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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/19/2011 1:31:57 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Keep yer dangly bits in yer tighty whiteys...


I go commando...


Well, then thats too bad, I only like nekked bits when I am gonna do something with it...

Sorta funny tho, you think pole and lap dancing is too in your face, that is sorta how I view dangly bits.

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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/19/2011 2:28:23 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

Sorta funny tho, you think pole and lap dancing is too in your face, that is sorta how I view dangly bits.

Nobody is knocking your view..I just asked you questions and peppered the situation with humor..I'd be the last person dangling my bits in someones face but I can joke about it.


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/19/2011 2:57:07 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Sorta funny tho, you think pole and lap dancing is too in your face, that is sorta how I view dangly bits.

Nobody is knocking your view..I just asked you questions and peppered the situation with humor..I'd be the last person dangling my bits in someones face but I can joke about it.


Yes, I know that. Just the thought of dangly bits hanging around.... oh gawd... now I got this weird pic in my mind of outdoor string lights made to look like dangly bits.. hahaha

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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/19/2011 9:19:56 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:


Aneirin -- are you really required to perform if you're no longer a beginner? i'm sure if you talked with your teacher she would let you know that you didn't have to perform, but if i'm wrong, and she DOES require them... well that's a little frustrating to someone who just wants to learn but not perform. have you tried videos? i'm at a point where i'm having a difficult time challenging myself, and videos give me a chance to study technique that would cost tons in workshops that aren't economically sound at the moment, but also gives me a challenge.


No, not really, I am not required to perform, and I actually want to, as it is important to me, but I am not mentally ready for it and that as I am the only male dancer in our mob, and kind of set myself high standards to attain. The teacher says I am ready, but I don't agree, so now I just attend the performances and do the photo and video work and sometimes making the costume jewellery, myself being a metalsmith and photograher, well with bellydance, many interests merge. Each time the mob performs I wish I was there with them, as quite often I know the choreos, but like I said, not mentally ready yet.

But as the videos I linked show an awful lot of tribal fusion, I guess my interests do lie there, so with a friend from here, well, I took a friend from here; .dark.  and another of her friends to a Fat Chance ATS class, my first tribal and their first bellydance and I did enjoy it, it holds much use to me, but back in my locale ATS is spread far and wide and am unable to get the the classes due to transport issues.

Videos, I have tried a few, but find them difficult to learn from and think my learning style is drills, repetitition, over and over again so the body learns the movement. But I did learn snake arms from Miss Brice's tutorial on Youtube.


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/19/2011 9:29:37 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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what might help you "get there" mentally could be doing some small performances for a small group of friends. does your studio host haflas? those are great ways to get performance experience but in a really casual setting, mostly made up of other dancers who aren't going to really judge you like an audience will.
even if your studio doesn't host them, perhaps you could if you have space where you live, even with just the friends you took to the FCBD classes, and get together and dance for each other. it really helps.

and honestly, you may never get over the stage fright. i've been performing for years now, and if i don't feel like i'm going to puke before i go on stage, i actually don't dance as well. =p

drilling is a great way to learn; i'm always trying to add to the drills i do to vary up practice and focus on new skills. not all videos are so good for drilling because they move along too fast and expect that you'll work with the stuff when the video is over. but a great video i HAVE to recommend is Modern Tribal Bellydance by Asharah -- it is one heck of a drilling video, and the "warm up" is a work out in and of itself.


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/19/2011 9:39:29 PM   
Aneirin


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As to dangly bits as one who dances, is keep the things under control  i.e. wear suitable under garments, as the emphasis should be on the dance movement, not what is swinging between the legs. There is time and places for everything, and as it is in the UK male belly dancers have a rough time as it is with acceptance within the UK dance community, even one well known  UK dance festival will not allow male bellydancers to perform, but that says more about the promoter who is known to be a bit on the sleazy side and that from those, some of whom I know that have experienced his lascivious attentions.

Although belly dance can be considered a sexy dance, many western belly dancers want to get away from the image of hoochie koochie as it tends to create the wrong impression with some viewers of this dance form and that impacts on the dancers whether they want that kind of attention or not.


