RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (Full Version)

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kyraofMists -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 7:34:47 PM)

For me, marriage has very little meaning. Growing up, I saw a few couples put a lot of value in marriage at the expense of their relationship. I prefer to focus on the relationship.

This works out well being in a poly relationship and he and Alandra are already married; there is no stress over the fact that I will not be married to him. His family does not see me as any different than Alandra to him; they consider me his wife as much as Alandra is. Alandra's mom learned of our anniversary date for our relationship and made a point of putting it in her calender to remember in the future.

One of the best compliments we have received over the years was from Lucky; she said that if she didn't know who was first in the relationship, she would not be able to tell by how he speaks of us. For us, that was high praise.

Marriage isn't going to impact our relationship. All three of us are highly tied together, emotionally, mentally and financially.

Knight's Kyra



LadyPact -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 7:45:35 PM)

NV, I'd like to take the opportunity to apologize for the unfortunate downside to this topic.  Sadly, even when discussing the good side of marriage, it's almost impossible to completely ignore the bad angle of it. 

The sad thing is, as humans, we don't always act as nicely towards each other when a relationship ends.  Everybody out there has a good story about some ex-spouse (trying to stay gender neutral here) screwing the other one over and kids getting treated like pawns and leverage material.  People certainly can have ugly sides, can't they?



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 7:50:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Marriage isn't going to impact our relationship. All three of us are highly tied together, emotionally, mentally and financially.



Hi Kyra, thanks for your post.  This (above) is beautiful, and a value I'm finding many feel, as well.

And that's really cool about Alandra's mom!  [:)]



lockedaway -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 7:51:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

NV, I'd like to take the opportunity to apologize for the unfortunate downside to this topic.  Sadly, even when discussing the good side of marriage, it's almost impossible to completely ignore the bad angle of it. 

The sad thing is, as humans, we don't always act as nicely towards each other when a relationship ends.  Everybody out there has a good story about some ex-spouse (trying to stay gender neutral here) screwing the other one over and kids getting treated like pawns and leverage material.  People certainly can have ugly sides, can't they?



lolol Well...with the divorce rate in the U.S. at 57% or higher, it would seem that the majority of people have ugly, little sides.  I'm not opposed to the institution of marriage but people should know the intrinsic dangers before going into one.



heartcream -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 7:56:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

It is a binding, legal contract where, 19 out of 20 times, the guy gets his teeth screwed out of his head.  Marriage is fine if you are going to have kids but, if not, I advise any man reading this to stay out of it.

You want the downside of marriage?  This scenario is typical (not extraordinary....typical).  You get married.  Both you and your wife are working and have careers.  A kid comes along.  She takes off a few years to raise the kid and keep the house and that is all perfectly fine.  Two years later, another kid comes along.  She takes off another two years but those four years turn into 12 years.  The marriage, for whatever reason, starts to breakdown.  In a worst case scenario, let's say the marriage broke down because she was caught committing adultery.  Here is what will happen:

1) she will get income imputed to her at the highest level she attained while she was working 12 years ago;

2) the man will pay child support pursuant to his current income;

3) the man will pay rehabilitative and/or permanent alimony which is alimony up until the age of retirement;

4) the house will be sold and the proceeds split 50/50 OR the house will not be able to be sold until the youngest child is emancipated with the man having to pay a portion of the roof expenses in addition to having to pay for his own lodging;

5) by the time it is all said and done, the alimony and child support will amount to 55% of the man's earnings;

6) all pensions will be split 50/50 from the date of the marriage except she hasn't been working and so there has been no contribution to her pension for the past 12 years.

So...how does that sound?  That is a typical result.



Huh? She hasnt been working? Huh? Um... seriously and you are a matrimonial lawyer and this is the shit you say?



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 7:56:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

NV, I'd like to take the opportunity to apologize for the unfortunate downside to this topic.  Sadly, even when discussing the good side of marriage, it's almost impossible to completely ignore the bad angle of it. 


No worries, LadyPact, it's human nature.  When thinking of marriage, it is natural now to also think of divorce.  The downside in this thread came from one's very negative post which had nothing to do with how people feel about being personally married or not. 

quote:


The sad thing is, as humans, we don't always act as nicely towards each other when a relationship ends.  Everybody out there has a good story about some ex-spouse (trying to stay gender neutral here) screwing the other one over and kids getting treated like pawns and leverage material.  People certainly can have ugly sides, can't they?



Oh they certainly do, and I've got my own experiences of that, which I posted, in all my silliness. [;)]

But I figured those would be taken into account, if, for example, someone felt very strongly about ever being married again as a result.  I know I once felt that way, but it was only when I realized I no longer did, that I wondered how others might feel.  The Mister has his own feelings about marriage (not likely to happen for him again) but was concerned I might feel hurt when he told me.  So I had to think about what I actually think about being married at this point in my life. It was an interesting mental exercise!



LadyPact -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 7:56:55 PM)

I'm going to suggest that maybe you start a thread on the subject of divorce.  I already hijacked here once, so I really don't want to do it again.



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 7:58:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm going to suggest that maybe you start a thread on the subject of divorce. 


