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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/23/2011 5:27:39 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Hardly false then.


Exactly false.

That poster stated, "Republicans voted against jobs bills to discourage outsourcing and encourage bringing jobs back to the US"

That is false... the Reps and four Dems voted against a bill (with one Dem not even voting), that was considered a bad bill -- that would hurt jobs -- by The National Association of Manufacturers, The National Foreign Trade Council, and the U.S Chamber of Commerce.  Thus, they didn't vote against "job bills to discourage outsourcing and encourage bringing jobs back to the US", they voted against a job bill that that many considered a job killing bill.

It's unfortunate that America has so weakened it's reputation for building quility products that price has become such an important factor -- and that's why so many American companies go abroad... to save money in order to keep prices low and profits high.  And profits are what's used for research and development, manufacturing, and employee salaries.

Mind you, I don't think it's impossible for America to compete on quality vs. price, as Mercedes, BMW, and others do (thus allowing less reliance on overseas jobs to keep pricing low), but it's not something that'll happen overnight... and certainly not something that higher taxes on business will accomplish during one of the worst economic downturns in American history.

As to the Bill?  Put in BDSM terms (with the Government being the Dom in this scenario) it's akin to a difference of punishing (higher taxes) vs. rewarding (incentives).  So to be clear, I'm all in favor of returning manufacturing to the good ol' USA... but I think it needs to be done with incentives, not punishment.





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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/23/2011 5:42:25 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		The problem there is that incentives are achieving fuck all, and you've had thirty years of governments who are terrified to try punishments to see if they work any better.

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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/23/2011 5:57:08 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The problem there is that incentives are achieving fuck all...



Can you elaborate on that a bit... what "incentives", for example?

Thanks.



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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 7:36:03 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Truely and exactly false.  The dissent coming from KMPG Outsourcing guy (I know a great deal about outsourcing to india in IT and the part KMPG plays in it)  Gutless fucking republicans cant even stand up and spin for themselves here. 



"The proposed bill was going to penalise companies that outsourced and incentivised those that don't go through tax breaks. But, the proposed tax breaks would not have matched the quantum of savings outsourcing provides. Hence, the companies won't see any sense at all"



uh, cant the fuckin republicans who voted no (41 of 42 one not voting) offer up an amendment that would raise the fucking tax to prohibitive?  Not one of thes 42 fuckers?




"Replacing a job that is based in another country with a US-based job does not stimulate economic growth or enhance the competitiveness of American worldwide companies. The bill would also significantly curtail deferral, reversing long-standing tax policy and subjecting American worldwide companies to immediate double taxation on the earnings of their foreign subsidiaries"




And one wonders how the double taxation would occur.  Citations?  But if it occurred wouldnt that have the effect of negating the paragraph above this, that he just said?

This is spin, I mean any reasonable thinking person would read this, say; this doesn't make any fucking sense at all it is a specious and circular argument that he finally admits would effect exactly what we want.

A tarriff of sorts to keep these jobs in america.  Something that the republican party was founded on, but EVERY foundation of the republican party is being thrown under the bus these days. So that they may worship the military-industrial complex and sell us down river, fucking quislings they are.   


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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 9:25:08 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


Once again... EXACTLYFALSE.

That poster stated, "Republicans voted against jobs bills to discourage outsourcing and encourage bringing jobs back to the US"

That is false... the Reps and four Dems voted against a bill (with one Dem not even voting), that was considered a bad bill -- that would hurt jobs -- by The National Association of Manufacturers, The National Foreign Trade Council, and the U.S Chamber of Commerce.  Thus, they didn't vote against "job bills to discourage outsourcing and encourage bringing jobs back to the US", they voted against what many considered a job killing bill.

Your entire rant was nothing but "spin", and all leading back to the typically business-ignorant solution of "RAISE TAXES!!!"  Your great solution of "rasing taxes" during a recession proves how little you actually know about business and job creation -- and the reason why (i) The National Association of Manufacturers, (ii) The National Foreign Trade Council, and the (iii) U.S Chamber of Commerce were against it.  Any "reasonable, thinking person" would know that "raising taxes" (especially during a recession) is a JOB KILLER!!!  You'd know that if you had any business sense whatsoever.  What you and those of your ilk have contiinually FAILED to understand is Government is the PROBLEM, not the solution.  You can "spin" as much as you like about... grumble, grumble, grumle... those evil Republicans... grumble, grumble, grumble... but you only show how little you actually know about business and job creation.

American companies outsource to other countries for ONE simple reason -- it's CHEAPER.  Period.  Remove that option via rasing taxes, and guess what... American companies WON'T be able to compete on the SAME playing field as other countries WHO ARE DOING THE SAME THING.  Got that?!!  Our products become MORE EXPENSIVE, sales FALL, profits SINK, research and development STOP, people get LAID OFF, companies SHUT DOWN, and people like you cluelessly wonder "Where are all the jobs?!!"  Here's your answer... YOU TAXED/FORCED THEM AWAY!!!