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/19/2011 10:05:02 PM   
Aneirin


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Yes, we do do haflas from time to time, and maybe the next one I might dance, or drum, but am even scared of making a noise, although I can sort of play a doumbeck, I have my own and rattle on it when I am drunk enough not to care when I am at home, but doing something in public unaided I am not there yet. Although I have come a long way in the last few years, as actually attending a belly dance class was a challenge for me, and from it, I can well understand many of the problems women go through when it is they wish to be involved in areas which are predominantly male.

I will check out the video you mentioned, as it was tribal fusion that actually first drew me to this dance form and indeed dance itself.

But one of the reasons I do this dance, is for the fitness aspects, as let's face it, yoga is boring and I have done ashtanga, bog standard hatha and  iyengar, dance to me is exercise to music, and the nusic actually helps with the movement, especially middle eastern music with its complex timing changes

This one is for a good boogie now and again, although more western. Other times is music by Tarkan and Serdar Ortac


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/19/2011 10:12:17 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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this song is glorious! ^_^ thanks!
it has a really nice pace, so it would be a great practice song, too.

and yeah, the belly dance world can be a little hard for a man, at least over here. part of that is a lot of the goddess mythstory that has grown up around it. the origins of belly dance weren't painstakingly recorded by the people who created it, so there are all sorts of people putting their own spins and issues on it. but when you get into the history, or meet native people, male dancing really isn't THAT unusual.
it honestly might help you to start researching some more reputable history so you can combat the "this is for WOMEN!" stuff going on around you.
it can be tricky because some women feel uncomfortable with a man in class, or they think he's just there to "oggle them," but if they see you seriously practicing and dancing, they'll have to shut up. =p

and definitely check out Asharah -- she's fantabulous. ♥


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 5:50:38 AM   
Aneirin


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Glad the song can be of use, but stuff with Bill Laswell often seems to be good.

One thing a lot of women who buy into the goddess theory forget, is that males are also part of that theory, and myself being kind of pagan, I know the theory well, so can qualify myself into that theory if need be, but I do tend to keep clear of such theories as dance to me is about celebrating the joy of being simply a human being responding to anothers art through music, that music being a form of communication.

As to where belly dance came from, the big question that so far defies an answer, well, personal research along other lines, that of Islamic art seems to me to be pointing at what is now called the Turkish and in more recent history, the Ottoman Empire and it's influence through much of the Eurasian continent and before that, the Mamlukes, bearing in mind what according to the rules of Islam say a Muslim can and cannot do and especially that what was accepted in the past, I believe there is a link with the Dimi people and a modern remmenant of that is the Kochek, but before there were Jannisary and Mamluke and what they could and could not have as part of their status as slaves. One of the reported pleasures they could not have is women, so I guess they had to amuse themselves and there enter the male dancer who was also later found in Egypt when female dancers were banned another place of long time Ottoman rule. But if what was the origins of this dance are from the Dimi, which the Kocheks are but one surviving modern example, what about other Dimi people, bearing in mind what the Dimi were and where they were recruited from. It is curious that this dance, remenants of it and similarities also appear in other dances where Islamic rule was not so persistant if at all, the continent of Africa being one

Failing that, one just has to follow the drum, the doumbeck and it's variations, find the origin of that design, and one might find the origin of the dance itself and that because what does music inspire a person to do, even a non dancer. A friend who is also a dancer also works with profoundly autistic kids and I asked her to try a personal experiment and that involved playing belly dance music to them, as often they like any other human being were soothed by music,which she did and was surprised to see movement amongst some and that movement driven by the hips, the centre of the body with similarities to what has developed into belly dance, crude, but it was there, the music inspires the movement, so maybe the origins are with the music and where that came from via the instrumentation.

But as to males involvment in this dance, there is a learned investigator on the case, a chap who just happens to be a world reknowned professional dancer, whom I have met and talked with for long periods of time on this very subject, and he starting the search many years ago to  naturally validate his own involvement when Western male dancers were somewhat scarce, whilst he was the protege of Morocco, a lady who many consider as the grand mother of western belly dance, and she is lovely too and what a pair they make in performances, I do recommend if you can, see them in action, they are a perfect  dance complement to each other, a male and a female dancer belly dancing together,as it has perhaps always been before western tastes seperated the two.

