RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/2/2011 6:35:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I can't wait to start placing all of these murderers behind bars where they belong.

You work out, don't eat right, drink, do drugs or don't stop working during your pregnancy and lose your child because of it..You are a murderer and need to spend the rest of your life behind bars.


What I have serious issues with is the lack of any sort of caring about ciggie smoking mommas. I quit smoking when I found out I was pregnant. Tobacco has been linked with SIDs for crying out loud, more so than cocaine! Notice something here, there are two cigarette smokers on this thread that are upset over cocaine use while pregnant when nicotine does the same damage, perhaps worse because most cigarette smokers are usually doing it 24-7 and not all cocaine users are constantly on cocaine.





juliaoceania -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/2/2011 6:36:18 PM)

quote:

Tazzy, I was struck by your description of your frustration and sense of helplessness when dealing with some drug-taking mothers-to-be


I would be too, if the solutions offered weren't going to make more of the same, or perhaps worse.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions




tazzygirl -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/2/2011 10:17:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I can't wait to start placing all of these murderers behind bars where they belong.

You work out, don't eat right, drink, do drugs or don't stop working during your pregnancy and lose your child because of it..You are a murderer and need to spend the rest of your life behind bars.


What I have serious issues with is the lack of any sort of caring about ciggie smoking mommas. I quit smoking when I found out I was pregnant. Tobacco has been linked with SIDs for crying out loud, more so than cocaine! Notice something here, there are two cigarette smokers on this thread that are upset over cocaine use while pregnant when nicotine does the same damage, perhaps worse because most cigarette smokers are usually doing it 24-7 and not all cocaine users are constantly on cocaine.




And I addressed that.

You keep avoiding the questions posed to you, julia.




tazzygirl -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/2/2011 10:50:03 PM)

quote:

What I have serious issues with is the lack of any sort of caring about ciggie smoking mommas. I quit smoking when I found out I was pregnant. Tobacco has been linked with SIDs for crying out loud, more so than cocaine! Notice something here, there are two cigarette smokers on this thread that are upset over cocaine use while pregnant when nicotine does the same damage, perhaps worse because most cigarette smokers are usually doing it 24-7 and not all cocaine users are constantly on cocaine.


The facts dont bear out your assertion, julia.

Causes
By Mayo Clinic staff

A combination of physical and sleep environmental factors can make an infant more vulnerable to SIDS. These factors may vary from child to child.

Physical factors

Physical factors associated with SIDS include:

Brain abnormalities.

Some infants are born with problems that make them more likely to die of SIDS. In many of these babies, the portion of the brain that controls breathing and arousal from sleep doesn't work properly.

Low birth weight.

Premature birth or being part of a multiple birth increases the likelihood that a baby's brain hasn't matured completely, so he or she has less reliable control over such automatic processes as breathing and heart rate.

Respiratory infection.

Many infants who have died of SIDS have recently experienced a cold, which may contribute to breathing problems.

Sleep environmental factors

The items in a baby's crib and his or her sleeping position can combine with a baby's physical problems to increase the risk of SIDS. Examples include:

Sleeping on the stomach or side.

Babies who are placed on their stomachs or sides to sleep may have more difficulty breathing than those placed on their backs.

Sleeping on a soft surface.

Lying face down on a fluffy comforter or a waterbed can block an infant's airway. Draping a blanket over a baby's head is also risky.

Sleeping with parents.

While the risk of SIDS is lowered if an infant sleeps in the same room as his or her parents, the risk increases if the baby sleeps in the same bed — partly because there are more soft surfaces to impair breathing.

Risk factors
By Mayo Clinic staff

Although sudden infant death syndrome can strike any infant, researchers have identified several factors that may increase a baby's risk. They include:

Sex. Boy babies are more likely to die of SIDS.

Age. Infants are most vulnerable during the second and third months of life.

Race. For reasons that aren't well understood, black, American Indian or Eskimo infants are more likely to develop SIDS.

Family history. Babies who've had siblings or cousins die of SIDS are at higher risk of SIDS themselves.

Maternal risk factors
The risk of SIDS is also affected by maternal factors associated with the pregnancy, including:

Mother under the age of 20
Smoking cigarettes
Drug or alcohol use
Inadequate prenatal care


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sudden-infant-death-syndrome/DS00145/DSECTION=risk-factors

Past studies have identified various risk factors for SIDS, such as putting babies to sleep on their stomachs, but until now there has been little understanding of SIDS's biologic basis. The new insights came about thanks to brain autopsy specimens from infants who had died from SIDS; specifically, the lowest part of the brainstem, known as the medulla oblongata, which controls breathing, blood pressure and body heat. The researchers say they found abnormalities in serotonin levels there, a chemical that transmits messages from one nerve cell to another.