Great idea and I hope he does!



littlewonder -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 7:58:54 PM)

wow. I'm so glad I have never become bitter or jaded about marriage and/or relationships in general. I think it must be a sad way to go through life.




lockedaway -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 8:04:11 PM)

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.  Re-read the post.  The topic that you have in bold face is regarding pensions, not consortium or society or housekeeping services, etc.  It is ONLY regarding pensions.

As far as my posts being off topic and the suggestion that I start a thread about divorce, the thread is about marriage and whether it is merely a piece of paper.  It is not.  It is a contract that has some of the most calamitous consequences a person may ever face.



lockedaway -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 8:05:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm going to suggest that maybe you start a thread on the subject of divorce. 


Great idea and I hope he does!




Thaaaaaaaat's right....kill the messenger.  Fine.  Night ladies. :)



littlewonder -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 8:06:28 PM)

aannd...many many more rewards that you could ever imagine




NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 8:07:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.  Re-read the post.  The topic that you have in bold face is regarding pensions, not consortium or society or housekeeping services, etc.  It is ONLY regarding pensions.

As far as my posts being off topic and the suggestion that I start a thread about divorce, the thread is about marriage and whether it is merely a piece of paper.  It is not.  It is a contract that has some of the most calamitous consequences a person may ever face.



From the OP:  "I'm simply interested in the views of people with regard to their own partner(s), or partner(s) to be."

However, thank you for the information on your experiences counseling divorces.



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 8:08:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway


Thaaaaaaaat's right....kill the messenger.  Fine.  Night ladies. :)



Darling no one is "killing you" - I was dead serious about it being a good idea. 



TreasureKY -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 8:08:37 PM)

Some background...

I was married first when I was barely 17.  It was not a "shotgun" wedding... I just couldn't wait to leave home (and my mother) and have a life of my own. 

I was a kid and dumb.  I wasn't careful about who I married.  I didn't think beyond the moment and opportunity.

It lasted barely a year, and thankfully there were no children or other legal encumbrances.  The divorce cost me $300 in attorney/court fees and ten minutes in front of a judge.

In my mind I don't really count that as a marriage, but legally it was.

I married again a few years later.  Having "been there, done that", I considered myself wiser about what to expect with a marriage.  I accepted the proposal of a man I liked and who appeared to be easy to live with. 

But again, I was shortsighted.  While we had a decent marriage... no fighting and a fairly quiet home life, the relationship was detrimental to me as an individual.  My ex-husband was compatible with my easy-going nature, but I had failed to consider a myriad of other compatibility factors that would have an affect on my long-term and overall happiness.

Twenty-two years and three children later, I literally woke up one day and looked ten years into the future.  The realization that I would be in the same place and same state of mere existence made me break down and cry.  I could see myself dying, having never really lived or accomplishing anything that I had longed to.  There would be no change or progress for me (or my ex) unless I made it happen.

So, I made it happen.  The marriage ended.

It was all very amicable, considering.  While there were three children, only one was still a minor, though a teenager.  Even after 22 years, there were few marital assets to divide.  To be honest, there was even less that I was interested in hanging on to. 

In all, the divorce itself cost me less than the first as it was done pro se.  It's actually rather shocking at how easy things can go when both parties are agreeable.

That all being said, even though I had experienced marriage and divorce twice, I never developed any bitter feelings toward marriage.  I realized that it wasn't the fault of marriage... rather it was my own failings in selecting the right partner.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I've heard some people claim it's just a piece of paper, and they don't need it to make a commitment to their partner.


I don't feel it is necessary to be married to make a commitment to a partner.  I do, however, feel that it is the ultimate demonstration of commitment.  Of course, it is just a demonstration... and demonstrating intent doesn't guarantee success in the long run.  [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I've heard some people say it makes the commitment and/or bond to each other stronger.


For some, it may, though I cannot say whether mine and Firm's was made stronger.  To be honest, it's a shock sometimes to remember that we are married.  [:)]  Other than some legal issues that were resolved, our life and love has not changed in the past year and a half.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I've heard some people say it's too problematic to partake in, because it makes breaking up so much more difficult and complicated.


That has not been my experience, but I realize that I don't really fall into the norm here.  I think I had been divorced for a little over a year when Firm and I first met.  At that time he was still embroiled in the dramatic finalization of his divorce.  He was strongly opposed to the idea of ever marrying again, and I sincerely could not blame him... his experience with the institution and termination thereof was not as serene as my own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I've heard some people say it's the marriage vows that kept them together, during the really rough times.


I do think that is true for many.  I know I would never have stayed married for the 22 years that I did, had I not taken my vows seriously.  It was truly a soul wrenching process to finally arrive at my decision to end it. 

I'm a fervent believer in never willingly allow the possibility of divorce to be raised.  Once that door is opened, it is like a cancer.  It should never be something casually introduced as a solution to a problem... it should never, ever be cast onto the table as a threat.



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 8:15:15 PM)

Thank you, Treasure, for sharing so much of yourself here (I love getting to know people through their posts). What do you think changed Firm's thinking about the concept of marriage?  Besides your lovely involvement in his life, that is. [;)]

quote:

  ORIGINAL:  TreasureKY
I do think that is true for many.  I know I would never have stayed married for the 22 years that I did, had I not taken my vows seriously.  It was truly a soul wrenching process to finally arrive at my decision to end it. 