What is bellydance ?
http://www.tariksultan.com/articles/whatisbellydance.html

Fertility ritiuals ?
http://www.tariksultan.com/articles/fertilityritual.html

Not just for women !
http://www.tariksultan.com/articles/itisntjustforwomen.html

His personal voyage in this dance, from the Bronx of the 80's to present day


And for confirmation, check out his Youtube videos

As to my problems, they are my own, as I struggle with acceptance in other areas of life already.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 6/20/2011 6:05:11 AM >


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 6:02:12 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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tarik! yep, he's pretty much who i had in mind with my earlier post. ^_^ and nice to see you have a great handle on history! i've only recently started getting into it, though i never bought into the goddessy stuff. frankly, i wouldn't look for too much history in the tribal world, for example, because a lot of the "for us, by us" mentality is coming from that direction at the moment.
earlier in the thread, i posted a video of Tito Seif and one of his female students dancing together, and said that it had the feeling of watching your mom and dad dance at home (here's the link again, if you want to check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvP1evlIqzo ) -- i think that's probably mostly where the dance came from. i've read lots of accounts of visits to Egypt and the men are just as likely to jump up and dance as the women are. of course, a lot of the rules of Islam make dancing together somewhat impossible now, and i think people try to apply some of that retroactively.
culturally we have different views of what a "feminine" or "masculine" dance is, but that's fairly standard when you're contrasting cultures. in africa, for instance, the most powerful male figure is often depicted seated, while other cultures depict him standing in state-generated images. and in the middle east, it's not uncommon for men to shave off their body hair, either, which is something we consider primarily "feminine."


re: dancing; this song is the perfect pace for shimmies i've been working on. =p i have a gap in my 'shimmy speed range' that i've been trying to remedy for quite a while.


< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 6/20/2011 6:03:19 AM >


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 6:43:06 AM   
Aneirin


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Being involved in this dance the past few years has prevented me from buying into the predominantly American fear of all things Islamic, as I am involved with the arts of the region, what the common folk do far apart from the war mongers and this involvement has caused me to research the people deeper and see the beauties that exist and have always existed. That is why I do not buy into the hate of Muslims often exhibited down there in the P&R forum, for I know there is more to the people of the region than hate. We do in fact owe a lot to the Muslim world, for it has given us many inventions that we use today, let alone our numeral system which Fibonacci adapted from Indo Arabian for us. I believe in this world of tensions between two worlds and their promoters, peace and understanding of each other can be gained as always through art.

As far as western tastes are concerned, the west has always it seems been a bit stuck up it's own ass, and sexually repressed and perhaps the progress in recent decades in this respect has moved too fast for some and the problem is that speed of change, for the Islamic world being an ancient world, even long before Islam plods at a slow pace, whereas we race along, so what differences we have, many even in our own countries cannot handle yet, but all we see is the popular face, which is often not the reality for all.

But why does it have to be about sexuality all the time, as it seems we are obsessed with it, isn't that an indicator of  repression itself, for we are only recently in historic terms, 1950's onward starting to discover and accept ourselves for what we are. And in what we are doing the wrongs we see in other countries, isn't that more about we are seeing what we were and feeling disgust rather than what they are.

Perhaps it is we are obsessed with sex, we have all bought into Sex sells, so we perhaps have cheapened ourselves to be no more than commodities that our society seems so keen on selling all the time, given our capitalist mentality.

Perhaps through the commodity of sex, we have lost much of what it means when males and females engage in art such as dance together, we male and female complement each other, in belly dance, women are more joint mobile whilst men are more muscular mobile, we complement each other, both different, but the same, perhaps in our discovery of our freedom of expression after so many years (centuries ?) of  societal oppression, men and women dancing together, all we see is by the flaunting of obvious exiting bits is a prelude to sex.

As human beings we have the ability to turn off that mentality, but with many, it seems have lost that or at least have forgotten that we are not animals and do not need to be shagging every time we come into close proximity with the opposite sex. In dance classes, I am always at the front and that through choice, so women if they feel uncomfortable can laugh at me wiggling my ass. One begginer tried it once, a woman threatened by my prescence, she complained and got told if she did not like it, leave, for this is a unisex dance in a unisex world and many males do have the ability to not think with their dicks. On a personal note, she was not my type anyway, bit of a stuck up munter who saw belly dance as female only and that I cannot accept in anyone dance or not, a closed mind, no matter what apparent attractivity they may or may not have.

