RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post

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tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 1:09:05 AM)
quote: I've watched "Jesus Camp". I've never heard of the equivalent "Atheist Camp". http://www.campquest.org/ quote: Except I don't know any Atheists trying to make Theism illegal. Perhaps there is one out there, but there are also quite a few Theists who want to deport or imprison people who don't share their views. You didnt know about the atheist camp either.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 1:22:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Didnt you say ... quote: Personally, I think Deism should be accorded the same status as racism, or sexism, or anti-gay hysteria. Only thats not a personal desire, but a desire by most atheists, true? An atheist sneezes, someone says "god bless you" and they are ready to rip into the person for saying something that has been around since the plague. And lets not forget about the Merry Christmas issue. Saying that to some is tantamount to a face punch. Whether you know it or not, or just wish to try and kid others that you dont knowm atheists are very much changing how people interact in this country. Someone sneezes on the bus, no one says a word. No one knows what to say without getting their heads ripped off for the kind gesture. I dont blame all atheists, I do blame the militant ones. Something you tend to come across as, Hippie. To say that someone who believes in god, or gods, should be viewed as someone who is racist, is extremely wrong. Let those who believe, believe. Let those who dont, dont. My last visit to the pain doc, I got into a conversation witha woman about my age who was limping badly. I started off commenting that she could use a cane, like I do. As I was leaving, she said "God bless you. I'll pray for you." What do you think my response was? "Thank you." I am an antitheist, no doubt. But I don't believe in using force to get people to think like I do, as Theists throughout the ages have done. Oh, and I said Deism (I meant Theism) should be viewed the same as Racism. Note the "-ISM there, and don't rewrite what I say to suit your agenda.

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 1:27:43 AM)
quote: Oh, and I said Deism (I meant Theism) should be viewed the same as Racism. Note the "-ISM there, and don't rewrite what I say to suit your agenda. Someone who commits an act of racism is a racist. Which is why I said Deist and racist. quote: I am an antitheist, no doubt. But I don't believe in using force to get people to think like I do, as Theists throughout the ages have done. How many do? On these boards I have seen posters proclaim that they would yell at someone for saying "God bless you". So the threat is definitely real.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 1:34:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I've watched "Jesus Camp". I've never heard of the equivalent "Atheist Camp". http://www.campquest.org/ quote: Except I don't know any Atheists trying to make Theism illegal. Perhaps there is one out there, but there are also quite a few Theists who want to deport or imprison people who don't share their views. You didnt know about the atheist camp either. Fancy that. From the FAQ: "Are campers at Camp Quest required to be atheists? Answer No. Campers at Camp Quest are encouraged to think for themselves and are not required to hold any particular view. We firmly believe that children should not be labeled with worldview labels by adults, and instead should be encouraged to ask questions and explore different worldviews as they grow. We do present atheism and humanism as valid and reasonable options for an ethical and fulfilling life, and most counselors at camp consider themselves to be atheists." Contrast that with this brainwashing bullshit: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Jesus_Camp

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 1:39:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Oh, and I said Deism (I meant Theism) should be viewed the same as Racism. Note the "-ISM there, and don't rewrite what I say to suit your agenda. Someone who commits an act of racism is a racist. Which is why I said Deist and racist. quote: I am an antitheist, no doubt. But I don't believe in using force to get people to think like I do, as Theists throughout the ages have done. How many do? On these boards I have seen posters proclaim that they would yell at someone for saying "God bless you". So the threat is definitely real. Oh, horseshit. Racism is an ideology. A concept. Racists could become extinct and the concept would still exist. And someone "yelling" for saying "god bless you" is a far cry from them trying to force people to convert to Atheism. Stop with the bullshit analogies and correlations.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 1:48:28 AM)
Why Debate Dogma? Why Does Faith Deserve Respect?

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 1:49:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I've watched "Jesus Camp". I've never heard of the equivalent "Atheist Camp". http://www.campquest.org/ quote: Except I don't know any Atheists trying to make Theism illegal. Perhaps there is one out there, but there are also quite a few Theists who want to deport or imprison people who don't share their views. You didnt know about the atheist camp either. Fancy that. From the FAQ: "Are campers at Camp Quest required to be atheists? Answer No. Campers at Camp Quest are encouraged to think for themselves and are not required to hold any particular view. We firmly believe that children should not be labeled with worldview labels by adults, and instead should be encouraged to ask questions and explore different worldviews as they grow. We do present atheism and humanism as valid and reasonable options for an ethical and fulfilling life, and most counselors at camp consider themselves to be atheists." Contrast that with this brainwashing bullshit: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Jesus_Camp Sweetheart, I never said they were equivelent. But, look at the capms own hypocrisy. In “Summer camp caters to kids of atheists, agnostics,” Meredith Heagney touted Camp Quest as being just like any other summer camp, but she admitted that, while there is an “emphasis on open-mindedness, poking fun at faith isn’t forbidden.” One teenage camper stated that they “do talk sometimes about how silly … different religions are and what they to do.” Even though it’s okay to make “poke fun” at different faiths at Camp Quest, Heagney presented no critics to poke fun at Camp Quest. Instead Heagney attempted to paint the weeklong camp positivity and explained that the first rule of the camp was to “respect all people, whatever their beliefs, which you encounter while you are here.” Katie Hladky, a volunteer, teaches campers about different religions. She reassured that she “won’t bad-mouth faith or tell the kids what to think.” Hladky also stated that she doesn’t want children to be “indoctrinated.” After class, Hladkey’s scrupulously unindoctrinated pupils head off to play games as part of teams derisively named for the religions and religious practices the counselors scorn. Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/sarah-knoploh/2010/07/02/usa-today-touts-atheist-summer-camp#ixzz1PnvaZ3b4

