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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:02:23 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Some people might think that I was being too sensitive.

Absolutely not. And thank you, because that demonstrates perfectly what I was talking about in terms of countering the "if the victim doesn't complain then it's no harm/no foul" comments seen earlier in this thread.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:06:54 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Life is for the living. I enjoy it as much as possible and that includes the occasional prank. Nobody is okaying any of those behaviors by saying it's okay to joke around. People do take it too far as well as those who would watch against those who take it too far. No doubt if many of you were employed here, it wouldn't be too long before I got rid of you. In the corporate world most of you would fit in nicely but I've never cared for the corporate world. It was always too uptight and greedy for my tastes..

Corporate and Government minds.

Could be why I find why I find so many of you distasteful..

Awesome swathe of (in my case) wholly inaccurate generalisations. And a lovely job of painting yourself as a wight webel.

Nice going. You're so cool*.

*Obviously I mean that with the very greatest of respect ...

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:12:13 AM

Rochsub2009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

So while it makes Icarys think that we all have a stick up our collective behinds, I don't think any of us want to go back to a time when discrimination, sexual harassment, and other unacceptable behaviors were commonplace.

Life is for the living. I enjoy it as much as possible and that includes the occasional prank. Nobody is okaying any of those behaviors by saying it's okay to joke around. People do take it too far as well as those who would watch against those who take it too far.

Which is why it is such a challenge to find the right balance. We all want a fun work environment where employees feel empowered, and enjoy coming to work. But we don't want the fun to go so far that it becomes harassment.

Surely you agree that there is a line that people can't step over. So what do you do to prevent people from crossing that line? I'm very curious about your perspective on this.

In my case, we laugh and joke all the time at my companies. But putting your hands on another employee is off limits. In the case of the OP, I don't see anything wrong with what he did. But I would have talked to him about the hit. I know that it didn't hurt, and nobody was injured. But it's a line that I've drawn, and everyone knows that they can't cross it. I'm not saying that it is a perfect solution, but it works for me.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:16:46 AM

Icarys

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quote:

Awesome swathe of (in my case) wholly inaccurate generalisations. And a lovely job of painting yourself as a wight webel.

Nice going. You're so cool*.

*Obviously I mean that with the very greatest of respect ...

Noted.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:17:27 AM

Rochsub2009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Some people might think that I was being too sensitive.

Absolutely not. And thank you, because that demonstrates perfectly what I was talking about in terms of countering the "if the victim doesn't complain then it's no harm/no foul" comments seen earlier in this thread.

The funny thing is that that particular event happened over 20 years ago. Yet I still remember it. Moreover, it still makes me mad when I think about it.

Had I known then what I know now, I would have done things differently. But being young and afraid of my SVP/GM, I never challenged his behavior in any way. And it deserved to be challenged.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:18:08 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

But I would have talked to him about the hit. I know that it didn't hurt, and nobody was injured. But it's a line that I've drawn, and everyone knows that they can't cross it. I'm not saying that it is a perfect solution, but it works for me.

Agreed 100%. I can think of only one unpleasant work environment I've worked in during the last 7 or so years, and that was only unpleasant due to outside factors. I have a rather dry sense of humour, and so do many of my colleagues, and generally speaking we have a really happy working day, subject to the usual pressures.

This painting of anyone who isn't into bullying as being a general downer is entirely incorrect. Obviously, some sarky smartarse will now post a sarky reply to that, but, in essence, and taking my thoughts on the matter as a whole, they can just go fuck themselves :)

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:18:50 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Some people might think that I was being too sensitive.

Absolutely not. And thank you, because that demonstrates perfectly what I was talking about in terms of countering the "if the victim doesn't complain then it's no harm/no foul" comments seen earlier in this thread.

And we all can imagine how much good it would have done for Roch's career had he complained....

Not to sidetrack the issue, but in a normal workplace most people are now fairly sensitive to racial discrimination, though it's kinda amazing how many still seem to think that it's perfectly OK to tell females to make coffee. To clarify, if I'm in the office and I am the one who takes the last coffee, I will put the new filter in, water, make coffee, however in quite a lot of environments men seem to be incapable of doing it and to expect the women to do it for them. Of course it's not such "a big issue" but usually it sets a certain tone with the staff and those companies tend to be the ones where women aren't promoted as much as guys, which often leads to qualified employees leaving the company for another company. Sure there is no shortage of people looking for work, but some jobs might be harder to fill than others, and replacing employees is one of the biggest cost factors (looking for new people, tying up HR, interviews, training them... it all costs the company, it's time in which the people involved can't do anything productive...)

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:22:23 AM

LadyHibiscus

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When I was a teenager, one of my first jobs was as a secretary at the local YMCA. One of the bosses was a total flirt, always hugging, touching, "dipping" a la ballroom dance. I was chill. (Thanks to an early male mentor, who valued calmness!) I laughed it off, he was engaged, right? No one else in the office said anything. It didnt occur to me to complain, I wasn't bothered personally. Dude would have been out on his ass now.