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20060931195901data_trunc_sys.shtml


Causes, incidence, and risk factors

SIDS rates have dropped dramatically since 1992, when parents were first told to put babies to sleep on their backs or sides to reduce the likelihood of SIDS. Unfortunately, SIDS remains a significant cause of death in infants under one year old. Thousands of babies die of SIDS in the United States each year.

The cause of SIDS is unknown, although there are several theories. Many doctors and researchers now believe that SIDS is not a single condition that is always caused by the same medical problems, but infant death caused by several different factors.

These factors may include problems with sleep arousal or an inability to sense a build-up of carbon dioxide in the blood. Almost all SIDS deaths occur without any warning or symptoms when the infant is thought to be sleeping.

SIDS is most likely to occur between 2 and 4 months of age, and 90% occur by 6 months of age. It occurs more often in winter months, with the peak in January. There is also a greater rate of SIDS among Native and African Americans.

The following have been linked to an increased risk of SIDS:

Babies who sleep on their stomachs

Babies who are around cigarette smoke while in the womb or after being born

Babies who sleep in the same bed as their parents

Babies who have soft bedding in the crib

Multiple birth babies (being a twin, triplet, etc.)

Premature babies

Babies who have a brother or sister who had SIDS

Mothers who smoke or use illegal drugs

Teen mothers

Short time period between pregnancies

Late or no prenatal care

Situations of poverty

SIDS affects boys more often than girls. While studies show that babies with the above risk factors are more likely to be affected, the impact or importance of each factor is not well-defined or understood.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002533/




LafayetteLady -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/2/2011 11:54:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

If the option is treatment or jail... and they wish to quit... why would they go into hiding?


We have women being tried for something they did while pregnant. Other pregnant women who maybe trying to quit and may want to seek rehab might think "If I do that will be like admitting I did drugs, and that means if something happens to this baby I will be tried for murder". If I were such a woman I would just continue to try to stop on my own.


Are you really this dense or do you have such tunnel vision you can't see beyond your own views and words of people who agree with you?

Tazzy and I have stated over and over and over again that the "treatment or jail" (as Tazzy put it), would have provisions for women who seek treatment that protects them from prosecution. This makes your statement above irrelevant. It also shows how you don't pay attention.


quote:


quote:

I have to say that a woman who wants to quit will find a way to quit. I have had many ask my advice, where to go, how to get help, worried about jail. The social workers I have worked with all, without exception, were willing to go to bat for these girls, find them treatment homes and help them with their issues.

But, they have listened to people who will tell them not to say a word about their addictions because it will land them in jail.


And when the government starts putting these women in jail, it confirms that perception. In fact they will just quit asking you as a healthcare worker, because if the fetus gets rights you will become court mandated to report. healthcare workers are mandated to report not only crimes against children, but they are mandated to report suspected domestic violence.

It is very weird to me that a certain way of doing things doesn't work, so people continue on that same path.


And you are one of those people! You are sure, without a single piece of factual data, that women will run underground. Why? Because that is what every feminist/women's rights/pro-choice group is screaming. Not one of them presents any evidence that shows that.

You know why I have no respect for you and talk down to you? Because you can't seem to see past the end of your nose. These women are being prosecuted for something they did while pregnant, yes. But those things resulted in the death of their children. There is no doubt that Kimbrough's actions caused her child's death. So much so, that she plead guilty. Add to that the fact that her child lived for 19 minutes. What about his rights then? By all of your accounts, he was out of the womb, so his "personhood" was no longer in question. There is no question that Shuai's taking rat poison caused the death of her child, who was born after more than 30 weeks and lived for 4 days. Doesn't that child have rights? With Gibbs, she didn't seek treatment at all. She just continued to do drugs with reckless abandon, knowing that what she was doing could potentially result in the death of the child she was carrying. She did enough drugs that her child was stillborn.

quote:


Now, I know LL doesn't want to deal with the fact that two of the most dangerous substances harm babies all of the time and are legal (tobacco and alcohol) but the fact remains that we are not locking women up for doing these things while pregnant. That is a shitload of hypocrisy. The fraction of women you want to hang up on a flagpole and use as a pinata is very small... I know this thread is not about FAS or tobacco, but the amount of damaged children brought into the world because of these two drugs is very large. Your outrage seems selective to me. I have seen kids of smokers struggle with asthma their entire life... my sister struggles with asthma as an adult child of smokers.... the things that you say cocaine does is because it constricts the vascular system of the infant and it creates a small placenta because it is a stimulant. The same is true for nicotine.... You complained about the rat poison baby, yet nicotine is a plant poison. 1000s of babies are born to smoking mothers every year. It is a knowable preventable risk for babies.


