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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 3:16:14 PM   
Edwynn


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I'm there firsthand.

Believe me, it's nonsense.

If  'thinking outside of the box' had any reward, as imposed by academia, then it might be another matter.

Let the response be anything resembling 'outside of the box' rather than where the instructor intends, and let's see how far that goes.

It's a sucker punch, and never intended as anything beyond that.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/21/2011 3:37:22 PM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 3:58:30 PM   
sunshinemiss


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Status: offline 		Wow.

Man, you would love my class. I give them the rubric. "Here, this is what you will be tested on. If you do this, you get ten points. You do that, you get 7." My students know EXACTLY what they are tested upon, and they have no problem following it. I speifically have an assignment every semester that is a creative assignment. These are ASIANS - the ones who follow Confucian methods of learning in which regurgitation is the ONLY thing they know. The assignment I give them is hugely challenging for them (and somewhat controversial, by the way - people who write the academic books have approached me to help them with getting students proactive in creative projects. I tell them - give them guidelines and let them fly and then be consistent.). Even with the creativity piece, there are rules (uses more than one color / material / method). They can do anything! Poster, sculpture, video, Every semester they blow my mind with what they do! I don't always like the creations - they aren't my personal cup of tea - but if they follow the rules, they get the points. The first time someone made a mobile, I just about fell over. BRILLIANT!

I give lengths to their writing assignments, not because of an arbitrary number I pull out of my head, but because I find it works. For lower levels - ten sentences. For higher levels, write for 20 minutes. It takes the "what does the teacher want?" worry away from them. They write once in my classroom, I help them, they learn how easy it can be, and they SUCCEED! If they write on opinion paper, it has to be more than "Cherries are the best fruit. I like them." They have to tell me why. I give them guidelines - Choose 3 of the following to talk about: flavor, nutrition, the way they are grown, recipes, a personal anecdote. It allows the logical students to be logical and the emotional students to be emotional, but it also pushes them to utilize the other side of their brain.

There is a reason for EVERYTHING I do with my students. If they want to know, I'll gladly tell them. If they dispute a grade that I assigned them - which I'm very specific about why they got what they got, I'll listen. Usually, they will get the points. If they have the chutzpah to question me, they deserve the points. For example, one of the pieces of the rubric is "eye contact". If they say to me, "I did look at the audience. I didn't do well on that last time, so I wanted to really focus on it this time. I asked my friends to sit in different places in the room / I looked at this person then that person," etc, I will give them the benefit of the doubt because I can't possible see every time their eyes move. I'm sometimes looking at the scoring sheet and miss where their eyes go. It's a built in method of getting them to talk, of getting them to speak their minds - which is dang hard here. If they talk to me about it, you can bet they will get a few points. It's worth it! I consider it extra credit for spontaneously starting a conversation.

There is NOTHING arbitrary in my class. I look like a goofball in my class. I look like I'm being spontaneous when in fact, I have a very defined lesson set up. What I do is honor the students and where they are. When they are talking about X, I let them go where that leads. When it obviously takes longer, I will cut out some extra fluff I build in. If people understand and zip through a lesson, I'm glad for the fluff.

It's not nonsense. Responses outside the box go FAR with me. Any student who ever felt that I had sucker punched them ... well... I can't even imagine that. Oh wait... there was one time I miscalculated a guy's grade, and assigned him a B when he deserved an A. He questioned me (as he OUGHT!). I went back through my numbers, found the error (MY error), and I wrote a letter to the university, copied his work, took full responsibility for the error, and fixed it. (In my own defense, I was in the hospital during the "fix it" time during which I would normally would have fixed it.).

Teachers are human, we are fallible. But more are honorable professionals working within a difficult system. My university requires every student give an oral presentation. They have forgotten to tell us that most students have NEVER given an oral presentation before. We westerners hadn't even considered that. Initially, grades were low for that - because we were working with false presumptions. I'm sure those students felt sucker punched. We felt awful as soon as we realized. Then we changed how we teach. We taught them HOW to give a presentation. How to make a visual aid, how to engage the audience, how to relax, how to use 3 x 5 cards, etc.

The times students have felt this thing you suggest have been rare circumstances in my experience as a teacher. My students consistently write anonymous notes (a uni requirement) that say they felt supported, able to grasp the material, and they learned.

They don't always like the lessons I teach or the projects I give them, but learning is difficult. It's not supposed to be easy. There are no lazy students in my classroom. Nor is there a mean-spirited, rigid teacher. And that, Edwynn, is how it works.

