does at some point in their lives. Much more hip sounding to label every feeling as similar to 'sub drop'.

sexisubi -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 12:11:42 PM)
I think its different, like being interrupter during great sex or romantic moment, and having to immediately get out of feel good zone and not relax and take it easy before returning to life. any time you're faced with a roll a coaster ride from High to nin, you are experiencing a "drop". Dom drop sub drop . male and females experience drops when they go from high to bye bye. i think its also important to note... that drops can come in many forms, but its a rush of some kind of emotion, whether it be anger, or sadness... you experience a rush of emotion that is far from what you were experiencing two seconds before the "drop" occurred. a shiver of cold is like a change in temp, and not really like a storm of emotions that can occur during a drop, but if i were to take your body temp. from 98 right to 87, that's a drop its not a gradual come down... its immediate, and creates terrible reactions in the body. (lol not that anyone wants to have their body temp drop that low ever but it was an example.) its also a bit longer and more intense then just a chilly day.. =) as most emotions are. =) so i guess in away i agree with you we are knowledgeable about our emotions but now when we feel... SOOOO GOOOD! and then forced to feel something else the intensity might stay the feelings change and create an emotional situation for the persons involved. the talk of oh this is why i felt this way can come later... but the feelings we experience are intense at the time that's why i am using the word sub drop. even if they are not as intense as the sub drop goes away we can go out and talk like it wasn't that bad. in fact i remember laughing about it after, its a matter of the intensity. anyway this is my opinion! =) and everyone has their own way of looking at it but this is the way i see sub drop, and that moment wasn't that bad, but because i was in sub mode and the emotions rushed over me, then yes me emotions were more intense then they needed to be.

angelikaJ -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 12:36:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexisubi quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: sexisubi oh sub drop!! sigh i feel like ive been on a sub drop for 8 months just cause my sub side is caged again. like a kitten trying to get out of her carrier! purrrroar! purrroar! Perfect example of someone using the term to cover something that isn't sub "drop" at all. let me explain LadyPact, when i thought of oh sub drop... i thought of an experience when i was in a session where the Dom did something that was not discussed before hand that hurt me, from a high wow i went to ow and cried uncontrollably and just wanted to be alone.. or wanted him to cuddle.. until i wanted to be alone again, with blankets and pillows, cause its a safe zone for me... also odd how you want your Dom to cuddle you sometimes leave you alone others when youre in a state like this. probably cause they were the ones to cause the pain but bring you comfort in a weird kinda way. when i said i feel like ive been in sub drop its because i havent D/s'd in ages, and i dont want to cause i was in love and now i am uncertain and not with him but with him... blah blah its a complicated not a CM board story... but a heart breaker on my end. i hope that helps clear things up... i felt the topic was covered and it was my small phrases on the topic that just came from the heart, maybe they were made just for me and that was selfish but now they can be everyones since i explained in short. be well. ... I think its different, like being interrupter during great sex or romantic moment, and having to immediately get out of feel good zone and not relax and take it easy before returning to life. any time you're faced with a roll a coaster ride from High to nin, you are experiencing a "drop". Dom drop sub drop . male and females experience drops when they go from high to bye bye. i think its also important to note... that drops can come in many forms, but its a rush of some kind of emotion, whether it be anger, or sadness... you experience a rush of emotion that is far from what you were experiencing two seconds before the "drop" occurred. a shiver of cold is like a change in temp, and not really like a storm of emotions that can occur during a drop, but if i were to take your body temp. from 98 right to 87, that's a drop its not a gradual come down... its immediate, and creates terrible reactions in the body. (lol not that anyone wants to have their body temp drop that low ever but it was an example.) its also a bit longer and more intense then just a chilly day.. =) as most emotions are. =) so i guess in away i agree with you we are knowledgeable about our emotions but now when we feel... SOOOO GOOOD! and then forced to feel something else the intensity might stay the feelings change and create an emotional situation for the persons involved. the talk of oh this is why i felt this way can come later... but the feelings we experience are intense at the time that's why i am using the word sub drop. even if they are not as intense as the sub drop goes away we can go out and talk like it wasn't that bad. in fact i remember laughing about it after, its a matter of the intensity. anyway this is my opinion! =) and everyone has their own way of looking at it but this is the way i see sub drop, and that moment wasn't that bad, but because i was in sub mode and the emotions rushed over me, then yes me emotions were more intense then they needed to be. Sub Drop is a specific term for something that follows "sub space" but I can understand your confusion of terms. However, in your case, being in a good place and then being abruptly yanked into something dark via pain that wasn't negotiated must be quite unpleasant.