WRONG! First I have pointed out that neither of those two things relate to the OP. Second, yes, some of those women have been locked up. They haven't been locked up for murder because their babies aren't dead. Dead babies and living damaged babies aren't the same thing. The amount of damaged children is large? Really? How many cases? You are so fond of posting links, yet you didn't bother here. Why not? Because you know you are speculating. I'm glad that the number of women whose behavior during pregnancy has directly resulted in their baby's death is small. That means it isn't a HUGE problem and that a good number of women must be doing something right. For you to say that there are LARGE numbers of damaged children brought into the world by smoking and alcohol, that number would have to be higher than 5% of ALL live births in a year. In fact, FAS occurs in 1/3 of women who are chronic alcholics. Now I'm not going to say that means nothing, but I am going to say that less than the majority of children born to alcoholics suffer from FAS, which means that a much smaller percentage would account for ALL births. Approximately 12,000 babies are born with FAS each year. FOUR MILLION babies are born each year. What percent is that? .003% Would you really call that large?

Before you get back on your high horse with only three legs, let me say that I believe that one baby is too many. The point is that I'm not going to say it is a "large" number.

quote:


We have run out of jail space in my state. They are letting people go. We have decriminalized pot, here, and the rest of the country realizes we can't afford the war on drugs. The women you want to lock up are casualties of the war of drugs and the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill. Their babies are the wounded and dying. The war failed.


Do you wonder why you have run out of jail space in your state? California is well known for being more liberal than other places, yet their prisons are more full? Doesn't sound like your state has figured out much of anything.

Drug addicts are "casualties of the war on drugs" as well. Should addicts who commit crimes being given a free pass? I asked you that before and you still haven't answered. It seems you want to grant "special" rights to pregnant drug addicts. As for saying that this one woman is the result of the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill is stretching it so far, you could reach across the Pacific Ocean all the way to the UK. One woman, with situational depression does not equal the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill as a whole.

You obviously have your own agenda and beliefs as to what is wrong with society. Your theories, however, are so far off base and unsupported, you aren't going to get far with them.


The political agenda behind this is so clear.... the Right Wing never attack cigarettes or alcohol, it is all about the War on Drugs and giving the preborn rights.....


The political agenda hear is not so clear. It is clear in your mind, and it is definately clear in the women's rights organizations. But those groups also have their own agenda and will stretch the truth as much as the other side to attempt to make their point.





LafayetteLady -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 12:01:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I've been objecting to legal involvement as the first and only option, which appears to be the case in the OP. I think I've stated that enough times by now for my position to be clear. I'm also arguing that the primary area that we ought to look to to resolve issues such as this is health and social policy.



There is not one thread of evidence that legal involvement was the "first and only option" being explored. We will never know what the result would be had any of these women sought help for their problems. At least with Gibbs and Shuai that is the case. With Kimbrough, she wasn't a drug addict, didn't do meth any other time during her pregnancy and had four other children at home. Something stinks on that one, and it stank enough that the woman accepted a plea.

The problem, again, is that a woman needs to seek treatment for any health and social policy to work. I believe that given someone seeking help, they should be immune from prosecution. But when a woman doesn't take steps to get treatment, sorry, accountability has to be in place. I don't think we need special "depraved heart" laws to accomplish that either. I do, however, believe that when you know your actions may result in the death of someone else, you have wantonly committed murder when that death occurs.




tazzygirl -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 12:07:50 AM)

quote:

With Kimbrough, she wasn't a drug addict, didn't do meth any other time during her pregnancy and had four other children at home. Something stinks on that one, and it stank enough that the woman accepted a plea.


Yeah, I thought the same.... she entered a plea... the court accepted the plea... and now they are fighting the conviction. What did her new lawyer turn up that the old one didnt? Or maybe the new one found out what the smell was coming from.




