RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke

RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (Full Version)

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HeatherMcLeather -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 5:53:04 PM)
quote: Well batted. I honestly wouldn't have had the cheek to post that, had I opened a thread in the way this one was. Well, I didn't open the thread, so that's sort of off the mark. You complained that Hanners didn't answer any questions. I just offered to get your questions answered in a timely manner. I really don't recall anybody actually asking a question of her. There was a lot of other people asking questions of eachother, and a lot of people saying she is wrong, and some saying she was right. But I don't recall a question directed to her. Tell you what, I'll go back through the thread, I'll collect all the questions directed to Hanners, and I'll ask her to answer them between periods. OK?

juliaoceania -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 6:13:28 PM)
I read the OP... not many more responses I suppose if I had been in Hannah's shoes I would have the same opinion of men. I do not fault her for her opinions. I just think that when you rely on a fucked up sample and judge all the individuals of a group by it, you would get a skewed perception. I am sure a large number of men have went to prostitutes, and those men are arsehole, but that does not mean all men are arseholes because most of them that go to prostitutes are. The men I involve myself with are men that talk about things like subjugation of women, they are men that know about how women end up as prostitutes. They see prostitutes as victims before they ever sell their body. Most importantly I only involve myself with men that see prostitutes as people with as much value as they have. If a man utters anything different in the dating stages, I dump em. I have no patience for knuckledragging or hypocrisy. I have little tolerance for people who judge others based on sexuality. So, do I know for a fact that the men I have involved myself with "aren't like that", no. But I am willing to lay odds that the ones that are wouldn't be attracted to me because I have little patience with sophomoric arseholes.... and they have even less patience with me. As far as my son. I would hope he learned all women are people, even the ones that have had a street life. He tends to be pretty vocal on feminist issues, probably more so than me. He is a very gentle person.... he gets very upset when people talk about women of any stripe in a dehumanizing way... even prostitutes. I am very proud of him I also slightly resent a human being like him being lumped in with a bunch of low life abusers...

Kaliko -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 6:30:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: Well batted. I honestly wouldn't have had the cheek to post that, had I opened a thread in the way this one was. Well, I didn't open the thread, so that's sort of off the mark. You complained that Hanners didn't answer any questions. I just offered to get your questions answered in a timely manner. I really don't recall anybody actually asking a question of her. There was a lot of other people asking questions of eachother, and a lot of people saying she is wrong, and some saying she was right. But I don't recall a question directed to her. Tell you what, I'll go back through the thread, I'll collect all the questions directed to Hanners, and I'll ask her to answer them between periods. OK? Actually, since you mention it, I asked a question. My question was "You seem to hate the way that men viewed you based on the fact that you were a prostitute. How is it okay, though, that you can view men a certain way based on the fact that they are men? Isn't that kind of the same thing?" Oh...and it would be super awesome if she could post a response without calling me a fuckstick moron or the like.

kalikshama -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 6:36:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Didn't the op say, "i have developed these powerful prejudices because of a ton of shitty real life experiences, but the quality of the men on this message board is completely shocking me"? Those aren't the words of someone static. They are the words of someone in intellectual and emotional motion. Nice summary. I agree.

PeonForHer -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 6:37:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Your mistake is that I do understand where you, Aynne and other ARE coming from. La T, I think it's clear where they're coming from. Their experiences of the world and of the menfolk in that world don't mesh with your own, and that of others. They can't read the OP and see the majority of men in that OP. It's useless to talk of their being in 'denial of the truth', because their truth is different. So is mine, actually. I can't see any of the men in my milieu in the OP. I've heard of such men, read about them . . . but, no doubt like most people on this thread, I'm going on experience and personal knowledge, before what I've read and heard. That's partly because the more universal 'evidence' from each corner, as it's been presented, is too riddled with holes to be able to give us anything useful about men in general. I think that there are basically two different strategies, with their respective aims, that this thread has taken - and they haven't work well together. If the OP wanted to reveal her feelings about men, about how much nastiness, dismalness and horror she's been through as a result of her personal experience of men; if she wanted to air all this to help herself and help others by sharing such feelings . . . then she did a good job. Clearly, it's resonated with some people. No doubt it's been at least a bit therapeutic. I'd hope so. Sometimes people need to whack their enemies in the gob before they can start to be reasonable with them. C'est la vie. As the 'enemy' in question, and with a certain mixture of experience, knowledge, sympathy and humour, a lot of us men can handle such whacks. In any case, I've a feeling that men feel that we just must take a few punches from women because of some vague sense of justice that says, 'Men get to use more power, so women get to complain more'. But if the OP was presenting an argument about men overall, asserting anything approaching general truths about us - then she did a bad job. That wasn't a measured OP. Really, I don't think anyone here could seriously argue that it was. It wasn't balanced. It also had the appearance of an argument that was meant to 'win by emotive force', not by reason and not by facts about men in general. That's only going to work for everyone if everyone shares the same emotions. Obviously, they don't, here. I say 'if' re both those two strategies and aims, because I don't actually know what the OP wanted to achieve. Whatever: I do think we need to come to some mutual agreement about this, at least. What is the aim of this thread and how are we going to get there?