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 1:53:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Why Debate Dogma? Why Does Faith Deserve Respect? Why would you assume faith deserves respect? I would assume just by being a member of the human race, you deserve respect, the same amount of respect you give. Something you are not giving me. quote: And someone "yelling" for saying "god bless you" is a far cry from them trying to force people to convert to Atheism. Stop with the bullshit analogies and correlations. So, because YOU feel they are bullshit, then they are bullshit. Hmmm.. and yet you insist you dont tell people how to think. I dont appreciate the language. I dont appreciate the attempts and trying to hush me up. You are quite old enough to know how to talk intelligently without resorting to such. If you dont like the discussion, you are free to leav it at any time.

tweakabelle -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 2:18:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rawtape I present these arguments not because I think theists or atheists are in any way "better" than the other, but because it appears to me that some of the rhetoric being tossed around here might leave people with an erroneous notion of how scientists and philosophers of science think about science. I've learned over time that it's part of the way that things happen here at CM that science and 'Scientism' are often conflated. Your explanation of science as a research method is perfectly proper and coherent. Despite their critical importance, the limitations of the scientific method aren't popularly understood or appreciated. The constant slippage from science as a research method to an ideology/cult (and vice versa) is an annoyance. Can I assume that you too hold some reservations about Scientism, the manner in which Dawkins et al claim to be presenters of 'Truth' (a 'Truth" that can only be established via the scientific method -a claim that is indefensible epistemologically)? This conflation does neither science nor the debate any good. But then what debate is free from issues of terminology and definition? In some of my earlier posts, I've been as guilty of this inaccuracy as any. I'll make a greater effort to distinguish the two in future.

thishereboi -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 5:30:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: or they could be real honest and just say "I don't understand how you can be stupid enough to believe that bullshit." Any way you put it, it will sound rude, so why sugar coat it. I am just surprised that he followed that comment with "However, I fail to understand the condescention of some atheists" I think people can be too overly sensitive about this stuff... on BOTH sides. I see a big difference between saying "I think the bible is a fairytale" and saying "I think every war ever fought was all due to religion and all religious people are violent assholes"... One is asserting a personal opinion, the other is demonizing an entire group of people. I agree

rawtape -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 5:40:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: rawtape I present these arguments not because I think theists or atheists are in any way "better" than the other, but because it appears to me that some of the rhetoric being tossed around here might leave people with an erroneous notion of how scientists and philosophers of science think about science. I've learned over time that it's part of the way that things happen here at CM that science and 'Scientism' are often conflated. Your explanation of science as a research method is perfectly proper and coherent. Despite their critical importance, the limitations of the scientific method aren't popularly understood or appreciated. The constant slippage from science as a research method to an ideology/cult (and vice versa) is an annoyance. Can I assume that you too hold some reservations about Scientism, the manner in which Dawkins et al claim to be presenters of 'Truth' (a 'Truth" that can only be established via the scientific method -a claim that is indefensible epistemologically)? This conflation does neither science nor the debate any good. But then what debate is free from issues of terminology and definition? Not just some reservations, tweakabelle, but many with regards to Scientism. I think it causes Dawkins, Harris et al to argue for a "strong atheist" position which I simply don't find epistemologically sound. I find myself and most of my colleagues who are atheists to be of the "weak" variety -- essentially agnostic on an epistemological level, but considering the god thesis to be on a par with other non-falsifiable theses that we normally dismiss. I leave "Truths" to mathematicians; we scientists simply try to come up with more and more accurate (but always provisional) models/maps of reality.

