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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 1:41:49 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



Thanks for that clarification and facile excuse for the double standard.

Unfortunately, it being academia, there are still stipilations involved which in fact run counter to the proposal of origionality, which your response conveys all too well.


How about this: you believe what you wish to believe and I'll believe what I believe.

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 2:03:25 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



~FR~

The academicians here would possibly better contribute to the discission if they were to were to explain the impetus behind such inane "questions," -to be charitable about it-, in the first place, and perhaps indulge the rest of us as to what particular 'critical thinking' would be behind such venture as requiring a student to write the imposed papers in service to academia's abstemiousness to r/l experience themselves, and disinclination to allow any experience of others in pursuit of that. Explain your own abilities in that regard. The questions proposed indicate lack of that ability in most instances, to be honest.

Where in r/l have you actually come up upon the things you propose to students; which by such insistence you impose upon them, as it turns out, being just for your own entertainment?

Enlighten us here.





If this were a real question, framed in a non-aggressive stance, I'd be happy to. However, the way you've asked prompts only one answer from THIS academician.

No.

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 2:04:26 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:


How about this: you believe what you wish to believe and I'll believe what I believe.




You are half right there.

The world is a belief system for you, and whatever 'critical thinking' as may be derived from that.

My background in geology and economics (some good portion of it from academia, no less) leaves me with an appreciation of the world as it is, sans the artifice of  'critical thinking' as may exist in others' worlds.

I don't 'believe,' and neither do I know for certainty. The need for 'certainty' is what led to belief in the first place, lest that may have escaped notice.









< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/21/2011 2:09:04 AM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 2:30:34 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



~FR~

The academicians here would possibly better contribute to the discission if they were to were to explain the impetus behind such inane "questions," -to be charitable about it-, in the first place, and perhaps indulge the rest of us as to what particular 'critical thinking' would be behind such venture as requiring a student to write the imposed papers in service to academia's abstemiousness to r/l experience themselves, and disinclination to allow any experience of others in pursuit of that. Explain your own abilities in that regard. The questions proposed indicate lack of that ability in most instances, to be honest.

Where in r/l have you actually come up upon the things you propose to students; which by such insistence you impose upon them, as it turns out, being just for your own entertainment?

Enlighten us here.





If this were a real question, framed in a non-aggressive stance, I'd be happy to. However, the way you've asked prompts only one answer from THIS academician.

No.


OK, let's take that away, if possible. It was only my own insignificant response or input to begin with.


Is the question of what life would be like had civil rights not been imposed in 1964 and 1965 (or the pill in 1960) meaning; life for the people in question was frozen at that point, and here we are today, everything else in progression while that particular issue being held in suspension until the time of today, or in the life of this student?, socially, technically, scientifically, etc, or, would this be a r/l question, as if there would not have been rioting even beyond what in fact happened in LA or Detroit in '66 or '67? Would there not have been the issue setttled in r/l no more than 5 years later? The proposed question seems to dissuade the student from everything to do with reality, even in various possibilities, for sake of a proposed unrealility in service to some contrived notion of  'critical thinking.'

Sorry, I'm not buying it.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/21/2011 2:34:09 AM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 3:55:14 AM   
KMsAngel


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see, in my studies, critical thinking isn't looking at a subject critically at all, it's being able to look at a subject objectively, to distance onself to a certain degree to be able to see all sides, culturally, historically, etc etc. and then compare those values and beliefs you've just highlighted by realising "that's my cultural window" you're looking through, and aim to look at it from a different cultural, historic, etc filter.

most history is written by victorious westerners, isn't it? so have you tried to look at an issue through the eyes of a conquered eastern country?

have you looked at the activities, for instance of the UK and US military powers through the eyes of someone who's had the hell bombed out of them?
have you looked at the phenomenon of indian women being surrogates for childless couples, male/female gay couples through the eyes of an indian family looking to secure a future for themselves, rather than through the eyes of a western woman who has a mortgage and vacations yearly and can afford shiny new tv's because she sells 20-30 eggs for harvesting for these same childless couples?

i've just come from an ethics class - i'm all full of debate

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 4:07:51 AM   
sunshinemiss


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http://wimp.com/chineseteacup

quote:


Is the question of what life would be like had civil rights not been imposed in 1964 and 1965 (or the pill in 1960) meaning; life for the people in question was frozen at that point, and here we are today, everything else in progression while that particular issue being held in suspension until the time of today, or in the life of this student?, socially, technically, scientifically, etc, or, would this be a r/l question, as if there would not have been rioting even beyond what in fact happened in LA or Detroit in '66 or '67? Would there not have been the issue setttled in r/l no more than 5 years later? The proposed question seems to dissuade the student from everything to do with reality, even in various possibilities, for sake of a proposed unrealility in service to some contrived notion of 'critical thinking.'