kalikshama -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 6:57:17 PM)
quote: I say 'if' re both those two strategies and aims, because I don't actually know what the OP wanted to achieve. Whatever: I do think we need to come to some mutual agreement about this, at least. What is the aim of this thread and how are we going to get there? She wanted to dispel the misunderstanding that she is a man hating lesbian, which she does in her OP. She's bisexual and: quote: i give every man the chance to prove himself, they all start with a clean slate.

OttersSwim -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:01:03 PM)
Hello Heather, Well, now that you mention questions...I have a couple! [;)] So I have to believe that extreme distrust of what is approximately half of the total of the people you all encounter in your lives has got to be exhausting (especially for Hannah) and a big heavy weight in both of your emotional backpacks. You mentioned that joining CM was a way that you all were trying to heal. I wonder what if anything else you both are doing or have thought about to try to work through this and come to perhaps a more balanced and healthy view* of the males in your lives? Are you both away from the sorts of environments where the males that might exploit females tend to be more concentrated, or are you still in them? I do believe that there are environments that one is much more likely to encounter such people. What else are you actively doing to surround yourselves with the sorts of people who fall into that percentage of males that you deem are trustworthy and safe? Is Hannah seeking any counseling for the trauma she has experienced? Bad things happen to good people. It is my firm belief that we may not always be able to control what happens to us, but we have total control over what we do about it - how we react to it, how we choose to see it and move on from it. As an example, I direct your attention to this picture. On January 8th, this woman, Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head. Last week she released this picture. It in no way lessens the tragedy, the trauma, the horror of what she experienced, but it gives a rock solid picture of how she is choosing to react to it. While she may have been victimized, she is no victim... *healthy view - yea, my own personal bias here. I don't believe this can be a very healthy way to view the world. I include Heather in this because by living together, you are in each other's orbits and so this is clearly affecting you as well. YMMV... Peace...

Kaliko -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:05:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: I say 'if' re both those two strategies and aims, because I don't actually know what the OP wanted to achieve. Whatever: I do think we need to come to some mutual agreement about this, at least. What is the aim of this thread and how are we going to get there? She wanted to dispel the misunderstanding that she is a man hating lesbian, which she does in her OP. She's bisexual and: quote: i give every man the chance to prove himself, they all start with a clean slate. I question this, though. If someone starts out with a clean slate, why is there a need to prove himself?

PeonForHer -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:07:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama She wanted to dispel the misunderstanding that she is a man hating lesbian Recalling, "now this isn't because i hate men, i don't. i just have great disdain for, and a really shitty opinion of the vast majority of them." - She didn't seem all that wholeheartedly to want to dispel that misunderstanding.

dcnovice -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:08:20 PM)
quote: If someone starts out with a clean slate, why is there a need to prove himself? I was wondering about that. I also wondered what the reaction would be if I said that I gave every woman I met the chance to "prove" herself.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:13:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice I also wondered what the reaction would be if I said that I gave every woman I met the chance to "prove" herself. it would NOT go over well. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer It also had the appearance of an argument that was meant to 'win by emotive force', not by reason and not by facts about men in general. That's only going to work for everyone if everyone shares the same emotions. Obviously, they don't, here. I say 'if' re both those two strategies and aims, because I don't actually know what the OP wanted to achieve. Whatever: I do think we need to come to some mutual agreement about this, at least. What is the aim of this thread and how are we going to get there? i have to agree with Peon here; it's like we're meant to accept what comes across as very hateful, just because it comes from bad experiences, and there's a lot of emotion there. and i think that's wrong. i honestly think Hannah's aim was to somehow show that she isn't what people think she is (whether or not she did a good job of that is immaterial). but i think the thread transformed because people put their own negativity on Hannah's post and made it about their opinions; like her post was proof of everything negative they've ever believed, and was, thus, Gospel Truth. it's a VERSION of truth, but not THE truth. reality is completely and utterly subjective.

PeonForHer -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:17:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kaliko I question this, though. If someone starts out with a clean slate, why is there a need to prove himself? I guess, in fairness, that could be seen neutrally. As in 'show' as a substitute for 'prove'. On the other hand, if I were to come across a potential partner who took that stronger sense of 'prove' . . . then she would need to prove herself to me. I can't spend my time with a woman in whose eyes I'm constantly in fear of 'falling from grace'. I'm such a sweet guy, then, suddenly, I'm a monster like all the rest - except worse, because I did such a convincing 'sweet guy' act in the first place. Nah. Been there, done it. Not going back again.