ranja -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 12:44:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Sub Drop is a specific term for something that follows "sub space" 'sub drop' is a made up term by a bunch of kinksters... i personally am ok with anybody using the term as they see fit ... same for 'sub space'... its just a load of bollocks really sub drop is just emotions sub space is just a bit of a trance like state there really is nothing much specifically bdsemmy or even 'sub' about it

DesFIP -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 12:58:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Which is something of, if I'm not mistaken, part of the premise of the thread. Very much like every time somebody is a bit cold, because they happen to get shivers immediately after a scene, any time they do get shivers, they want to label it as sub drop. They skip the fact that, gee, they knew the sensation of 'chilly' long before they ever got involved in BDSM play. Obviously I do get cold at other times. However I am always freezing after play. I have learned from experience that if I don't have the quilt there to wrap up in, it will get progressively worse to a point where I am shaking so hard that I'm unable to hold a tea cup without spilling. I am attributing this to play because normally if I'm cold, I don't go downhill like that. Instead I stay at the same level of chilliness.

CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 1:20:55 PM)
OwnedFemaleFlesh, I have not read your entire thread and will be responding only to this first post. If the thread went in other directions...my fault for not reading enough. quote: ORIGINAL: OwnedFemaleFlesh In my time in the scene, I have witnessed the evolution of this phenomenon. It used to be said that sub-drop was something that affected a submissive after a scene - where they might be tired, thirsty, possibly requiring a blanket and a glass of water or maybe just a big hug, to something that now seems to be more akin to an LSD flashback taking place hours, days or even weeks after a scene, party or other BDSM episode, and involving tears, tantrums, depression, feelings of jealousy and paranoia, self-harm and violent or irrational behaviour that can last from a few hours up to several weeks, and often requiring time off work. All of which requires a Dom who not only totally accepts and understands this behaviour, but is on hand to pamper the submissive in every way possible. I haven't been in the scene all that long, only around seven years. I never tried LSD, lol, but I can guess at what you mean. The subdrop I have seen has been from D/s withdrawl, usually within 24 hours to even the third day. I just see it as the pendulum swinging to it's equal but opposite side, unless acted upon by an outside force...basically getting another dose of hair of the dog that bit ya. Tantrums, jealousy, paranoia, and self-harm, in my opinion, sound more like insecurity, possible incompatibility, and that we have opened up old scars that need more time to heal...and maybe with the help of counseling or support groups than subdrop. Some people are more difficult than others. We have to decide for ourselves if they are worth the sacrifice of our time and attention. With my son who was diagnosed with Early Infantile Autism, I was never forced to deal with him. I had option, I could institutionalize him and have my life back again or I could suck it up and do what needed to be done so that he ended up better off. I never resented him or felt forced into all this caretaking, because I am the boss and it was my decision. If someone feels forced and resentful about caretaking, then they need to assert themselves and make changes. Either finding out the bad buttons being pushed and avoid this, get the sub the help he/she needs, or end it and seek another partner. quote: Interestingly, 'sub drop' only seems to affect women (I'm totally willing to be wrong about that, but I've never heard male submissives talking about it) and only submissives (although seemingly brought on by s&m play scenes, it seems to be submissives rather than masochists who suffer from it). Most of the ones I know who went through sub drop were female subs, mostly newbies, in long distance romances where their Dom could only visit every few weeks, had histories of past abuse and were with a dominant who could not handle it and didn't know how to keep the girl anchored by exerting a little pressure on that leash. I have had to step in several times when normal women start acting manic depressive and feeling suicidal. Too many newbies are asked to jump off a metaphoric bridge and then the guy forgets to catch them. One of mine, a newbie, had subdrop that had him sitting in his car crying for no reason. It was the day after an intense emotional power exchange (no sadomasochism) and he knew to contact me whenever he wanted to, but he