LafayetteLady -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 12:18:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

One last thing, reporting a baby with drugs in its system for removal from the mother's care by the state is far different than collecting evidence of a crime. If we criminalize this behavior every baby with a positive tox screen could lead to the prosecution of their mothers for attempted murder... this is the path we are traveling.

Get ready for a wave of sickly damaged infants being born in crackhouses[8|]


Yes, it is much different. The state doesn't remove dead babies. So when the tox screen is positive at autopsy, an investigation into the death will and should occur. Your lack of understanding of the law shines through again. A positive tox screen on a living baby will hold its own penalties. It will result in a child abuse charge.

quote:


I couldnt agree more. Lets lock them all up. If a woman cleans a litter box, lets lock her up too, she could have given her baby toxoplasmosis. Or should we wait to see if the baby really caught it? I smoke. Before I discovered I was pregnant, I smoked a pack a day. There were no patches, no pills when I was pregnant. The smell alone made me sick. But I had to have my two cigarettes a day. Could not let go of them. And, yep, my son had low birth weight and height at 7 lbs 13 ounces and 22 inches long. And, recall, when I had my son, hospitals still allowed smoking in patient's rooms.


I admit it, I smoke too, and smoked while pregnant with my son. I had the opposite occur. Premature? He was a week late. Low birth weight? If my smoking lowered his birth weight, that's great since he was 9lbs. 14oz. Birth height? I don't remember exactly, but he was in the 98 percentile. Oh, and he doesn't have any respiratory problems either. In fact, during his first two years of life, the only health problem he had was an ear infection that was caused by teething. To this day, he has never had an upper respiratory infection. He hasn't done well in school, but then again, his father wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed (literally, his father has an IQ of 74. Don't ever marry for looks).

quote:


Notice something here, there are two cigarette smokers on this thread that are upset over cocaine use while pregnant when nicotine does the same damage, perhaps worse because most cigarette smokers are usually doing it 24-7 and not all cocaine users are constantly on cocaine.


Yet we have healthy, grown children. The cocaine user that is the subject of the OP is dead. Do you think you could get off your personal agenda soapbox and figure out the difference?

Its obvious you want to further your own personal crusade where smokers are punished for everything, while drug addicts deserve everyone's sympathy because the system has failed them.

How many times a day does someone call you a bleeding heart, while shaking their head and laughing at your unsupported statements? Can you count that high?




LafayetteLady -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 12:23:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

With Kimbrough, she wasn't a drug addict, didn't do meth any other time during her pregnancy and had four other children at home. Something stinks on that one, and it stank enough that the woman accepted a plea.


Yeah, I thought the same.... she entered a plea... the court accepted the plea... and now they are fighting the conviction. What did her new lawyer turn up that the old one didnt? Or maybe the new one found out what the smell was coming from.


They are appealing on the grounds that the charge never should have been brought and the law used is a violation of her rights. That is from memory, I didn't go back and find the article. At the moment it is 3:30 in the morning here, so my memory may be off.

The prosecution is confident that the appeal will be rejected. If my memory of why they are appealing is correct, they didn't argue at the Superior Court level most likely because they want to overturn the law and judges at that level aren't too keen on the idea of setting precedent, they prefer to follow it.




LafayetteLady -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 12:26:00 AM)

ETA: Double post.


Damn computer!




tazzygirl -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 12:48:06 AM)

http://sids-network.org/experts/smoking.htm

Cigarette Smoking And SIDS

The manner in which the press has reported the Fleming Smoking Study and the success of the Back to Sleep Campaign, troubles my wife and I a great deal. The Los Angeles Times gave the Fleming study page one play in its July 26th edition, prompting the response I submitted in a letter to the editor published August 2nd. What follows is the letter, as it was printed by The Times:
Sudden Infant Death Syndrome

Re: "Smoke Makes SIDS Risks Soar, Study Finds"

Recent reports of research studies on sudden infant death syndrome conducted in the United States and Britain hailing the success of the "Back to Sleep" campaigns in reducing the SIDS death rate (placing the baby on its back rather than on its stomach) and linking smoking and other environmental factors to an increased "risk" for SIDS seem to underplay or leave out entirely the most fundamental point about the status of SIDS research efforts:

Researchers don't know what causes this leading killer of babies between two weeks and one year. Because the underlying causes of SIDS remain unknown, all newborn infants are potentially at risk for SIDS.

