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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 5:03:25 PM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Hmm, everything you say makes sense.  I'm not going to disagree with you.  However, personally, I'd rather work in an environment where people were at ease enough to joke around and hell even fuck up every now and then, than in other work environments where everyone was afraid to do shit - because of the possible repercussions.  Been there, done both and the latter  work environment sucked ass.

In the former, it wasn't hard to stick up for oneself.  On a couple occasions someone crossed over into unacceptable areas.  For example, one married man hit on me when I was at work.  I was pregnant (ohhh so very pregnant) and at first I didn't realize he was even hitting on me until he said, "Let's put it this way...YOU'LL never be safer."  Meaning he couldn't get me pregnant.  I just laughed, shook my head and said pleasantly, "yes, but your JOB has been safer."  He got the message.  That's all that needed to be said.  No drama, no lawsuits, no fall of civilization. 

Granted, my words - as lighthearted and playful as they were, had merit because well - there ARE laws and policies against sexual harassment.  So, again, I'm not going to dispute the need for laws and policies to protect individuals from harassment and bullying.  I just think that - in many cases - they don't have to evolve into a big deal.  Especially when you don't start with a work environment that is so uptight, you shit diamonds when you get home.



God save me from having to work.

But if and when I DO have to (yeah, it's coming).......I have 3 sons..... you don't get through THAT with out knowing a thang or two. Bless my corporate driven boys, bless the fact they will be managers before they even hit 20yrs old. And bless the fact that they can look after NEW STAFF.....not only because they WANT to but because they know what it's like to be * that new kid*.

No2 son won Area Heats for his company....while finishing his managerial course. Assistant manager at 19 yrs old, It can be done! He worked more hours than seemed reasonable .....until I realised he went into work at 5am to make sure all was in order.His own choice.

He has staff 10 yrs older than himself that he has had to direct.......and he did NOT find that easy at all, considering they'd been there longer than him.

Son No3 works in a shop selling PC games etc.while he's at college. Both Sats and Sundays........ His boss is a great guy, he's made to feel like a genuinely appreciated functioning member of the store.

If they had to *suffer* a week of being farted around with, they'd handle it.  Rightly or wrongly, they'd manage it with aplomb......for a WHILE. After that, they'd be shooting way past that situation.

I didn't think the OP was aimed at work situations, specifically, despite his OP.

If it was,then p'raps he could clarify.

agirl


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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 5:05:11 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Yep, that is the joy of litigation.  As long as the employee's cases rises about the frivolous, you probably could employ this strategy.  On the other hand, if one of the employees came clean about their motivation, that could lead to a cause of action against you and potential sanctions against the attorney involved.  Still, I have seen litigation as a weapon against business competitors more times than I can count.

On the other hand, I read about a case in England where a woman is suing one of the tabloids.  She would like to drop her suit, but if she does, she will have to pay the other side's fees, which she can't afford to do.  So, a system that discourages settlement also doesn't work.

And yes, people can go on about how their work place is different, and certain types of behavior are acceptable.  That is, until you need to lay off people, either for cause or economics.  Then, all of a sudden, they have been sexually or otherwise harassed and they are suing you.  Like it or not, it is better to run a pretty controlled workplace, with policies prohibiting certain types of behavior. It just isn't worth the risk, but, I hate getting sued and no one but lawyers make money in litigation.  Like the saying goes, "an ounce of prevention . . . "  



Oh I agree, though the case you read about is possibly exaggerated, as far as I am informed (mind you most of my experience with the legal system apart from corporate law has been on the continent and not the UK - I've only been living here again for about 4 or 5 years, so give it time...) she could reach a settlement with them and part of the out of court settlement would include the dropping of fees, as far as I am informed nothing to prevent her from that.

I would imagine ligitation being employed fairly often to get competitors out of the way, and people who employ those methods possibly also know how to cover their tracks.

I hear what you are saying regarding people being laid off, on the other hand, I have seen people being accused of breaking company policy or rules and regulations because the company needs to lay off people and isn't willing to to pay the wages they owe...

Unfortunately 2 sides to every coin, but as an employer, I would most certainly err on the side of caution!

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 5:14:19 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

It is possible to enjoy work, have fun, and stand up for yourselves without taking it to extremes.  From my experience and perspective, I don't see the OP as being a bully.  Now, I'm assuming the guy wasn't wearing a C-collar or experiencing a concussion or even a headache after the Gibbs he was given.  It isn't like he smacked the guy on the ass or anything. 

That's my feelings on the matter.  I understand your perspective, respect it, but in this instance,I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one  



For some people it is, but think back, weren't you shy and scared once and would not have dealt so well with it? Would it have been alright then if you would have been bullied and treated badly?

