RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post

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DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 9:25:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I've watched "Jesus Camp". I've never heard of the equivalent "Atheist Camp". http://www.campquest.org/ Equating Camp Quest to the organization shown in that documentary is absolutely outrageous.

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 9:32:01 AM)
quote: science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done. And yet quantum mechanics and quantum theory shows that the rules that science is based upon can be called into question, such as reality can be measured and observed without changing what is being observed.

DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 9:36:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done. And yet quantum mechanics and quantum theory shows that the rules that science is based upon can be called into question, such as reality can be measured and observed without changing what is being observed. you meant cannot. And your response seems to be at best a non sequitur.

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 9:44:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done. And yet quantum mechanics and quantum theory shows that the rules that science is based upon can be called into question, such as reality can be measured and observed without changing what is being observed. you meant cannot. And your response seems to be at best a non sequitur. What sort of non sequitur do you find it to be, there are several varieties, you know

DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 11:44:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done. And yet quantum mechanics and quantum theory shows that the rules that science is based upon can be called into question, such as reality can be measured and observed without changing what is being observed. you meant cannot. And your response seems to be at best a non sequitur. What sort of non sequitur do you find it to be, there are several varieties, you know The existence of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle does not change the fact that science operates upon the assumption that the material world is all there is.

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 11:51:20 AM)
quote: The existence of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle does not change the fact that science operates upon the assumption that the material world is all there is. What I meant by the comment was not a non sequitor, but goes to the very heart of how valid science is, which is that there is more than the material world, there is human consciousness that interacts with it. In essence, the ideational factor that science does not acknowledge is indeed part of "nature" even though it is not based in the material world Now, you may not like my observation about science and materialism, it may not be what you feel like discussing... but in an open forum of ideas, I am allowed to use your post as a springboard through which I assert a new idea.

Kirata -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 12:37:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done. Another priest showing off his whore... The natural sciences seek to understand the physical causes of physical effects and the laws by which they proceed. They do not inherently assume that the objective publicly verifiable world of experience is all there is, and they most certainly are not in the business of promulgating the metaphysical doctrines of a cranky religious cult that flatly declares that that's all there is. Door => Ass K.

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 12:47:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I've watched "Jesus Camp". I've never heard of the equivalent "Atheist Camp". http://www.campquest.org/ Equating Camp Quest to the organization shown in that documentary is absolutely outrageous. Did I say they were equal in any way? He said he didnt know of an atheist camp. I showed him there were.

DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 2:20:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done. Another priest showing off his whore... The natural sciences seek to understand the physical causes of physical effects and the laws by which they proceed. They do not inherently assume that the objective publicly verifiable world of experience is all there is, and they most certainly are not in the business of promulgating the metaphysical doctrines of a cranky religious cult that flatly declares that that's all there is. Door => Ass K. Yes, the scientist must assume, actually everyone does all the time, that there is nothing but the material world. Without that underlying assumption then you never know what caused something becaue it could always have been an angel or demon acting. You really should study the philosophy of science some before making grand wrong pronouncements. I suggest you start with Methodological Naturalism and then move on to Popper and Kant.

DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 2:21:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I've watched "Jesus Camp". I've never heard of the equivalent "Atheist Camp". http://www.campquest.org/ Equating Camp Quest to the organization shown in that documentary is absolutely outrageous. Did I say they were equal in any way? He said he didnt know of an atheist camp. I showed him there were. he wrote that he never heard of the athesit equivalent to Jesus Camp. Camp Quest is a long long way from being equivalent to that.

DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 2:29:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The existence of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle does not change the fact that science operates upon the assumption that the material world is all there is. What I meant by the comment was not a non sequitor, but goes to the very heart of how valid science is, which is that there is more than the material world, there is human consciousness that interacts with it. In essence, the ideational factor that science does not acknowledge is indeed part of "nature" even though it is not based in the material world Now, you may not like my observation about science and materialism, it may not be what you feel like discussing... but in an open forum of ideas, I am allowed to use your post as a springboard through which I assert a new idea. You fundamentally misunderstand Heisenberg and misunderstand the materialist's view of consciousness. Heisenberg is fairly simple until people who don't understand it start describing it. At the quantum scale it is impossible to know both a particles precise position and vector. This is simply because at the quantum scale any attempt to observe the particle requires interacting with it and that interaction must necessarily affect the particle. For instance to "see" a particle requires hitting the particle with photons. Those photons transfer energy to the observed particle so while we would know the position based on the reflected light we cannot know how fast and in what direction it is now moving. For the materialist consciousness is not something seperate from the brain. It is an expression of the functioning of the physical brain.

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 2:43:39 PM)
I am not talking about the Heisenberg Principle. I am talking about The Observer Effect, although human consciousness is not necessary for the effect to happen

mnottertail -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 2:45:24 PM)
Schroediger, Heisenberg, Einstein. gotta be a heavy metal group in there, hah?

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 2:50:42 PM)
quote: Schroediger His cat might be pertinent to the issue at hand, also

mnottertail -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 2:56:23 PM)
That, the collapsing function of the Danish interpretation (and goddammit, I know you had that one video Nova as I said, and I asked you for it separately from your post one time) that was about how thoughts affect quantum ..... and many other issues... But that was prolly 4 or 5 years ago.

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 3:09:34 PM)
I looked for the fuckin' thing, I swear I did!

mnottertail -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 3:10:26 PM)
I know, and it's ok, it was good though.

tweakabelle -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 3:14:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen For the materialist consciousness is not something seperate from the brain. It is an expression of the functioning of the physical brain. Sorry DK, any attempt to explain the expression and/or function of consciousness that omits reference to culture is inadequate IMHO. Descartes was wrong, plain and simple. One unavoidable implication of this is that it poses serious challenges to any claim to 'scientific objectivity' or 'scientific detachment'.

Kirata -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 3:21:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen You really should study the philosophy of science some before making grand wrong pronouncements... This coming from a priest who claims that "science is materialism"? I suggest you learn the difference between science and philosophy. K.

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 3:24:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen You really should study the philosophy of science some before making grand wrong pronouncements... This coming from a priest who claims that "science is materialism"? I suggest you learn the difference between science and philosophy. K. Materialism in philosophy has direct connotations to me, they go back to Hegel (idealist) and Marx (materialist), but that is just my German philosophy geek-on that is getting stimulated by such talk

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