Again, I am not unique.

best,
sunshine



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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 4:34:09 PM   
Edwynn


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Pardon me if I am taking things too short here, but I take it that you are a professor that takes the good intent and effort of students, and measure that by some understandable and comprehensible yardstick thereby, in furtherance of opening their eyes to the world beyond their little house or village. PLEASE do not take that as any 'belittling' or denigration of any sort. My own study lies with international economics, so your efforts are actully of great concern to me, even with my thusfar limited but ever increasing understanding of affairs in that part of the world.

I was speaking to how things are in 'my own little world,' as it turns out, and I am looking elsewhere to continue the course here, as we speak.

I wish that the few good instructors could have kept me where I am, but this whole "critical thinking" pogrom (as well as program) has seemingly taken over the Uni at many schools, and wish me luck in finding a college that 'hasn't caught up to that yet.'

Whatever the subject, if I delve into it at all, I just want to go into that, on it's own merits. I don't need exogenous abstraction to keep my interest nor to be required to 'understand the importance', etc.

All that is of the first importance to academia, I understand that, but if the purpose be properly understood here, the student just wanting to get through all this and not having the greatest love for humanities or humanities-inspired questions outside of that realm might be taken into consideration here.

One would hope.


But allow me to say again; thanks for all you do, way over there.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/21/2011 4:42:55 PM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 8:09:39 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Edwynn,

What an incredible load of crap.

Feel better?

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 8:28:02 PM   
KMsAngel


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quote:


sunshine


for godsake, though, don't get between asians and drop bears! vicious beasties.

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 8:43:52 PM   
Edwynn


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You are welcome to expound on that.

Have at it, if you can. And good luck.


I apparently hit a delicate nerve there.









< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/21/2011 8:51:18 PM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 9:29:32 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Edwyn, as far as I can tell from reading your deliberately nonclear statement, you seem to believe that assignments should have no value outside of the classroom. Thinking outside the box may not lead to great papers, but it brings new ideas in the real world.

Remember what you've been told. Your A students will be your future colleagues. Your C students will be the ones to endow future chairs and buildings.


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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 10:17:04 PM   
Edwynn


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The lack of clarity is not 'deliberate,' I assure you. It's just how this mind works, as far as that goes.

How's this for 'outside of the box,' ...

"What if the US and Europe and Japan were to cut off all subsidies to the oil and agro-chem industries, and quit starving and killing inhabitants of 'third world' countries in the process?"

I realize that the question above is not nearly to the taste of what passes for 'critical thinking' in academia, but that's what happens when reality comes into play.

quote:


... you seem to believe that assignments should have no value outside of the classroom.



I have in fact been stating quite the opposite; that is, that relevancy actually matters.



















< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/21/2011 10:49:53 PM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/21/2011 10:43:56 PM   
Outlier2


Posts: 258
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline 		To get back to the OP.

PBS did a 1 hour special on the impact of the pill.
In fact it was called The Pill.

I cannot imagine how you missed it since it came up several
times on Google as soon as I started looking for information
about the pill and society.


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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/22/2011 10:34:21 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
You are welcome to expound on that.

Have at it, if you can. And good luck.

I apparently hit a delicate nerve there.

*chuckle*

Well that's pretty self-serving, don't you think? More like rolling my eyes. You sound like a first semester freshman--and clearly you should be over that by now! And I too took those shots when I was an undergrad, believing, as they always do, that I had stumbled upon some revelation that is actually as old as education, each new class "rediscovering" it as a defense against accepting responsibility for their own experience. Expounding here begins with "Hard to know where to start," primarily because far from anything resembling a reasoned argument, you've offered a rambling rant. Not much to be gained by outlining specifics to a wanderer whacking at windmills.

But two things stand out, so I'll address those. The first is your apparent belief that critical thinking is some new pet principle crammed into the curricula arbitrarily. Since Socrates, it's been part and parcel of education--actually, his response to the Sophists, who practiced shoveling rhetoric with the aim of snowing under other positions, without solid reason, as you've done.

Ancient Greek education focused on Gymnasium and "Music," which would be what we would consider Music/Poetry, Astronomy, Geometry, and Mathematics--the study of the harmony of the universe, a kind of "physics/ethics," very much a practical course of study to them (their principles include my architect's work on my new home design). This Quadrivium, supplemented by the medieval Trivium (logic, rhetoric, and grammar--the language arts), became the Seven Liberal Arts--the foundation of the university system in the 12th century. The idea was freeing our minds, behind university walls, from the cultural conditioning that tracked thinking into presented patterns instead of allowing true analysis and evaluation of ideas. And the same is true today--any profession could design a training program that takes less time and money than a college education. Why don't they? A host of skills, starting with critical thinking. Before hired away from it, I was an independent business consultant, and study after study of industry after industry complain of the same two top problems: poor written/oral communication skills, and poor critical thinking. In fact, I've been specifically hired six times to address "when they don't know what to do, they do nothing." I don't go to my mechanics because they've studied everything; I go because when they don't know what they're facing, they are able to think outside of the box to diagnosis and solve the problem. A college graduate, presumably, or at least ideally, carries from a course a study of host of these more generic but crucial skills for the real world. Attention to this is why half my juniors/seniors get internships/jobs while they are still in the course--and all of them get actual real world experience doing real work for real clients (and for which they've frequently won community awards).