Babies placed on their backs to sleep still die of SIDS. Babies not exposed to cigarette smoke still die of SIDS. Babies who are breast fed, who have had wonderful prenatal care, who were full term and of normal birth weight, who have parents who have not abused drugs, in short, who have no known risk factors, still die from SIDS.

As the result of the way these research studies are presented, the public may come to view SIDS as somehow "preventable" if we simply alter the child's environment. Of even greater concern to me is the effect of these reports on families who have lost a child to SIDS, and they still number around 500 a year in California, and between 4,500 and 5,000 nationally.

The last thing we need to do to parents who suffer this tragedy is stigmatize or marginalize them. The simple truth is that SIDS can, and does, claim any baby, in spite of parents doing "everything right."

Barry S. Brokaw
SIDS Alliance Board of Directors
Sacramento, CA

A number of people have asked for some commentary on the "British Smoking Study" performed by Professor Peter Fleming in the United Kingdom. It is with some trepidation that I do so, because this is obviously a touchy subject. However, let me try to put this into perspective.

First, as to Professor Fleming's credentials as a researcher, he is outstanding. He and I trained together at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto many years ago. Therefore, I have known him for quite some time. He has had excellent research training, and continues to perform the highest quality of research in his own right. For the past several years, he has established probably the best controlled and most accurate study of infant mortality (including SIDS) in the world. Some of the initial work on the effect of prone sleeping and SIDS, as well as the possibility of overheating being a factor, came from his initial work. He told me that he originally did not believe that sleeping position would have an effect on SIDS, but he included questions on this in his initial study "to end discussion on this issue". As we all know, his studies, and others, have suggested that prone sleeping is associated with a higher risk.

I believe it was this work which prompted Professor Fleming to look for other "potentially modifiable risk factors". From a classical medical point of view, this is the strategy which is likely to have the greatest benefit. If one researches potential causes which can not be removed or altered, then it is less likely that the study will have an impact. Thus, Professor Fleming specifically has chosen to look at factors which one could potentially eliminate, such as changing sleeping position or stopping smoking.

In Avon, England, where Professor Fleming performs his studies, prone sleeping has nearly been eliminated. In the absence of prone sleeping, parental cigarette smoking has emerged as the next greatest risk factor for SIDS. His data, which were also presented at the Fourth SIDS International Conference, show a highly significant relationship. Therefore, I believe we must conclude that his findings are real.

What does this mean? Clearly, Professor Fleming is not saying that cigarette smoking is the cause of SIDS. Like with prone sleeping, babies of families where there has been no cigarette smoking continue to die from SIDS, and most babies born into families where one or both parents smoke will not die. So, cigarette smoking is not the cause of SIDS. However, there are two implications of this work:

1) If families can eliminate cigarette smoking during and after pregnancy, the SIDS RISK for that baby is decreased. Therefore, it does give rise to something parents might want to do to try and optimize their chances.

2) Perhaps more important, SIDS risk factors are not CAUSES of SIDS, but they are scientific CLUES to the cause of SIDS. As researchers, we need to think about why cigarette smoking is associated with an increased risk. This line of investigation may lead us to a better understanding of the mechanism of SIDS, and ultimately to learning its cause.

Having personally spoken with Peter Fleming at the Fourth SIDS International Conference about this issue, I know that he also believes that an important implication of this work is that it might lead to an understanding of SIDS. In fact, the "Developmental Physiology Working Party" of the Global Strategy Task Force (which met for 2-days right after the International Conference), set an understanding of the physiologic basis of these risk factors as its highest research priority. Peter Fleming and I were both members of that group.

I think that much of the reaction on this Listserver was due to the media coverage of this research study. I can only say, in my experience of being interviewed by several reporters about SIDS over the years, that reporters are always looking for a "sensational" angle for a story on SIDS. They are not very enthusiastic about printing that SIDS occurs and nothing can be done about it. Therefore, they tend to sensationalize research results, making them sound more significant than they might be. While it would be desirable to change this practice, I don't think we will have much luck at it.

I am not sure where this discussion leaves most of you SIDS parents. I hope it has been a helpful clarification. I would be happy to address additional issues or answer questions (If I can).

Thank you very much.