Well, I'm not sure what would have happened, and frankly I'm not interested in the specifics. I ask my students real life types of questions. They need to imagine themselves in that situation, and then consider emotions, behaviors, thoughts, society, family, peers, etc. It is a method for me to get them to think in third person, to think in "one" as opposed to "me" or "you", to practice particular vocabulary. It is an exercise based on an actual grammatical or vocabulary-based dictate and a way to make them think beyond what is real. It is also a common psychological exercise... what would you do if.... what would have happened if... There are a couple of very interesting historical based books that have historians trying to answer those very questions. This book comes to mind: http://www.amazon.com/What-If-Robert-Cowley/dp/0330487248

You may feel it is contrived, but some people enjoy the logical exercise.


best,
sunshine

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 4:16:49 AM   
sunshinemiss


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Oh... and the Chinese teacup... wimp.com/chineseteacup actually shows a discussion of this phenomenon from the hindsight perspective. Plus I think it's cool.

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 5:07:17 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KMsAngel

see, in my studies, critical thinking isn't looking at a subject critically at all, it's being able to look at a subject objectively, to distance onself to a certain degree to be able to see all sides, culturally, historically, etc etc. and then compare those values and beliefs you've just highlighted by realising "that's my cultural window" you're looking through, and aim to look at it from a different cultural, historic, etc filter.

most history is written by victorious westerners, isn't it? so have you tried to look at an issue through the eyes of a conquered eastern country?

have you looked at the activities, for instance of the UK and US military powers through the eyes of someone who's had the hell bombed out of them?
have you looked at the phenomenon of indian women being surrogates for childless couples, male/female gay couples through the eyes of an indian family looking to secure a future for themselves, rather than through the eyes of a western woman who has a mortgage and vacations yearly and can afford shiny new tv's because she sells 20-30 eggs for harvesting for these same childless couples?

i've just come from an ethics class - i'm all full of debate


You have hit upon my area of study, truth be known, Eastern Europe, that is.

But study of economic development was not needed, nor any academic treatment of it at all, for my attention to be directed thuswise or implications of Western 'manefestation' (or perhaps 'infestation') in that regard, howevermuch Western academia may delude themeselves into thinking that we would all be just sitting here waving finger over spitting toungues in absence of their efforts otherwise.

No country is perfect, as anyone who has read my repeated allusions to various European countries would glean, even though I use such reference often in the vain effort to direct the 'typical American' viewpoint to other possibilities.

The sooner that academic social studies of the English or History or other departments gets caught up to the task here, as would be evidenced by asking other than inane questions, the sooner we might get to the issue and real solutions.

History, actual events, actual economics, etc., is just an academic play toy to them, their limited understanding in that regard translated to a 'philosophical excercise' to justify existence of their whole department. The unholy crap they come up with in the  classroom would be evidence enough of that to any thinking person.

BTW, if you want a really good laugh, look at any Western academic history department treatment of  either economics or music. Funny, funny.











< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/21/2011 5:18:43 AM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 5:34:53 AM   
Edwynn


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Miss Sunshine,

Please, I do not mean to denigrate your good efforts here. Were there but only more like yourself, if your intention is to actually elicit greater thought, by whatever method.

The false accusations towards the OP regarding what was to many here a bogus exercise to begin with foisted upon her by an unthinking person in position of power is perhaps what led me to the respones I have given myself.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/21/2011 5:43:20 AM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 6:22:48 AM   
sunshinemiss


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The thing is Edwynn,
There are more like me. They are all around. Like any profession, there are the good ones and the bad ones, but most are somewhere in the middle (including me). We as teachers are caught up in a sterile environment - the classroom - in which we do what we can to make education come to life, become real. Sometimes, though, it is just an exercise in "do what I say"... not because I am being power hungry but because I can't possibly explain the motive so they can understand. Sometimes it boils down to: I trained for this. I do research - reading the work of others and original research of my own. You need to trust me.

It would do them no good for me to explain present, practice, produce. I allude to it. I explain when need be or to build trust. Then they choose to trust my judgment or not. Sometimes it is just having faith in the teacher, the university, and the process.