tried to wait until he got home from work, and online. When he couldn't get out of his car but just sat there crying, he phoned me and I talked him through it. My caretaking bonded us closer together. I had prepared him for this emotional backlash but...because he was a man, he thought that it would never happen to him. That I was exaggerating. [;)] Anyway, with others, daily contact helped prevent either of us from dropping. Yes, I drop as well some hours after my buzz wears off if I do not get daily contact of some sort, and if the relationship is in the beginning stages and I have made a connection with the man but start feeling that getting involved further will not be a good idea. If I start getting a buzz, and then a buzz kill comes up, POW! I drop like a rock and am prepared for the pendulum swing of hunger/frenzy and drop. Hot chocolate helps me through it, while I am trying to straighten things out...and if too many red flags come up then I back off until I cool down. When the relationship is based on emotional/mental D/s, I have to watch over both of us to prevent drop. It is not a big thing, daily contact usually handles it. I was very surprised to learn that I had no drop, when something snafud and I "should have" had top drop, over something that was a sadistic high instead of a D/s connection. quote: So what do you think? Am I being unfair? Or is sub-drop getting way out of hand as a BDSM phenomenon? Has sub-drop grown during your time on the scene? (I would love to hear from anyone who was doing BDSM prior to the late 90s, and whether sub-drop existed before then and if so, in what form?) Does sub drop really exist or is it just some sort of retribution from submissives who feel that their Dom owes them a self-indulgent duvet day? If someone had to use this with me to force my hand with caretaking I didn't want to do, or if their needs seemed excessive, I would have to take a good look at the relationship as a whole. Either the person had issues that turned them into a "black hole" and as their dominant it was my duty to see that they got the counseling they needed, or...I would see that I was pushing them too hard. Other than that, I can only think of manipulation, and I would have to wonder why. Are they submitting to pay for all the caretaking/nurturing/anchoring they need from somebody, and/or is allowing them to submit and be used counterproductive to their healing. quote: As a Dom, do you accept or tire of sub-drop? With male subs, I have not had more put into my lap than I expected. Any caretaking...made my attachment to them deepen. With friends who are subs and are either dating to find the right person to match up with, and some who are in new (and failing) relationships...yes and no. I accept dealing with their drop; it is my choice, not something anyone could force on me. Tiring, yes, sometimes I feel totally wrung out but this doesn't happen often. The last time was probably a year ago...two people can be very good, but mixed together...very bad for each other. By the middle/end of their relationship I was getting very fed up with cleaning up his mess. Good thing they broke up, she went back to a dominant vanilla ex who still loves her, and her Master...ah...he is an owned slave now and is loving it. You can see why their relationship could not work out. The girl is a r/t friend of mine. quote: If sub drop does exist, is it worth it to play when it will cause this reaction? Is it similar to the male submissive who orgasms, and then wants to disassociate entirely from the BDSM activities they engaged in whilst they were horny? Do I ditch the lifestyle just because I get top drop sometimes, or because my bottom or sub might have subdrop? No. I can deal with the reactions. As for the last question, I cannot answer that. I am an attention whore during a scene, and will not allow him to lose interest in what I am doing by letting him have an orgasm. They arrive horney, they leave even hornier and that's what puts the sparkle in my eyes, that helpless, hopeless hardon. Someday when I find someone to be in love with, as well as having a D/s relationship, I will cross that post-orgasm bridge when I come to it. I don't see why the D/s has to be turned on and off like a light switch, but then...with me, there is a difference between emotional/mental D/s and kinky activities. The kink and sadism can be turned on and off, but the D/s attachment is part of the foundation of the relationship. Since your questions on subdrop go hand in hand with the aftercare question, it reminds me of an excellent thread I read last month. I had never considered not cleaning up after myself, but I can see a valid reason to choose not to. I doubt the link will be clickable, I suck at that, but a copy and paste will take you there if you missed reading it. http://www.collarchat.com/m_3683139/tm.htm It is SimplyMichael's thread "Interesting take on aftercare".