Tom Keens
Children's Hospital Los Angeles

In response to a question about whether toxins from cigarette smoking could be detected at autopsy in a SIDS baby:

I don't think so. There is one substance, cotinine, which is sometimes analyzed, usually in research studies, to assess the amount of active cigarette smoking one has done. I do not know if this is sensitive enough to be elevated in passive cigarette smoking. Also, this is not a substance which, in and of itself, is toxic or dangerous. Therefore, I expect that very few, if any, Coroners would measure it. Even if they did, the significance of an elevated cotinine would only be that the baby had been exposed to some cigarette smoke. It would say nothing about if or how that might have contributed to the death. Tom Keens
Children's Hospital Los Angeles






Canaille -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 2:32:07 AM)

Fast reply, because after ten pages of this, my eyes started to cross.

As a mother, I want to throttle the women that took the responsibilities of being a mother so lightly. Before I found out that I was pregnant, I drank, smoked, and lit up a joint on a fairly regular basis. The moment I saw that little plus sign, I flushed my cigarettes, gave away my stash, and didn't touch anything stronger than limeade. I also got inadequate prenatal care because I didn't know that I was pregnant until about halfway through. And believe me, that gave me a lot of nightmares until I held a healthy baby in my arms.

As the mother of a daughter.... Throw these cases out. In the cases of drug use, prosecute the drug use. In the case of the suicide attempt, for pete's sake, get that woman some mental help. If these cases are successfully prosecuted, then that is the beginning of state-mandated behavior for the mother during the pregnancy. Look beyond the cigarettes and drugs and alcohol for a minute, please. Successful prosecution in a case like this means that a woman could be prosecuted for any action seen as endangering the well-being of her unborn child. That puts any woman of child-bearing age out of the running for a high-stress career, because stress plays absolute havoc on the human body. Blood pressure alone....

There is diet. Doctors will tell a woman to take this vitamin or that, to load up on these iron pills, to take that brand of stool softener because of the iron pills, and that if they don't do so, they're endangering the well-being of the child. I can only speak for myself, but the iron pills made me so sick that I could barely eat for the two weeks that I was on them, and I finally dumped them in a drawer and did what women have been successfully doing since the first pregnancy. I ate what my body told me to eat. According to my doctor, my choice endangered my daughter. If something had happened to her, a logical (not necessarily rational) extension of these laws would be to prosecute me for not heeding my doctor's advice.

Then there are pre-existing conditions, of which diabetes is a good example. A child born to a mother with diabetes has five times the risk of developing respiratory distress syndrome. Is that woman being irresponsible by choosing to have a child, knowing the potential complications? Will she be considered criminally negligent if her child doesn't respond to treatment and their lungs never fully develop?

Yes, there needs to be more personal responsibility, but personal responsibility doesn't come from the courts, and it can't be enforced by locking up the bad examples. There's never going to be an easy solution to this. I simply cannot agree with the premise that these personal tragedies give the DAs and the courts the right to step in and rule that a pregnant woman loses the right to make really shitty decisions.




juliaoceania -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 6:02:07 AM)

quote:

Yet we have healthy, grown children. The cocaine user that is the subject of the OP is dead. Do you think you could get off your personal agenda soapbox and figure out the difference?

Its obvious you want to further your own personal crusade where smokers are punished for everything, while drug addicts deserve everyone's sympathy because the system has failed them.

How many times a day does someone call you a bleeding heart, while shaking their head and laughing at your unsupported statements? Can you count that high?



My mom had 4 children, two miscarriages. All of us weighed about 5.5 lbs... all of us were two weeks early, the miscarriages happened at 6 months. You cannot use yourself as an example of why cigarette smoking is okay.


I know a woman who did crack for the first couple of months she was pregnant. Her daughter was normal and weighed over 7lbs.

I do not think it is right or okay to do cocaine or any other drug while you are pregnant. I do not want to jail smokers.... you had little credibility before you posted that drivel, you have none now. YOU are the one with the soapbox here, not me.




juliaoceania -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 6:16:32 AM)