Not that I expect you to actually comprehend any of this "Business 101" stuff, but thankfully the "reasonable" and "thinking" people at (i) The National Association of Manufacturers, and (ii) U.S Chamber of Commerce, for example, did.





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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 9:41:52 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Once again exactly false.  They voted against a bill that would raise taxation for  companies outsourcing operations.

If they are overseas, there are no jobs to shut down here. Look the fuck around you.

The US Chamber of Commerce, The National Association of Manufacturers and the National Foreign Trade Council have added how many jobs to the economy, republicans are their sock puppets.

The Manufacturing sector of our economy is growning faster than Chinas.  Check it out, it has been in the news.

I agree that government is the problem, the Corporations need to be unshackled from their special status and privilege, their special loopholes and laws, and live the american dream like the rest of us.

I don't think you comprehend anymore of business than any particular strain of amoeba, but like an itinerant insurance peddler around here said, all the doctors are going to puerto rico, and when they didnt, he treated us to another brand of his special wisdom.

If the case is that raising taxes and government regulation is so fuckin onerous to business that they will move out of country, why are the top states in the US that have the bulk fortune 500 headquarters heavily taxing states and heavily regulated states?

If the case that lower taxes are amenable to companies, why arent they hiring on?  Why aren't they producing?   Why are they sitting on cash?  

Why is Toledo selling their land to Chinese developers with absolutely no consessions, no tax breaks and no guarentees?

If the case is that people can work cheaper and make shoddy goods overseas and they can sell that shit here, then send those corporations overseas, lock stock and barrel, because the corporation felching republicans when we get done with this round of corporate appeasement, just like the last, will entertain and champion another round of appeasment.  Where does it stop?  The CEOs walk away with millions in salary, billions in bonus, and  what good is there for the United States of America in this?

Throw republican founding principles under the bus. We have begun in earnest a long road to corporate slavery with republicans as our overseers.  

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 6/24/2011 9:52:13 AM >

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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:09:54 AM   
errantgeek


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Status: offline 		Do dee doo...

So, I totally googled Obama deportation and stuff, and guess what?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/0812/Obama-as-border-cop-He-s-deported-record-numbers-of-illegal-immigrants

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html

He's doing a better job of it than the last few guys, and it doesn't even involve carloads of white supremacists driving around the border with guns looking to shoot minorities. Weird, huh?

< Message edited by errantgeek -- 6/24/2011 10:11:16 AM >

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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:15:36 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

They voted against a bill that would raise taxation for companies outsourcing operations.



Yes... and that's why it's a JOB KILLER, why the (i) National Association of Manufacturers, and (ii) U.S Chamber of Commerce, for example, were against it, and why the poster's comment (as well as yours) is FALSE.

Your failing to understand the most basic business concepts is your own.



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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:26:24 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Exactly false.
That poster stated, "Republicans voted against jobs bills to discourage outsourcing and encourage bringing jobs back to the US"


I agree, the above statement is EXACTLY FALSE... Republicans vote in a manner which always leaves the outsourcing option WIDE OPEN.
  Because they're told to by the corporations that own them.


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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:30:25 AM   
SternSkipper


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Yes... and that's why it's a JOB KILLER, why the (i) National Association of Manufacturers, and (ii) U.S Chamber of Commerce


Both Featured Prominently in Republican ads in the past two years.

I was actually grateful, since I was getting HIT UP for a local membership when the ads first aired, and I was able to tell them to screw and get their PAC money off some other poor slob.



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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:32:19 AM   
SternSkipper


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He's doing a better job of it than the last few guys, and it doesn't even involve carloads of white supremacists driving around the border with guns looking to shoot minorities. Weird, huh?


Careful... you'll have em tearing up over brighter days gone by


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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:42:08 AM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

Careful... you'll have em tearing up over brighter days gone by


Or jerking off. Probably both. :)

That said, it amazes me that for the calling themselves party of "fiscal responsibility, business and economic knowhow" this current pack of loons is willfully ignorant the best way to enforce immigration and labor policy is to, you know, investigate companies' suspected of hiring undocumented workers accounting records for discrepancies which is more or less what ICE has been doing during the Obama administration as far as I know, and it works. Hell, the Bush administration after seven and a half years caught onto it and managed to pick up their successful conviction and deportation rates while cloaking it under a veil of cowboy enforcement.

Then again, this is also the party which openly supports and participates in regulatory capture, regressive tort policy and the suppression of citizen suits (tangent: I know I said it in the Wal-Mart thread, but seriously, fuck Chevron), so I hardly know why this is even facepalm worthy to me.