Ah, the '70's!

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:37:39 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Not to sidetrack the issue, but in a normal workplace most people are now fairly sensitive to racial discrimination, though it's kinda amazing how many still seem to think that it's perfectly OK to tell females to make coffee.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I tell anyone to do anything in a given year. I wouldn't dream of ordering people about, male or female; first sign of weak management, that. It's a bit like swearing - if you do it all the time it has no effect, but on those rare occasions I deliberately assert my authority in a direct fashion, whoever is on the receiving end generally snaps to, statim. In all other instances I’m merely requesting something of someone; they know who I am, and what authority I wield (such as it is), so barking orders like a deranged dog is just rude, IMHO at least.

Maybe I've been lucky and worked in enlightened places (or, in some cases, with my team, brought enlightenment to others), but the general attitude in the last few places (over the last decade, with one exception) I've worked in is "if you want coffee, do it yourself. If you feel like making coffee for others, that's very nice of you, and I'll reciprocate the next time I'm making some". I do my share, as does everyone else, and I don’t go in for the “newest/youngest makes all the coffees” either – we all do our bit, same as with any other menial task that happens to be part of all our working days. We’re a team, after all.

The only exception to that would be someone whose job description incorporates aspects of "meeting support", where I'd reasonably expect them, as part of the admin prep for that meeting, to ensure there were refreshments available. I'd still thank them for doing it though, as I tend to thank anyone who does a task well. Takes 2 seconds to say "thanks for that, appreciated", no matter what the task.

It's just good manners isn't it?

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:46:28 AM

Icarys

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quote:

So what do you do to prevent people from crossing that line? I'm very curious about your perspective on this.

Right around where intent, the "victim's" personal perspective is and common sense. A pat on the back is okay because we see it as an example of a job well done but it's still putting your hands on another. If everyone is okay with the joke then I don't have a problem with it. I could never happily work in a corporate office.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:51:51 AM

VirginPotty

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ALOT of uptight posters here turning a seemingly innocent, light hearted thread into a case for Judge Judy.

**Eta, I guess I'll remove the dildo from my rookie's mouth hence a visit to the Judge**

< Message edited by VirginPotty -- 6/30/2011 8:52:36 AM >

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:55:22 AM

LadyConstanze

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Sorry, but in a work environment and if you bear responsibility for the project, you have to "order people around", it's just a question of how you do it. Assigning tasks is needed or else you really don't get anything done, but instead of ordering them, you can ask them to do something and give them a deadline, it makes it a nicer atmosphere and they just like their work more than if they are formally ordered, better results all around.

I tend to go a lot into other work environments (consulting tends to bring that with it) and I just noticed that usually where it seems to be acceptable in that environment to send the women to get or make coffee, there seem to be other problems lurking, it's just a good indicator to look out for and to be honest, it makes my job easier as it's a good clue, usually some mini tyrant running the department and setting the tone, the minions follow....

Though it can be quite humorous on occasion, I recall making my way to a department while colleagues checked out the other departments (the company was losing money left right and center, while the product should have sold well especially in a recession, but nothing seemed to be happening in the company and the majority of projects were way over budget and time) and just stood there, trying to find somebody who I could introduce myself to, some guy came up "Darling, bring me some tea, white, 2 sugars - my office is over there!" Interesting enough he was the head of the department, brought him the tea (made to his specification) while he was manically cleaning his office desk and muttering about stupidity of having his department checked out by some know-nothings, everything running fine, I just stood there, he then looked at me again and said "I guess you're the temp filling in for Sue..." I thought that was a good time to introduce myself and usually you don't see that colour on somebody who isn't about to be choked to death.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:56:30 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

So what do you do to prevent people from crossing that line? I'm very curious about your perspective on this.

Right around where intent, the "victim's" personal perspective is and common sense. A pat on the back is okay because we see it as an example of a job well done but it's still putting your hands on another. If everyone is okay with the joke then I don't have a problem with it. I could never happily work in a corporate office.

I guess therein lies the problem. In the example Roch gave, that sense was so uncommon as to be non-existent. The 'bluff and hearty, good old boy' wavelength just doesn't always cut it.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 6/30/2011 9:05:42 AM >

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:58:38 AM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigblock61

Do you mess with the vanilla people that surround you in daily life? I love to people watch in my spare time only because humanity can be really entertaining. The reason I'm asking is because I'm training a new guy at work to build transmissions. I told him that he doesn't have to call me Master, Sir will do. I also told him that he has to pay a daily tribute of coffee every morning. This went on for about a week before he figured out that I was messing with him. The whole place thought it was hysterical to watch him bring me coffee first thing every morning and I did smack him upside the head once when he forgot. I really couldn't believe he let me do it.

Only if they mess with me - i.e., submissive is submissive, whether it's to me or to Jesus.