There was a study finished in 2008 that confirms the links between the two, you should look at that instead of cherry picking some crap from 1997[8|]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16898673
The aims of this review are (a) to critically examine the epidemiologic evidence for a possible association between smoking and the sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), (b) to review the pathology and postulated physiological mechanism(s) by which smoking might be causally related to SIDS, and (c) to provide recommendations for SIDS prevention in relation to tobacco smoking. Over 60 studies have examined the relation between maternal smoking during pregnancy and risk of SIDS. With regard to prone-sleep-position intervention programs, the pooled relative risk associated with maternal smoking was RR = 2.86 (95% CI = 2.77, 2.95) before and RR = 3.93 (95% CI = 3.78, 4.08) after. Epidemiologically, to distinguish the effect of active maternal smoking during pregnancy from involuntary tobacco smoking by the infants of smoking mothers is difficult. Clear evidence for environmental tobacco smoke exposure can be obtained by examining the risk of SIDS from paternal smoking when the mother is a non-smoker. Seven such studies have been carried out. The pooled unadjusted RR was 1.49 (95% CI = 1.25, 1.77). Consideration of the pathological and physiological effects of tobacco suggests that the predominant effect from maternal smoking comes from the in utero exposure of the fetus to tobacco smoke. Assuming a causal association between smoking and SIDS, about one-third of SIDS deaths might have been prevented if all fetuses had not been exposed to maternal smoking in uter

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16521927

Sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) means the sudden death of an infant which is unexpected by history and in which an examination of the death scene and a thorough postmortem examination fails to reveal an adequate cause of death. Etiology of this syndrome is unknown but many risk factors were identified; the most important and preventable risk factors are prone sleeping position and influence of tobacco smoke (both smoking by pregnant woman and environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) near child's bed). The aim of this study was to assess the prevalence of smoking among women (also during pregnancy) and exposure of neonates and infants to ETS, to establish what circumstances are likely to make smoking woman stop smoking and to examine women's knowledge concerning risk factors of SIDS (mainly influence of tobacco smoke). The study comprised 61 women, aged 24 to 47, among them 35 nurses and 26 women without any medical education. The average percentage of smoking women was near 25% but among nurses was up to 30%. The prevalence of smoking during pregnancy was 6%. We identified high risk of ETS influence among both women and their children. The most important cause of smoking cessation was pregnancy. Among arguments for smoking cessation the risk of SIDS takes an important place. Women's knowledge about risk factors of SIDS (among them influence of tobacco smoke) and activity of physicians and midwifes to educate women as for this risk factors are unsatisfactory.

You missed my larger point, there is a girl that is being tried for the death of her child for using cocaine. You have repeatedly tried to find a connection, and yet found none. There has been a demonstrable connection between the things you have said cocaine was proven to do and the things that tobacco is proven to do, because nicotine is a stimulant. You smoked during your pregnancy. I don't want to jail you or judge you... I am not the one advocating jailing or judging, even though I was able to quit smoking myself....





tazzygirl -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 8:23:51 AM)

quote:

My mom had 4 children, two miscarriages. All of us weighed about 5.5 lbs... all of us were two weeks early, the miscarriages happened at 6 months. You cannot use yourself as an example of why cigarette smoking is okay.


38 weeks is not early.

quote:

There was a study finished in 2008 that confirms the links between the two, you should look at that instead of cherry picking some crap from 1997


Crap? You call the SIDS Alliance Board of Directors comments crap? Why are his words "crap"? Because they dont mesh with what you want to believe?



You missed my larger point, there is a girl that is being tried for the death of her child for using cocaine. You have repeatedly tried to find a connection, and yet found none. There has been a demonstrable connection between the things you have said cocaine was proven to do and the things that tobacco is proven to do, because nicotine is a stimulant. You smoked during your pregnancy. I don't want to jail you or judge you... I am not the one advocating jailing or judging, even though I was able to quit smoking myself....

When you finally answer the questions I have asked you, we can get back to yours.

If cocaine can cause a heart attack in a grown adult, why would anyone believe it could not do the same in a fetus?

What is the difference between obtaining any kind of drug via the umbilical cord vs breast milk vs bottle?




tweakabelle -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 9:36:42 AM)

quote:

Canaille
I simply cannot agree with the premise that these personal tragedies give the DAs and the courts the right to step in and rule that a pregnant woman loses the right to make really shitty decisions.


Thanks for re-focussing our attention on the core of the matter. In a perfect world we'd all make perfect decisions all the time. But who lives in a perfect world? And only perfect people should demand perfect decisions of others all the time.

Laws that parley 'shitty decisions' into deliberate murders are bad laws and a recipe for disaster as social policy.




tazzygirl -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 11:04:14 AM)

When shitty decisions cause the death of a child, then the law steps in. Again, everyone is avoiding the simple questions I have asked. And its obvious why both you and julia are avoiding answering them.

If cocaine can cause a heart attack in a grown adult, why would anyone believe it could not do the same in a fetus?