The second stand-out point is one I agree with, just not under the misconception noted above. Students come from high school having done a host of subjective "how do you feel about this" assignments. These come not from a critical thinking perspective, but from a well-intentioned but misguided self-esteem movement from the 70s. The result is the indication that all knowledge and analysis is subjective, a mere matter of opinion, when clearly, that would render knowledge arbitrary, personal, and not really needing instruction or guidance. Nor do they build self-esteem, as the unintended message is that "it's OK that you're not good enough to do this...so just share how you feel, and that's fine." Of course, in the real world, that's not fine at all, and real self-esteem would entail helping the student to rise to and successfully meet expectations.

Sunshine's breakdown of how a class works is pretty common; your ranting repudiation is unfounded. Sure, there are teachers less capable than others--in any profession, some practitioners are going to be "below average," to balance the equal number of "above average" professionals in that field (or it wouldn't be the "average"). But surely a college student can--or should be able--to glean the gems from the "just get through it" aspects that happen throughout life. To pretend it's all crap is victimization nonsense, and hardly an attitude that's going to get anyone very far. One of my most hated professors was also a major factor in my early professional success. And no college skill is as important as learning to learn, effectively and continually. Critical thinking and evaluation again.

This is the matter I mentioned in response to the OP. Looking for outside opinions to stretch out a relatively short assignment is defeating the purpose. In fact, the ability to follow the causal consequential links of events is among the problems contributing to short term thinking and embracing simplistic "answers" seen in America and on discussion boards frequently. Comes down to this--getting a degree isn't hard, if that's a student's only goal or motivation. Getting an education is optional, but far more valuable. The choice and the responsibility belong to the student.






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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/22/2011 11:43:19 AM   
Edwynn


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Thanks for the response, though you went to a bit more trouble than was necessary.

Sunshinemiss found her way to a very cogent and pertinant response also, but never dismissing or denigrating my points in the process.

"Rant" would be in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. But I'm guilty of doing the same myself (accusing others of such) here sometimes, so your treatment in that regard should get no complaint here.

In all events, I am certainly not arguing against critical thinking, nor even some devotion to that effort in academia. Implementation, as always, is the 'sticky wicket' here.

To the questions initiated in this and the other similar thread, a thinking mind would immediately ask:

Are we talking about life being frozen in regards to the civil rights  and voting rights acts and court decisions occuring in the 60's, or having a society with no 'pill,' while everything else walks merrily along? Why were these questions just thrown out willy nilly? No thought to anything resembling reality from the outset?

Please don't tell me you can't see the problem and inherent incoherency in that.

As you yourself point out, recent HS grads haven't had the best exposure to real decision making, but I am trying to point out that this might possibly be due to a deficit of r/l situated problems, from this notion that completely unrealistic scenarios are presented to students in service to some one or two English Phd students' (my guess) excellent paper notion of how to promote 'critical thinking.'

Give them something actually realistic to think about, before we assign grades. The real world presents quite enough complexity and perplexity on its own, no need to make things up here.

BTW

Critical thinking has indeed been inherent in the upper education of society for millenia, so why now has it become a 'side car' on its own? Ever think of that?

Sorry, but trying to fix what is broken by way of the latest academic band-aid and new rubric to boot doesn't suffice for justification here.









< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/22/2011 12:40:02 PM >

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/22/2011 1:09:29 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Critical thinking has indeed been inherent in the upper education of society for millenia, so why now has it become a 'side car' on its own?


It hasn't. That was the point.

And thank you for clarifying your post/intent. I appreciate it.

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/22/2011 3:39:50 PM   
MistressRayvyn


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Status: offline 		ouch!! but good point.