LaTigresse -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:32:52 PM)
And I looked at it through my own filter. Everyone I meet proves themself in one way or another. They either prove they are someone I want to be around or they prove that I don't want to spend any time with them. Or they occasionally prove that I don't want them anywhere near my world. Obviously, based upon my own life experiences many people come with our some sort of preconceived notion of who they are and what they are about. Not saying that is a good thing, but it's there and we all, to some degree, have it. Most of us make an attempt to over ride that and approach from a more neutral state. How successful we are at that will depend on several things. How much we want to, the strength of our desire to over ride and the strength of our pre conceptions. Not to mention our own self assurance in who we are.

PeonForHer -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:36:18 PM)
Agreed, to all.

dcnovice -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:42:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice I also wondered what the reaction would be if I said that I gave every woman I met the chance to "prove" herself. it would NOT go over well. That was my guess.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:48:07 PM)
quote: Enjoy the game, you horny lesbos. yea right! 3 to fucking 0 for boston. luongo sucks. sucks, sucks, sucks. why the fuck they put him in instead of schneider who can actually stop a fucking puck i'll never know. heather has gone through the whole thread (or what remains of it) and found 4 questions that were directed to me that i didn't answer. here are the answers angelikaj quote: If you did begin to have choice at some point and stayed, why was that? i saw this one and had intended to answer it, but i guess i forgot to when replying to something else. sorry. - i only really was offered one chance to get out and i took it. i started out because i couldn't get a job (its fucking hard to do when you have no address or phone). i needed food. begging and panhandling usually ended up with some fucker wanting a blowjob for his measly dollar, so i figured, fuck it, if i'm going to be using sex to survive, i might as well turn pro and make some decent money (unsound reasoning). once i started i started using coke, mostly as an antidote to the life. i got hooked, and then i had to keep on in order to get enough money for food and coke. when i reached the point where i was sure that i would die or kill myself, i mentioned it to a couple of drunks i had befriended. they decided to make me their project, to got me clean and off the street. with their help i did both. so when i was offered a chance, i took it. ysg quote: Hannah... have you ever thought that maybe the reason youve met so many shitbags was the situations you were in? i didn't directly answer this because i thought it was rhetorical. but since it was asked i'll answer. - no shit, many times. my problem is that since then so fucking few men have managed to be different. the vast majority continue to exhibit the same fucking attitudes. angelikaj quote: What I have tried to explain throughout the thread is that by nature, Heather, the men you interacted with were scum... but what did you expect? Richard Gere? i figured this was rhetorical as well. - no, i didn't expect richard fucking gere, my experiences as a homeless person had already shown me that most of the men i encountered were scum. i'm not talking about my clients, but the people out on the streets in broad fucking daylight when i was panhandling. kaliko quote: You seem to hate the way that men viewed you based on the fact that you were a prostitute. How is it okay, though, that you can view men a certain way based on the fact that they are men? Isn't that kind of the same thing? i didn't answer your question because the fact that you asked it showed that you hadn't read what i had already posted. you are asking me if doing something i do not do is different than what they did. i do not do what you are asking about, so i didn't answer. it's fucking tiresome to say the same thing one has already said, and have it ignored or overlooked by so many. it's in the op for fuck's sake. i thought i had covered this in my long post about the men on cm, but apparently not. fuck a duck. but since i am answering all questions, and the game is a fucking disaster, i'll answer you anyway, i'm pretty fucking sure i'll have to explain it again if this thread carries on as well. - i do not view men in any way based on the fact that they are men. i take each man at face value, they get to prove themselves by their words and actions. it's not my fault that almost all of them subsequently prove themselves to be fuckstick morons (i didn't call you that). quote: together with your inability to answer even the simplest of questions, actually advances your (and I'm being hugely generous here) "debate" even slightly? there, i've answered every fucking question asked of me. 1 i missed, 2 rhetorical ones, and one that had no relevance to anything i said. i do find it sort of odd that you would be bitching and moaning about me not answering questions when you didn't ask me any, in fact i don't recall you asking any questions of anybody. you're contribution to this thread has been to snark and pose as a genius, and to insult other posters, trade off topic quips, and to utterly misread what i posted. this does not surprise me in the least, and forms a big part of my assessment of you, the fact that you complained about me not answering questions and then replied with insulting condescension when heather offered to have me answer any questions you might have only further confirms my assessment. you clearly don't give a fuck what i said, you didn't try to understand the purpose of the thread, you dismissed it. as is usual for men like you, you saw it as yet another opportunity to make yourself look good, to inflate and polish your own ego. that's fine, i ignored your posts for the most part because they were of no relevance to the topic. you want to argue the validity of the fucking statistics, go ahead, just not with me. i didn't bring them up, i didn't comment on them, i don't give a flying fuck about them. they have nothing to do with the topic, so i ignored them.