Also, like most things, there is more there than meets the eye.

best,
sunshine

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 7:18:50 AM   
KMsAngel


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my personal opinion on not just americans, but peoples in general, is that if you never leave your own country of origin, you tend to embrace an ego and cultural centric outlook on life. and in the case of a powerful nation like the US, this can be disasterous. you NEED to be able to see how your decisions impact on others, not just in your house, your backyard and your state, but in the state on the other side of the country, the countries right next door to you, and countries halfway around the world.

there's a short series on an aus tv station over here that's apparently very powerful (haven't had the chance to watch the recorded first episode yet), called "go back to where you came from". it should be eye opening to many australians who've never left their back yard nor bothered to think about the circumstances of some refugees. i can't help but think that some americans should a) be 'forced' to watch it and b) make the same kinds of trips. only lets substitute mexicans, hm?

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 7:26:15 AM   
sunshinemiss


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Wow. that looks amazing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHjVTCRKLFU

I found that commercial for it...

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 7:30:54 AM   
KMsAngel


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this is a MUCH longer intro. i've recently done some papers on immigrants/refugees and the absolute arrogance and lack of empathy and sheer effrontry of these people absolutely amaze me. especially the social worker woman. it will be with a small amount of smugness that i watch her come-upance i think.

http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/goback/

i don't know whether the full broadcast will be available online, but if anyone's interested, i'll find out

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 7:32:55 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello OP,

First, let me preface with I'm a teacher. While I understand that you want to have a discussion about this, are you actually working within the spirit of the assignment? When I ask my students to write an opinion paper, I want THEIR opinion. I want them to think about it - particularly a paper that is about THEIR LIFE. I can't possibly know how YOUR life would be different, what career path changes there would be. No one on this board can. We can certainly give our opinions about how the world would be different, but in the end, the question as you posed it is that you are to talk about how YOUR life would be different.

So, I ask you - how has the birth control pill affected you? Would you have been born? Did your family talk to you about birth control? Have you used it? What medical issues have you needed to manage with birth control? How has this affected your career path?

I am happy when the questions spark debate, but you aren't really debating. You are asking people to write your paper for you or at the very least to do the thinking for you. I would consider that on the continuum of cheating. What kind of critical thinking are you learning if you get others to do your thinking for you?

... and to the forum regulars who are answering this - why is THIS question ok for a paper that you will discuss but when folks want to talk about BDSM for a paper or they are doing research, people get their panties all in a twist. This issue is no less personal. It is no less vague. It is all about how you answer it - whether you make it personal versus conceptual.


best,
sunshine

To add to Prof. sunshine's post, I cringe every time I hear a student say this:
quote:

I have to spread out my answers into 5 pages for these three questions which I am finding to be pretty challenging

Why? It means there's no thought, no development, no content. Five pages is nothing--1500+ words. Any real exploration into the assignment prompts would give you far more than this minimum length.

The goal isn't to generate paper...the paper is a consequence of the assignment. Don't skip the assignment step.

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 8:04:38 AM   
Aneirin


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The Pill, what if it was never invented, well, perhaps reliion would still have a control over the majorities lives like the bad old days, but on a more positive note, perhaps male infertility or low sperm count would be less of a problem, nor fish going homosexual or other factors attributed to the build up of eostrogen in the water supply.

But if eostrogen in the water supply from recycled water that we all drink is a factor in the apparent increase in less masculine males, is this a good thing or bad, are we being desexed by our dabblings with the very building blocks of nature.

Well, the feminist movement seem to think it is a good thing and I am inclined to concur and that by narrowing the traditional divide between males and females

But as ever our dabblings with nature has its consequences, rising infertility, but of that the world is said to be overpopulated anyway so perhaps our dabblings have actually helped the proposed world population crisis by stemming the amount of people produced. But there is a problem in that, that with a declining population in places where the water is recycled, might actually lead to a devolution in intellect as those places that do not have the pill now and  the pharmaceutical polluted waters that we drink will thrive in terms of population, where we of the west will decline.