Socially, I might allude to it if I think they'll take it as it's intended, like joking about spanking them if they've "been bad", or even slappin' 'em on the ass if I'm certain it won't be construed as sexual harassment, i.e., it would only be with somebody I know well enough to get away with that, it's kinda more of an old school "man thing" - which is kinky enough in certain circles - but as more people are getting into BDSM, or at least heard about it, there are more opportunities for verbal interchanges that would probably just be over the head of most vanilla's - but yeah, I've done that before too.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 9:00:46 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Sorry, but in a work environment and if you bear responsibility for the project, you have to "order people around", it's just a question of how you do it. Assigning tasks is needed or else you really don't get anything done, but instead of ordering them, you can ask them to do something and give them a deadline, it makes it a nicer atmosphere and they just like their work more than if they are formally ordered, better results all around.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to paraphrase exactly what I'd just posted.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 9:01:51 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VirginPotty

ALOT of uptight posters here turning a seemingly innocent, light hearted thread into a case for Judge Judy.

I refer the honourable lady to the answer I gave earlier.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 9:37:26 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Sorry, but in a work environment and if you bear responsibility for the project, you have to "order people around", it's just a question of how you do it. Assigning tasks is needed or else you really don't get anything done, but instead of ordering them, you can ask them to do something and give them a deadline, it makes it a nicer atmosphere and they just like their work more than if they are formally ordered, better results all around.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to paraphrase exactly what I'd just posted.

I was actually referring to this part of your post

quote:

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I tell anyone to do anything in a given year. I wouldn't dream of ordering people about, male or female; first sign of weak management, that.

An order doesn't have to sound like one to be one, but if you don't tell somebody what you expect from them, you can't expect them to do a good job. And you must be so much better than I am, because if there is a crisis and we have to act quickly or else something will go tits up, I have on more than one occasion reacted in a fashion like this:

- Rob, can you get me a backup of the graphics ASAP?
- John, please ring company ...
- Louise, I need the whole text block again, my Mac just died on me
- Can anybody arrange for a conference call while I'm trying to rescue the files?

If there's a crisis (and they tend to happen) yup, there are orders or else you got a bunch of people running around like headless chickens.

I didn't take any offense when the Master Of Our Universe (the MD, we call him that but it has more to do with his size, he isn't diabetic for no reason) barked down the phone "In Moscow, robbed, call insurance, cancel all cards, courier me all the stuff I need for the conference ASAP!" I didn't point out that I am not his PA, it was an emergency and he could get a hold of me and not his PA, I didn't feel harassed or degraded. The better the company does the more secure is a job and in a crisis allowances for manners are made, especially if a deal for a couple of million might go down the drain. Since I live a great deal closer to the office than his PA, it wasn't much of a deal to walk 20 minutes to the office, on the way call his PA and his wife, find out where all the documents are and start ticking off tasks.

Sometimes even barked orders aren't offensive, it depends completely on the circumstances, I mean if I'd be choking on a fish bone and the doctor saving my life would yell "Breath you bitch, don't die on me" I possibly wouldn't take offense.

A work environment where you never have to give a direct order must be very charmed, you must have been incredibly lucky to not run into people who think as long as an order is phrased as a polite request they can ignore it. That's usually the time when we mere mortals have to sit somebody down and explain that just because we say "Would you please..." it isn't optional, it's just polite and that I wouldn't like to have to explain that again.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 9:41:35 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

A work environment where you never have to give a direct order

I didn't say "never".

It's a bit like Bruce Lee - the art of fighting without fighting. Authority you have to flex to exert generally means you aren’t respected enough by your subordinates.

Anyway, bored now. Continue on your own by all means.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 9:50:22 AM

LadyConstanze

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Or you might be dealing with people who are new, come from a different work environment where they were used to barked orders, in some cases you are also dealing with foreigners who come from another cultural background where they actually think that if you phrase it as a request it is optional...

quote:

Anyway, bored now. Continue on your own by all means.

Thank you (said with the greatest respect), wouldn't have dared to do so without permission!

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 12:27:31 PM

kalikshama

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quote:

though it's kinda amazing how many still seem to think that it's perfectly OK to tell females to make coffee. To clarify, if I'm in the office and I am the one who takes the last coffee, I will put the new filter in, water, make coffee, however in quite a lot of environments men seem to be incapable of doing it and to expect the women to do it for them.

I side-stepped this for many years by being a tea drinker.

One cup machines like Keurig also solve this problem. We buy the coffee by the case at BJ's.

However, the men folk will persist in leaving their dirty dishes in the sink >_<
I tried to solve this by taking them out at the end of the day and stacking them in a box, but they seem to have an endless supply of cheap plastic containers. We also removed the disposable coffee cups in an attempt to get them to wash their reusable coffee cups, with limited success.

Now, when the OWNER asks me to get coffee for his guests, I am happy to do so (despite not being in a support role.) I just don't want to clean or cook for random lazy coworkers.

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