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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:47:05 AM   
SternSkipper


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The US Chamber of Commerce


When I was approached by the local Chamber sales rep, he started to let loose with their political ideology as soon as I gave a false response to the question "So ______, Are you a member of the local Lion's Club? They're probably the folks who referred me. They usually do that when a new member comes in" ... And in fairness, I was considering joining as a business networking move, until I found out the only time you'll ever run into an independent or democrat, is if they hire a stripper.
  Anyway, this guy went into a huge pitch about how Obama was ruining the country, and how he was pushing socialism upon the country and how it was up to the "American Businessman" to put a stop to it. he also said they were planning extensive ads to promote conservatives in the coming election cycle.
   To me, it's almost criminal that an organization there is actually PRESSURE on the small business man to join. And when I told the rep that I wasn't interested, he said "Well you know _____, if someone lodges a complaint report with us, it's much easier to adjudicate if you're a member" implying almost court-like jurisdiction over the small business community.
    I told him, "Please, go ahead and blackball me, I'd love to see you guys in a courtroom after what you've told me today".
The BBB is a shitbag extortion outfit, no better than your local mafia.



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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:49:24 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		No, there is no misunderstanding, corporate interests and their sockpuppets are not anything but myopic and solely concerned with their well being.

Not false.  I understand your spin and disagreement, and you guys can appease the corporate owners all you want, but the american people.

We cannot keep appeasing corporate interests in this country over the will of the people.


Look where are the fucking jobs?  They got the breaks you said they needed for jobs.  Where the fuck are the jobs.?  Your appeasments are bankrupt. They dont fucking work because these corporations believe they are immune to the society they feed on, and you keep bending over and graping for them.

Hey, if you have to buy better quality and pay for it and can only get goods in America, made in america...and there are no jobs, just like there are no jobs now, what is the difference? 

Where are the jobs from extending the tax cuts, from waivering the healthcare, from allowing corporations unlimited spending to politicians, from unlimited lobbying to politicians?

Your appeasement of these corporations is bankrupt in its ideology, you must continue to zero to appease them until they own you.    

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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:51:54 AM   
SternSkipper


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That said, it amazes me that for the calling themselves party of "fiscal responsibility, business and economic knowhow" this current pack of loons is willfully ignorant the best way to enforce immigration and labor policy is to, you know, investigate companies' suspected of hiring undocumented workers accounting records for discrepancies


It's been quite a while, like maybe 4 years, but last time I was in Brownsville Texas, there were billboards up showing the route via the highway system to Tyson Chicken plants in NC indicating there were jobs there.
    I suppose the tyson's just heard everybody inb Brownsville could cut a mean filet.


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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:54:08 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No, there is no misunderstanding, corporate interests and their sockpuppets are not anything but myopic and solely concerned with their well being.



Just as you are.  Profits = Jobs = Income = Happy People... fucking shocking!!!



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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 10:56:03 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		And when they are unshackled from thier special privilege, they should be as deleriously happy to live the american dream as we are, and take their place in the citizenry and wellbeing of the United States of America.

If you are for the first, then how can you be against this?

Profits = Jobs = Income = Happy People.

we got profits we got some happy people.

lets do it all and let them in on the american dream that has been given us, and America will be fucking shocked and awed. 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 6/24/2011 10:57:59 AM >

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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 11:10:19 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If you are for the first, then how can you be against this?



I'm "the first" what???


quote:


Profits = Jobs = Income = Happy People.

we got profits we got some happy people.


Yes, and we could use more... a LOT more!!!

quote:


...lets do it all and let them in on the american dream that has been given us, and America will be fucking shocked and awed. 


I don't know what you mean by "all"... ???  Of course I'm in favor of EVERYBODY realizing "The American Dream", but I'm also realistic enough to know not everybody can or will.  I'd love to have Bill Gates' money... but I never will.  I'd love for every last person to be making six-figures, but it'll never happen.  I'm also in favor of rewarding the job creators, and not penalizing them for trying to complete on the SAME playing field as other companies -- and that means PRICE is going to be a factor.

There are essentially two BASIC ways to compete (i.e., the Value Proposition) -- price or quality.  America has lost much of its standing on quality (e.g., "Made in America" doesn't carry much weight anymore), so like others, we have to compete on price -- which leads to outsourcing.






< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 6/24/2011 11:11:00 AM >

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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 11:13:31 AM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

It's been quite a while, like maybe 4 years, but last time I was in Brownsville Texas, there were billboards up showing the route via the highway system to Tyson Chicken plants in NC indicating there were jobs there.
    I suppose the tyson's just heard everybody inb Brownsville could cut a mean filet.


Ha. There's actually a Tyson processing plant near where I live, they love their undocumented labor and ast I heard, it's still a low-hanging fruit for ICE around here. It's not surprising at all they'd advertise along the border and elsewhere, since they feed heavily off migratory laborers.

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RE: As if we needed another reason to vote against Obama. - 6/24/2011 12:57:47 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: errantgeek

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

It's been quite a while, like maybe 4 years, but last time I was in Brownsville Texas, there were billboards up showing the route via the highway system to Tyson Chicken plants in NC indicating there were jobs there.
    I suppose the tyson's just heard everybody inb Brownsville could cut a mean filet.


Ha. There's actually a Tyson processing plant near where I live, they love their undocumented labor and ast I heard, it's still a low-hanging fruit for ICE around here. It's not surprising at all they'd advertise along the border and elsewhere, since they feed heavily off migratory laborers.


good, then follow in Alabama and Arizona's footsteps and fine the shit out of them

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