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 1:22:00 PM)
I think if your scene is abruptly cut short, you can start experiencing drop because you WERE experiencing the neurochemicals and now you're not. i also think you might be prone to exaggerated feelings, like sexisubi was mentioning (crying, etc). but i still think a lot of people misuse subdrop as a term for all sorts of other things. for me, it's specifically the stuff that happens while i'm coming off the high from whatever was happening. i think if you're really sensitive to that kind of stuff, it could possibly affect your judgment, kinda like PMS. but bad judgment is bad judgment, subdrop or not. =p the bad judgment isn't, in and of itself, part of subdrop, but a possible product of it. some people also use subdrop as a manipulation tactic -- "i'm dropping and you're supposed to take care of me, so you'd better sit here with me all night and don't chat with anyone else!"

sexisubi -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 1:27:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Sub Drop is a specific term for something that follows "sub space" but I can understand your confusion of terms. However, in your case, being in a good place and then being abruptly yanked into something dark via pain that wasn't negotiated must be quite unpleasant. and subspace you would consider a high right something that feels incredible, something that makes you feel unexplainable, so when i say i get a high i am talking about "sub space," the intense pleasure. so a drop would be when you take your high to nil... which is what i explained =) and not intense pain, i didn't feel any pain at all, that was an assumption. =)

angelikaJ -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 5:33:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexisubi quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Sub Drop is a specific term for something that follows "sub space" but I can understand your confusion of terms. However, in your case, being in a good place and then being abruptly yanked into something dark via pain that wasn't negotiated must be quite unpleasant. and subspace you would consider a high right something that feels incredible, something that makes you feel unexplainable, so when i say i get a high i am talking about "sub space," the intense pleasure. so a drop would be when you take your high to nil... which is what i explained =) and not intense pain, i didn't feel any pain at all, that was an assumption. =) You are correct; it was. I misinterpreted something you said: " from a high wow i went to ow...". I took "ow" literally.

NuevaVida -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 9:39:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep I think if your scene is abruptly cut short, you can start experiencing drop because you WERE experiencing the neurochemicals and now you're not. This happened to me quite a bit, in the past. I would be in the midst of being emotionally pushed to extremes and then - boom - done. Over. Pull yourself together now. At times it was so overwhelming it would leave me in near hysterics, because I didn't know where I was - physically, mentally or emotionally - and then the carpet was pulled out and I'd plummet. quote: but i still think a lot of people misuse subdrop as a term for all sorts of other things. for me, it's specifically the stuff that happens while i'm coming off the high from whatever was happening. i think if you're really sensitive to that kind of stuff, it could possibly affect your judgment, kinda like PMS. but bad judgment is bad judgment, subdrop or not. =p the bad judgment isn't, in and of itself, part of subdrop, but a possible product of it. Just wanted to add here, that it's not just "highs" that can create this thing we call subdrop. My ex owner was a sadistic man - emotionally sadistic as well as physically. There were many times when I didn't feel "high" at all; rather, it felt like a struggle to maintain my sanity while he was doing what he was doing. There was nothing high about it - it was, at times, excruciating. That's when I'd really experience dropping, because he would leave me to deal with putting myself back together and I didn't always do a very good job of it. Over time, I learned to handle it a lot better, but I'd still fall quite hard. I learned a lot about myself from those times, but they were very hard lessons.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/15/2011 10:42:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OwnedFemaleFlesh Does 'sub drop' actually exist? Personally, every time I've listened to someone describe what they've labeled as "sub drop", i found it nothing more than simply MISSING someone they care for. (shrugs)

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/16/2011 6:16:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida Just wanted to add here, that it's not just "highs" that can create this thing we call subdrop. My ex owner was a sadistic man - emotionally sadistic as well as physically. There were many times when I didn't feel "high" at all; rather, it felt like a struggle to maintain my sanity while he was doing what he was doing. There was nothing high about it - it was, at times, excruciating. That's when I'd really experience dropping, because he would leave me to deal with putting myself back together and I didn't always do a very good job of it. Over time, I learned to handle it a lot better, but I'd still fall quite hard. I learned a lot about myself from those times, but they were very hard lessons. i don't mean "high" as in something high and joyous, just the endorphin or chemical high. things that have been heinously painful and non-enjoyable have put me there. i agree, though, in those situations, sometimes you feel the drop in a more pronounced way because of how much work it takes just to get to the end, and then at the end, there's nothing.