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/22/2011 3:59:44 PM   
MistressRayvyn


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quote:

which we do what we can to make education come to life, become real. Sometimes, though, it is just an exercise in "do what I say"... not because I am being power hungry but because I can't possibly explain the motive so they can understand. Sometimes it boils down to: I trained for this. I do research - reading the work of others and original research of my own. You need to trust


@Musicmystery... cringe all you want. It is a requirement to have 5 pages. Usually that is not a problem for me. In fact, I just wrote another paper which was about 19 pages. It was the assignment itself- reaching into the unknown- something I have not had to do since I was 13. I've sadly been involved in much more tangible subjects since then. I'm 29 now. I don't see what people have against me reaching out to get ideas. While they might not be all my ideas I still have to write the paper by myself with added researched citations to back up the points I am making. I'm still doing the work.

Thanks to everyone who didn't mind giving ideas. The paper is done. I enjoyed reading people's personal accounts. I am actually shocked to have gotten so many posts back. Take care.

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/22/2011 4:41:07 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		My mother didn't use the Pill and for the vast majority of my sexually active years, neither did I. Hopefully you have already considered http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_oral_contraceptive_pill#Social_and_cultural_impact

...it was more effective than most previous reversible methods of birth control, giving women unprecedented control over their fertility.[citation needed] Its use was separate from intercourse, requiring no special preparations at the time of sexual activity that might interfere with spontaneity or sensation, and the choice to take the Pill was a private one. This combination of factors served to make the Pill immensely popular within a few years of its introduction.[16][23] Claudia Goldin, among others, argue that this new contraceptive technology was a key player in forming women's modern economic role, in that it prolonged the age at which women first married allowing them to invest in education and other forms of human capital as well as generally become more career-oriented. Soon after the birth control pill was legalized, there was a sharp increase in college attendance and graduation rates for women.[111] From an economic point of view, the birth control pill reduced the cost of staying in school. The ability to control fertility without sacrificing sexual relationships allowed women to make long term educational and career plans.

Because the Pill was so effective, and soon so widespread, it also heightened the debate about the moral and health consequences of pre-marital sex and promiscuity. Never before had sexual activity been so divorced from reproduction. For a couple using the Pill, intercourse became purely an expression of love, or a means of physical pleasure, or both; but it was no longer a means of reproduction. While this was true of previous contraceptives, their relatively high failure rates and their less widespread use failed to emphasize this distinction as clearly as did the Pill. The spread of oral contraceptive use thus led many religious figures and institutions to debate the proper role of sexuality and its relationship to procreation. The Roman Catholic Church in particular, after studying the phenomenon of oral contraceptives, re-emphasized the stated teaching on birth control in the 1968 papal encyclical Humanae Vitae. The encyclical reiterated the established Catholic teaching that artificial contraception distorts the nature and purpose of sex.[112]...

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/23/2011 6:06:15 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressRayvyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss which we do what we can to make education come to life, become real. Sometimes, though, it is just an exercise in "do what I say"... not because I am being power hungry but because I can't possibly explain the motive so they can understand. Sometimes it boils down to: I trained for this. I do research - reading the work of others and original research of my own. You need to trust


@Musicmystery... cringe all you want. It is a requirement to have 5 pages. Usually that is not a problem for me. In fact, I just wrote another paper which was about 19 pages. It was the assignment itself- reaching into the unknown- something I have not had to do since I was 13. I've sadly been involved in much more tangible subjects since then. I'm 29 now. I don't see what people have against me reaching out to get ideas. While they might not be all my ideas I still have to write the paper by myself with added researched citations to back up the points I am making. I'm still doing the work.

Thanks to everyone who didn't mind giving ideas. The paper is done. I enjoyed reading people's personal accounts. I am actually shocked to have gotten so many posts back. Take care.



I'm confused why you quoted me and then you addressed Music Mystery who brought up a completely different point.

best,
sunshine

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/23/2011 6:10:37 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Status: offline 		fr...THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO RESORT TO THE ASPIRIN AND CROWBAR TECHNIQUE, PLACE ASPIRIN BETWEEN YOUR KNEES, SQUEEZE TIGHT AND HIDE THE CB FROM YOUR OWNER..b

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/23/2011 6:16:25 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
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Status: offline 		Bounty, that's a bunch of hogwash, and you know it. You know doggone well people used all manner of other things... loads of condoms, anal sex, oral sex, hand jobs, the rhythm method, coitus interruptus (what a ridiculous but self-explanatory name, imo), circle jerks, etc.

People all over the world use all manner of non-vaginal / non-impregnating methods (certainly not all are fool-proof).

And why you talking to me like that?

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/23/2011 6:19:54 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
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Status: offline 		rhythm method..NOW THATS HOW I BECAME THE FATHER OF 5 GREAT DAUGHTERS SMILE..B

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RE: The Pill- What if it was never invented? - 6/23/2011 6:39:49 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
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Status: offline 		Too bad you didn't know Ron back then. I believe his method may work better than rhythm.

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