What is the difference between obtaining any kind of drug via the umbilical cord vs breast milk vs bottle?




juliaoceania -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 5:45:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

My mom had 4 children, two miscarriages. All of us weighed about 5.5 lbs... all of us were two weeks early, the miscarriages happened at 6 months. You cannot use yourself as an example of why cigarette smoking is okay.


38 weeks is not early.

quote:

There was a study finished in 2008 that confirms the links between the two, you should look at that instead of cherry picking some crap from 1997


Crap? You call the SIDS Alliance Board of Directors comments crap? Why are his words "crap"? Because they dont mesh with what you want to believe?



You missed my larger point, there is a girl that is being tried for the death of her child for using cocaine. You have repeatedly tried to find a connection, and yet found none. There has been a demonstrable connection between the things you have said cocaine was proven to do and the things that tobacco is proven to do, because nicotine is a stimulant. You smoked during your pregnancy. I don't want to jail you or judge you... I am not the one advocating jailing or judging, even though I was able to quit smoking myself....

When you finally answer the questions I have asked you, we can get back to yours.

If cocaine can cause a heart attack in a grown adult, why would anyone believe it could not do the same in a fetus?

What is the difference between obtaining any kind of drug via the umbilical cord vs breast milk vs bottle?


I would call a recent article from the NIH far more substantial than something from 1997 from a site supporting people who have suffered the loss from SIDs. Back when I was pregnant 21 years ago I was told that SIDs was linked, even if there was no positive proof that it was a direct cause of SIDs, my doctor told me from what she had read it seemed pretty closely related.

You claim to work with drug damaged infants. I would be completely amazed if the healthcare community you work with smiled upon smoking while pregnant. I was STRONGLY warned 21 years ago against the dangers of smoking while pregnant, and yet you treat it like it is no big deal. The article I quoted said 1/3 of SIDs deaths could be averted by smoking cessation while a woman is pregnant... that article was 5 years old. I found another article from 2008 that said the evidence was strong that SIDs is causally related to smoking. That is very strong wording, because as you know it is hard to say one thing is the cause of another...

I am much against smoking around kids and babies and smoking while pregnant. It is proven that it causes premature labor, low birth weight, and it has been linked with failure to thrive. As much as I am against smoking while pregnant and doing other substances while pregnant, I do not want to lock up mothers for smoking or doing drugs. In fact my opinion is that only a fucked up person would smoke while pregnant with all that is known about smoking and pregnancy today... which is even more than was known when I was pregnant. It is an addiction... plain and simple, a preventable cause of suffering for infants... just like other drugs.

It is very ironic that you would defend puffing on ciggies (your drug of choice) yet want to lock up other women and throw away the key for theirs.




tweakabelle -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 6:37:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

When shitty decisions cause the death of a child, then the law steps in. Again, everyone is avoiding the simple questions I have asked. And its obvious why both you and julia are avoiding answering them.

If cocaine can cause a heart attack in a grown adult, why would anyone believe it could not do the same in a fetus?

What is the difference between obtaining any kind of drug via the umbilical cord vs breast milk vs bottle?



From the OP:
"When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence."

Please note the bits in bold type in both quotes. One reason why I'm not bothering to respond to your questions is they are based on a false premise.

There are far saner, sensible alternatives to this legal madness. In earlier posts I have made a number of suggestions about practical alternative approaches that might actually deal with this issue rather than criminalise it and extract retribution on those then seen as 'criminal'. It's sad that people are uninterested in discussing other options and choose to rehash the discredited same old, same old.......

For me this discussion has already achieved all it's going to achieve. Thanks everyone.




juliaoceania -> RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges (7/3/2011 6:45:56 PM)

Thanks for contributing Tweaky, I am feeling about the same....

One thing I do not appreciate about American culture is this penchant for retribution disguised as "accountability". This discussion is not about the health of babies in my eyes, it is about attributing blame and shame, which is what being an American is about these days.

Laced throughout the posts on this thread is the point the feeling that someone maybe getting away with something, instead of thoughts about the future and what putting the actions of pregnant women up to legal scrutiny could mean. Like domiguy said, wanna look at what women eat, how much sleep they get, did they get enough exercise?

If we want women to become incubators the last few months they are pregnant, and a fair application of law, that means everything a woman does could come under the supervision of the legal system. I have no faith in our justice system to fairly apply the law, there are too many times overzealous prosecutors use laws to make their careers, and justice has little to do with their agenda in many cases




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