I'm a fervent believer in never willingly allow the possibility of divorce to be raised.  Once that door is opened, it is like a cancer.  It should never be something casually introduced as a solution to a problem... it should never, ever be cast onto the table as a threat.


I completely agree with you here, both that it was a soul wrenching process to end my marriage, and that once the possibility of divorce is raised, it most often just grows from there.

I appreciate all that you have contributed. Thank you.




MistressDarkArt -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 8:52:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDarkArt

I think marriage should be like having your driver's license with the DMV: every 4 years send in a form and some minor fee to renew it if desired. Would certainly eliminate lots of divorce lawyer jobs, but those folks could be retrained to work at the DOM (Department Of Matrimony).


What about the children?


How would this be any different than getting a divorce as it stands now? If you want to stay together 'for the sake of the children', you renew your marriage license. If not, the same laws would apply to custody and child support as they do now. Just as unmarried couples who have children together are held to the same legal and financial responsibilities as married parents, letting a marriage 'expire' would not excuse adults from their responsibilities to their children. No need to reinvent the wheel. Also, for the myriad of couples with no children involved (and there are more and more of them) it makes complete sense.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 8:54:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Thank you, Treasure, for sharing so much of yourself here (I love getting to know people through their posts). What do you think changed Firm's thinking about the concept of marriage?  Besides your lovely involvement in his life, that is. [;)]

May I answer?  [:)][8D]

Basically, I've always believed that marriage should indeed be something seriously entered into, and have a strong permanence. 

Like Treasure, it took me several years to overcome my personal beliefs to void my first marriage.  No great details, but the situation I was in - both long and short term - was pretty bad.  My first partner changed over time (likely due to issues beyond her control) but she wasn't amendable to help, nor saw anything wrong with her behavior or actions.

She grew from a loving mother, strong wife and helpmate into a model stereotypical psycho-bitch from hell.  Drugs, alcohol and spending twice my annual income on credit cards are kinda the tip of the iceberg.

I spent years of reaching out to her personally and then professionally (doctors, neurologists, psychologist, therapists, counselors, clergy, friends, etc): all for naught.

Finally, I was depressed, battle-stressed, tired, worn-out, isolated and emotionally battered.  From a very social person, to an automaton, going through the motions of life to fulfill my obligations to my kids. By that point, I realized that I was looking at a sad end if I did not change my views of "til death do us part", and took the necessary actions to start my recovery.

I did not think I would ever be interested in marrying again.  Once was enough.

But, over time, Treasure changed my mind.  She changed it by years of love, patience and behavior that showed me that a relationship could be healthy without the drama and tension.  She did not demand.  She supported.  She did not cause me stress.  She relieved it.  She re-invigorated me, and my belief that two people, a man and a woman could meld together into a unit that was a new thing, something more than, and better than two separate individuals.

Marriage was an affirmation of my belief in her, in my love for her, and my desire to show a commitment beyond "yeah, we are together".

In BDSM terms, I've always thought that the commitment that a sub gives to a dom with a collar should be mirrored by the commitment that a sub earns from a dom.  (Substitute the words "man" and "woman" if you want.  Same thing in my mind, for us).  Marrying her was my overt commitment equivalent her accepting my collar.  Collar, ring, should all be the same, don't think?

I meant it when I told her that she was mine for life.  She meant it when she said she was mine for life.  What's the barrier to expressing it in a marriage?  If you are convinced of the truth of it, then marriage is a simple step.

Dunno if that's enough.  I could write a lot more, but perhaps that's enough for now.

Firm



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 9:07:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


But, over time, Treasure changed my mind.  She changed it by years of love, patience and behavior that showed me that a relationship could be healthy without the drama and tension.  She did not demand.  She supported.  She did not cause me stress.  She relieved it.  She re-invigorated me, and my belief that two people, a man and a woman could meld together into a unit that was a new thing, something more than, and better than two separate individuals.


I find it so beautiful when people come together and find this in each other.  Whether they marry or not, in fact, it's just a wonderful thing when people discover and create a healthy relationship with each other.  Because of my own history, I find it refreshing.

quote:


Dunno if that's enough.  I could write a lot more, but perhaps that's enough for now.


If you guys keep it up I could read you both all night.  But yes, you answered exactly what my question was, and I thank you for that.

This thread has been so interesting to me.  [:)]



SexyBossyBBW -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/21/2011 9:16:06 PM)

Marriage is much more than a piece of paper to me. It is the culmination of pursuit, courtship, and falling in love with someone, who loves me the way I need to be loved. In the case of couples who are religious, marriage asks for God's blessing of your partnership, its success, and blessings for the fruits of said marriage. To me, it is the logical conclusion, of love; so that I can stop calling him, "the man/boy" I'm dating, or my boyfriend at my age.

Having said that, I'm hesitant to ever marry again, and don't have any issue, co-habitating with someone, outside the institution of marriage. Like most people, I hate the chance of failure, and divorcing. M



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