But eostrogen is not the only pharmaceutical in the water supply, and that due to our fondness for the pill, any pill to soothe our ailments, once flushed, forgotten, but perhaps we will reap what we are sowing and there give work to those very pharmaceutical producers that have sold us our present ailments ;

Pharmaceuticals in our water supplies

And it is not just the water, but synthetic eostrogen in plastics, water bottles, baby soothers, a material used to soften plastics, the BPA and phthalate, which you may notice various agencies are now taking action on, ever seen the slogan; 'BPA Free ', this is why.

http://www.home-water-filter.info/blog/estrogens-in-plastic-water-bottles-affect-our-boys/

But if the subject interests ;

In 2004, in Colorado, male fish were found to have both male and female sexual characteristics, such as partially developed ova, or eggs, in their testes. Fish damaged in this way have been found in the United States, Great Britain, Italy and other countries. This sex-related damage to fish may not be significant but researchers suggest that it's a warning of potential dangers to humans. Estrogens in drinking water may affect male fertility by interfering with sperm production. Links between environmental estrogenic compounds and several kinds of cancer, especially breast and testicular cancer, also have been suggested.

But what does this mean, could it be the future of mankind is that of a singular nature and the end of sex, will that third sex be an evolution or a devolution, will this mutants be seen as a threat or the way forward ?

The Brave New World that was as ever created in the past.

Fuck around with nature, it will get us back in the end.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 6/21/2011 8:08:14 AM >


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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 8:16:04 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

The Pill, what if it was never invented, well, perhaps reliion would still have a control over the majorities lives like the bad old days, but on a more positive note, perhaps m


In countries where religion is strong (a huge part of the world, by the way), the pill is difficult to get. The people do justtttttttttttttttt fine.

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 8:29:41 AM   
Aneirin


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The pill and other pharmaceuticals and chemicals in the water supply we drink is of more concern to me than any brand of sky or land fairy, but it might take the resurgence of religious values particularly of the catholic variety to stop our actions where the pill is concerned at least.

So what do we do about the chemicals that are so obviously in our food chain, do something about it or let it ride and see what happens, see what we have caused nature to do to our and other species on this earth.



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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 9:26:00 AM   
DesFIP


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My kids have gotten stuck on assignments before. So I don't think that offering "have you thought about this aspect" to be cheating. My youngest years ago was told to write a sonnet and couldn't do it until I told him to think of it as a rap song with specific rhyming requirements. His teacher was rather bemused but he got the assignment done.

Anyway, to think beyond pregnancy prevention for a moment. Without hormonal birth control, more people would use barrier methods including more condom usage which would have slowed down disease transmission during the free love period. It would not have affected AIDS in gays but would have in straight women during the early days when no one knew anything about it.

Additionally, without pill forms of progesterone, ovarian cysts would automatically require surgery. I took progesterone for a cyst and it worked, avoiding surgery which would have been the next step.

Also hormonal birth control is used for PMS and PMDD. Women who are otherwise incapacitated 5-7 days a month now can hold full time jobs. You get fired for taking a week off every month or for coming in being totally nonproductive and unable to respond politely to coworkers and customers.

And may I suggest using quotes liberally to add to the paper length. Put them in their own paragraphs to add a line or two. And although Times New Roman 12 is usually specified, if you move it up to 13 for paragraph breaks you get a little more space without it being identifiable. Those suggestions come from my honor student, three semester Dean's List college grad who has frequently been stymied by arbitrary length requirements.


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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 11:34:11 AM   
Edwynn


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I find it instructive and illustrative of the current academic environment that the OP, a couple of posts later, phrased her inquiry as 'seeking others' opinions' rather than 'seeking others' experience,' which is how it would have been proposed some years ago.

In my recent experience in that venture, everything, at every opportunity, seems to be presented in terms of "what do you think?" I'm not kidding; this little box saying that very thing was at the upper left or upper right of the page of an American Political History texbook, following a short snippet of some provocatively stated 'factoid' within same little box.

No history or explanation behind it, just the bland but button-pushing selected shove-against-the-wall to the student. Of course the 'explanation,' such as it was, was obtained in subsequent pages. But we see where the focus here is, nonetheless.

Academia has gone haywire with this latest "critical thinking" tack, to the extent that their own incapacity for such has been turned upon the poor student, as evidenced by such questions that eschew reality from the start and then expect students to answer in terms of part reality/ part obscure-but-never-adequately-explained rules of the paper writing game.

Lest it might have escaped notice, the OP was not asking anyone here to 'write her paper,' but even if she does not consciously recognize it herself, she is actually asking; "where the frick do such idiotic questions arise, and why is my final grade dependant upon proper response to such improper nonsense?"






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/21/2011 11:41:28 AM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 3:06:37 PM   
DesFIP


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I don;t think it is nonsense. It's asking the students to think outside the box instead of regurgitating facts.

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