But as to belly dance much of what I dance to, is Shabbi if from Egypt and Turkish Pop, a favourie being Tarkan, just watch his moves in this well tune ;

Kuzu Kuzu by Tarkan

As to when I may dance in public, well my current indicator is the dance shirt I am making, twelve thousand rings in so far.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 6/20/2011 6:51:33 AM >


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 6:48:39 AM   
GreedyTop


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~FR~

while I have seen bellydancing over the years, I dont think I have appreciated as much as I have since reading thru (at this point, 3 pages) this thread.  At this point, my favorite vid is Aziza's drum solo (she made me giggle with her coquettishness).  I will be returning to follow more, but I need a break at the moment  (damned cats).

Thanks Icarys and especially Lilly for sharing!!

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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 7:38:20 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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excellent post, Aneirin! i do often think that a lot of the problem with America is that we are very young as a country and a culture, and despite being "young" in the global sense, we have a ton of power and don't always know what to do with it, and of course, we're just as "self-centric" as any other group of people. we want to define the world in our terms, and we don't understand why others may not go along. i think in a lot of ways we're like a kid who finally got his drivers license, who now doesn't understand why some people choose to walk around instead of drive.
also yes, a lot of the more ancient cultures do kind of look at us with disdain for our sexual revolution, which happened pretty fast, at least compared to them. and we look at them as being too outmoded to have an opinion that matters. =p so conflict is fairly inevitable.
i think for many it's impossible to think about something without thinking about its potential market value. but that's not just limited to us -- in relation to belly dancers, for instance, if you go to establishments that are run by Arabic people or Greeks over here, they are also PRETTY motivated by sexiness. there's a restaurant here that i have so far avoided patronizing because of the way one of my troupemates was treated for not physically being the owner's "ideal." so the cheapness of it is definitely not limited to the West, but can actually be even more closely tied into cultural ideas in other places, based on what that culture views as the appropriate role of women, etc etc. the woman in question is a beautiful dancer, and one of our best, but the owner of the establishment saw her as nothing but a sex object, and that that was her primary function in the restaurant.

i think, especially with dance, that it CAN be about sexuality, but it can also be about other things -- and the point is that neither of those is bad.

but you can kinda see the attitude in the comments to that video of Tarkan -- some of the commenters assume that he must be gay because he has the audacity to dance and move his hips around. =p


@GreedyTop -- totally! that performance is from one of her DVDs and i wish the other one was on youtube somewhere. her flirty playfulness is one of the things i like most about Aziza. being technically skilled doesn't mean anything if you can't engage your audience, and there are very few who do it better than Aziza. ^_^


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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 7:53:32 AM   
GreedyTop


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one of the things I have taken from some of these vids is the sheer JOY!! the joy has nothing to do with sexuality (although there is definitely SENSUALITY involved)...  it seems (to me, anyway) to be more the joy of DANCE, of LIFE, of BEING

if that makes any sense?

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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 7:58:05 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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it does, absolutely. that's usually the most important part of it for the dancers themselves; you feel happy. even when doing an emotional or sad piece, you still feel the joy in being able to connect with others, and just in expressing yourself. =) i think the people who never thought they could hold a rhythm or dance are the ones who appreciate it the most. 

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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 8:09:02 AM   
GreedyTop


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hm... I should start taking classes then.. I suck at dancing ;)

Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say!

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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 12:29:03 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

one of the things I have taken from some of these vids is the sheer JOY!! the joy has nothing to do with sexuality (although there is definitely SENSUALITY involved)...  it seems (to me, anyway) to be more the joy of DANCE, of LIFE, of BEING

if that makes any sense?


BINGO !!!

It makes perfect sense, you got it in one.

So whatever your taste in music or dance, just go out and dance and celebrate the joy of  being a human being.

As to not being able to dance, and this is coming from myself as an ardent non dancer for the best part of forty years, if I can dance, anyone can, so if it interests you, just go out and do it.

If it bothers you that you might feel a fool, don't worry, for you won''t be the first nor the last and you will also find most of the dancer community rather helpful instead of disdainful, for everyone has one thing in common, they all started somewhere.

But of anyone, if it all appeals, dancing in any form, then do it and celebrate being alive.




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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Sexxxaaaay - 6/20/2011 12:32:18 PM   
GreedyTop


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thanks, A!! 

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