aromanholiday -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/16/2011 6:39:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep the "grown adults" point is so important. a lot of people use things like this to justify really bad behavior. using it as a mask for being passive aggressive or bitchy, etc. i don't think that's right, and i think maybe a lot of that is what contributes to people thinking that subdrop isn't real? what was often most helpful for me in my last relationship were the "after action reports" =p he'd give me time to think about what we did and how i felt and such, and then we'd have a conversation about it. he really liked to talk about feelings and such, so it helped to get a lot of it out. when i've played casually as a single person, if i can't talk to the person i played with (thankfully with my Top friend, that's usually not an issue) then i get a blankie and watch cartoons and take a warm shower. "the "grown adults" point is so important. a lot of people use things like this to justify really bad behavior. using it as a mask for being passive aggressive or bitchy, etc. i don't think that's right, and i think maybe a lot of that is what contributes to people thinking that subdrop isn't real?" Yeah, that could be, on the dominant end of things, especially. On the submissive end of things it might be like any malady: if you haven't directly experienced it, you don't understand it. If something like this does exist (yes, I'm one of those that has never experienced it) three causes come to mind: some sort of physical reaction that, for various reasons, not everyone experiences and perhaps expectations or context. In terms of context, playing with strangers, however nice they were, would be very hard for me to do so I don't do it. If I did, however, I think I might very well feel bad afterward (feel alienated/anxious/sad/untrue to myself/wondering what the hell I was doing) but I would not feel it was my play partner's responsibility to bring me out of that mood. In fact, I might want to stay in it to try to learn something from the experience. As for the expectations part, if you're with someone who doesn't believe in subdrop and doesn't expect/want you to sub drop, and you admire/like them enough, you work hard, I imagine, not to feel it. Not to deny it if it's there, but not to feel it in the first place. There's an awful lot of evidence out there that indicates a person's intentions and expectations also control/alter some chemical reactions in the brain. I like the fact that you self-aftercare if for some reason what you like to receive from others isn't there. It seems very much like the "grown up" thing to do. "what was often most helpful for me in my last relationship were the "after action reports" =p he'd give me time to think about what we did and how i felt and such, and then we'd have a conversation about it. " That's an interesting idea. I haven't heard that expressed in aftercare discussions before. Talk as aftercare. It is very effective, I bet. :) I got a lot of this type of thing from my former Master. He also loved to talk and for me to talk about emotions and ideas, and any time I wanted to say something, I was encouraged to do so. I feel no need for this now, but I've changed a great deal since then.

darchChylde -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/16/2011 9:22:16 AM)
I tend to get to where I feel all vulnerable and with an aching for physical affection. That's affection, not sex; though that can also fit the bill if done at the right time with the right kind of feelings behind it. But really I just need cuddling and a little pampering. Most often it's right after a particularly intense scene and is remedied about as quickly. Other times it can last a couple of days, especially if situations prevent a couple of hours of quality time. If I actually hit subspace, on the other hand I can come down real hard. There is something akin to the effects of LSD and even minor flashbacks. I may get quietly paranoid and jumpy, even to the point of turning this touch-slut into a touch-me-not. I'll often get easily distracted by shinies and other colorful and pretty things. True story: The night after Ma'am first accdentally sent me to space just scratching my neck and scalp, and absentmindedly playing with my hair. Sort of like a puppy, you just pet it cause it's there, but you don't necessarily pay any attention to what you're doing. Well, She's doing this and talking with Her friends and I suddenly drop into space. Later that night I went on to get lost in the DVD player's screensaver on the television. That particular effect, just getting lost in a moment for minutes at a time can go on for a couple of days, but never inhibited the living of my life. Just a occasional distraction. That's my experience, for what it's worth.

kdsub -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/16/2011 11:13:03 AM)
Maybe it is just guilt that comes back after the rush of indulgence…Perhaps I am wrong but I think a portion of submissives are physically punishing themselves for psychological personal grievances. Otherwise their participation in a scene and their reaction to it is a symptom of mental illness. Butch

sexisubi -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/16/2011 11:16:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ You are correct; it was. I misinterpreted something you said: " from a high wow i went to ow...". I took "ow" literally. HAHA, yeah i guess that was the bad analogy i didn't mean physically :) going going over how emotions can be stronger when I am way up here and then way down here. it can have a real pooper on mood.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/16/2011 11:19:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Maybe it is just guilt that comes back after the rush of indulgence…Perhaps I am wrong but I think a portion of submissives are physically punishing themselves for psychological personal grievances. Otherwise their participation in a scene and their reaction to it is a symptom of mental illness. Butch i dunno if i agree with that. certain people sometimes use cathartic scenes to get over some personal issue, but you could just as easily say that Doms/Tops are using scenes as a way to get away with beating up women. =p frankly, a chemical overload tends to have a "coming down;" that's really all subdrop usually is.

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