Owner59 -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 5:51:20 AM)
"The constant slippage from science as a research method to an ideology/cult (and vice versa) is an annoyance." This. Thanks for saying what I`ve been saying for years. There are a few ass-hats who think science is a political position or stance.As if cons had their set of scientists and libs had theirs.Dumb.

thishereboi -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 5:55:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Oh, and I said Deism (I meant Theism) should be viewed the same as Racism. Note the "-ISM there, and don't rewrite what I say to suit your agenda. Someone who commits an act of racism is a racist. Which is why I said Deist and racist. quote: I am an antitheist, no doubt. But I don't believe in using force to get people to think like I do, as Theists throughout the ages have done. How many do? On these boards I have seen posters proclaim that they would yell at someone for saying "God bless you". So the threat is definitely real. You mean like this one? http://www.collarchat.com/m_3307139/mpage_1/tm.htm

rawtape -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 6:05:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: rawtape I present these arguments not because I think theists or atheists are in any way "better" than the other, but because it appears to me that some of the rhetoric being tossed around here might leave people with an erroneous notion of how scientists and philosophers of science think about science. In my opinion, the issue isn't really between religion and science at all. That whole notion is a red-herring, introduced and religiously maintained by a cadre of committed Materialists seeking to propagate their faith at the expense of both science and religion. K. No real disagreement there, K, other than to suggest that there's also a committed bunch of Idealists and Dualists doing the same.

Kirata -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 7:06:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The constant slippage from science as a research method to an ideology/cult (and vice versa) is an annoyance. This just in... Scientists Debunk Mountain Lions Dichard Rawkins, Ham Sarris, and Histopher Chritchens have come out in support of a controversial statement made by Royal Society spokesman Kord Lelvin in response to a query from a BBC presenter during an interview which was broadcast yesterday evening on the network's World News programme. Responding to questions about a recently published report by the International Oceans Study Group, Lelvin bluntly remarked, "The data is in. Mountain Lions do not exist." Explaining, he went on to say: "Over one hundred years of painstaking oceanographic research has failed to discover even the slighest evidence of such a mythological creature. The time has come to close the book on it." Rawkins observed that it was good to see a reputable scientist eschew non-commital "dishonesty." Chritchens reportedly pumped his fist, exclaiming "Well done!" Sarris cautioned that Lelvin's words should not be interpreted as disrespectful of believers, but rather as simply expressing a rational view of the matter. K.

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 7:21:42 AM)
quote: Julia: once again, Tell me, what is "somthing bigger than one's self"? Why should I define something I do not necessarily believe in?

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 7:34:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 "The constant slippage from science as a research method to an ideology/cult (and vice versa) is an annoyance." This. Thanks for saying what I`ve been saying for years. There are a few ass-hats who think science is a political position or stance.As if cons had their set of scientists and libs had theirs.Dumb. Half of anthropology as a discipline holds to this, the other half has its science panties in a wad because we cultural people are seen more as a "humanities" and they want to be seen as "hard scientists".... to the point where entire departments go to war (including mine)

eihwaz -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 7:37:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Personally, I think Deism should be accorded the same status as racism, or sexism, or anti-gay hysteria. Let me just ask this directly, should it be outlawed? Should it be stopped? How does one outlaw belief? Whether it be belief in the superiority of one particular "race" (no such thing as race, btw), or in the superiority of one sex over another, or the belief in an invisible supernatural being? One outlaws certain actions arising out of belief. We don't outlaw racism and sexism, but discrimination and certain other actions based on race or sex are illegal. Are you proposing the same for deism/theism? quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster I think the path to rationality starts with education. Is rationality the sole measure of value? There are large domains of human culture, behavior, and experience that are nonrational, including art, music, poetry, love, personal values, and what foods we like. Are the latter inherently inferior for being nonrational?

juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 7:58:33 AM)
When one studies how the process of dehumanization begins, it can begin with prejudice and bigotry that leads to dehumanization. Stereotyping is a part of that process. So, we have a group of people who feel put upon and discriminated against by another group of people (whether true or not) and then that group begins to organize and "strike back". Striking back means to go back and find every instance where the group that has harmed them has done something wrong (like start a war, mistreat women and children, etc etc etc) and then you paint everyone in that group with the same brush... whether they deserve it or not. Now you have significant portions of your group believing all the people who belong to that "other" group are stupid, irrational, abusive to women, violent, bigoted, etc etc etc... well what does an ethical person do about such a thing? They must destroy that group, of course! Now some people may advocate to kindly "educate" (or reeducate) people who are members of that group, others will propose changing laws (especially if they ever hold what they feel is a majority), and still others will say the laws protect them from other people's beliefs (like renaming children's school breaks, insisting no one say Merry Christmas", etc etc etc). Some people will say "Let's outlaw God!". And yes, the "outlaw god" folks have done it in other places in the past. And they even killed people to get rid of religion. Personally, I have no trouble with any sort of belief system that people want to subscribe to, just be tolerant of others. I have very little respect for any group that disrespects others. I have even less patience for those who demonize people who do not believe the same way they do. I have no patience with Pat Robertson's ilk either.

DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/20/2011 9:22:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster you call those who seek to further their understanding of the universe by means of logic, and the scientific method, a "cadre of committed Materialists seeking to propagate their faith..." It is always gratifying when someone is kind enough to so promptly step forward and prove my point, in the present case by baldly equating science with Materialism... which is precisely what I did not do. Thank you. K. science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done.

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