LadyPact -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:49:27 PM)
Pretty much a fast reply after skimming. There are too many numbers being thrown around about how many people see prostitutes, how many women are prostitutes, how frequently those business transactions happen, cheating, and all kinds of other stuff. It seems to Me that if you spend a few years being exposed to the bottom rung of society, that's probably enough to condition you to think that all people are that way. The folks who screwed the OP while she was hooking weren't seeing her as a person. She was just another piece of ass they were paying for. The person connected to it didn't mean shit. That shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. Take the business transaction out of the equation and it's no different than some chick who comes to the forums after screwing somebody during a one night stand who can't seem to get it in their head that the guy who did her didn't give a damn about her. If we were talking about folks immersed in drug trafficing, gang bangers, thieves, or any other segment that brings out the worst in society, nobody would bat an eye at saying that the bottom of society who aren't strong on the morals and ethics part of the human race are depraved people. It's just plain psychological conditioning when that's all you're exposed to. What kind of impression do people think the folks being released from prison have about the human race? Spend an extended time surrounded by scum and you think everybody is scum. I noticed Hannah said that she's using these boards as her own kind of realization that the numbers aren't what she was exposed to during those years. Honestly, the approach kind of sucks. I know folks generally don't care for analyzing others over the net, but I see a lot of anger issues from the years of use and abuse, and I'm not so sure that's going to be resolved by shouting "fuck" at any poster that isn't supporting the argument. It comes across almost as an attitude of 'been treated like shit by everybody else, so that give license to treat others like shit in return' and call it therapeutic. If you beat a dog for years and it finally turns and attacks every human that walks by, that's not "healing" the dog. Hannah, I honestly don't care what you think of Me. I still think you need to take a step back and consider that you do have hatred for most, if not all of those males who helped to form your opinions. You might just be projecting that on to other people at times. For what it's worth, I do hope some of Heather's positive attributes rub off on you. I'm sure that to her, you are a fabulous person. She obviously cares for you a great deal. At the same time, some of the ways that you see the world could have a negative impact on that. If you bring the cesspool with you, there is a risk of you contaminating the part that's really good in your life.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 7:57:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather i like fucking men, a lot. i just don't want to deal with them afterwards. i prefer to do what i call the fuck n fuck: fuck me then fuck off. I guess this is focusing on one thing, out of context, but I am fucking allowed to do it if I fucking want to. The above quote is what bothers me more than anything else. If you can fucking hate men because they fucked you, then told you to fuck off, how is it that you fucking think it makes you an enlightened fucking "not a man hater" when you state you do the same thing now, and damn well fucking enjoy it? I am really trying to understand this. No hidden agenda, no trying to justify my beliefs regarding the men in my life, no lack of confidence in who I am. I added all the "fucking" in to the question just because it seems to be all the rage these days. I am wanting to know how you can do, quite joyfully, the same thing you say caused you to see men in such a bad light, and be totally ok with in, when you look in the mirror. Personally, I would be hating the person I saw in the mirror.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 8:00:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I know folks generally don't care for analyzing others over the net, but I see a lot of anger issues from the years of use and abuse, and I'm not so sure that's going to be resolved by shouting "fuck" at any poster that isn't supporting the argument. It comes across almost as an attitude of 'been treated like shit by everybody else, so that give license to treat others like shit in return' and call it therapeutic. If you beat a dog for years and it finally turns and attacks every human that walks by, that's not "healing" the dog. Hannah, I honestly don't care what you think of Me. I still think you need to take a step back and consider that you do have hatred for most, if not all of those males who helped to form your opinions. You might just be projecting that on to other people at times. For what it's worth, I do hope some of Heather's positive attributes rub off on you. I'm sure that to her, you are a fabulous person. She obviously cares for you a great deal. At the same time, some of the ways that you see the world could have a negative impact on that. If you bring the cesspool with you, there is a risk of you contaminating the part that's really good in your life. agreed 100%

RedMagic1 -> RE: guys suck, but i'm not a man-hating dyke (6/15/2011 8:08:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact For what it's worth, I do hope some of Heather's positive attributes rub off on you. I'm sure that to her, you are a fabulous person. She obviously cares for you a great deal. At the same time, some of the ways that you see the world could have a negative impact on that. If you bring the cesspool with you, there is a risk of you contaminating the part that's really good in your life. To whatever extent you allow this to poison your relationship, the johns win. I think Otterswim's post is excellent also, though I won't quote from it.

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