I never took any employer to court for sexual harassment, I can handle most of that shit with a few chosen words as can you, I couldn't always do that and because somebody is less mouthy or can not stand up for him or herself doesn't make it open season, they signed up for a job not for bullying and harassment?


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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 5:28:16 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze



For some people it is, but think back, weren't you shy and scared once and would not have dealt so well with it? Would it have been alright then if you would have been bullied and treated badly?

I never took any employer to court for sexual harassment, I can handle most of that shit with a few chosen words as can you, I couldn't always do that and because somebody is less mouthy or can not stand up for him or herself doesn't make it open season, they signed up for a job not for bullying and harassment?


First I want to say, it is NEVER ok - then or now - to be bullied or harassed. 

I was 22 when I started working at a HUGE Oil Refinery, and truth be told I'm about as shy a person as you'll ever meet.  I was entering a work environment that had very few women.  On most job sites I was the ONLY woman amidst hundreds of men, and you want to know something.  THEY were more scared of me.  Because of harassment laws, I was a lot more of a threat to them, than the other way around.  Shit, you mention the name Exxon (now ExxonMobil) and most people's eyes get glassy and you can see the dollar signs appear in their pupils. 

I don't happen to consider what the OP mentioned as bullying or harrasment, but that's my perspective.  I saw it as similar light-hearted goofiness that I saw in a lot of men I worked with.  This is our disconnect.  You see it as harassment and bullying.  I understand your perspective, I just don't share it.  Not in THIS case.

Hell, I had guys lock me in the freaking outhouse, then call me on the radio with an emergency - hahfuckinghah!  Jackassses!  I loved those jackasses by the way.  I guess my experiences just make me see things less austerely. 

Not saying I'm right or wrong.  It is just how I see it, through the lens of my own personal experiences.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 5:39:48 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
Yes, I did.  It was very amusing.  I know that it probably isn't acceptable in a majority of work places - but I have worked in environments where the policies weren't so strict.  I dunno.  Working 84 hours a week with these guys, for months on end without a day off - they were more like family than co-workers.  I guess I just have a different perspective, in general, about this. 


Probably so.  It's a lot different depending on perspective.  Sure, the people working together want to have a fun environment.  The other side of it is that somebody, at some point, is going to have to deal with it when the fun goes too far. 

Don't let anybody ever fool you if they are associated with HR.  Those positions exist to cover company ass first, employees second.  There wasn't anybody that I ever let go come back with a legal claim, but that's because every person that I had ever dismissed violated something that was laid out in black and white that they acknowledged by signature that they accepted as company policy as terms of employment. 


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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 5:43:00 PM   
poise


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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 5:45:00 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		The Man worked at Home Depot for a while. The first one didn't have any of this shit going on. The one up here, that he transferred to when he moved up did. It had a store manager who didn't take charge and who was a low level bully himself. The loss of morale meant that people were less effective. Customers were blown off and ignored by salespeople who were too depressed to care and went down the street to Lowes.

Eventually corporate saw that the numbers were down and sent in somebody to investigate. And all kinds of firings ensued. None of that would have been necessary if the company policies had been enforced from the beginning. Instead, the managers were encouraged to bully the underlings. The regional HR person spent more time dealing with repeated instances from the same people in this store than with any other couple of stores combined.


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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 5:51:13 PM   
agirl


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quote:


There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

It is possible to enjoy work, have fun, and stand up for yourselves without taking it to extremes.  From my experience and perspective, I don't see the OP as being a bully.  Now, I'm assuming the guy wasn't wearing a C-collar or experiencing a concussion or even a headache after the Gibbs he was given.  It isn't like he smacked the guy on the ass or anything. 

That's my feelings on the matter.  I understand your perspective, respect it, but in this instance,I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one  



For some people it is, but think back, weren't you shy and scared once and would not have dealt so well with it? Would it have been alright then if you would have been bullied and treated badly?

I never took any employer to court for sexual harassment, I can handle most of that shit with a few chosen words as can you, I couldn't always do that and because somebody is less mouthy or can not stand up for him or herself doesn't make it open season, they signed up for a job not for bullying and harassment?



I certainly was! When I took a job in a factory I was utterly unprepared for the degrading manner in which I was treated. After a year, I was fairly accustomed, it was my everyday* norm*. I became a grunt. I became conditioned.

When I secured my job as a Graphic Artist in my lunch hour, I walked back to that fucking depressing factory.My boss was furious that I was 3 mins late...I helped him deal with that. It took 6 words. 12 months to form, 1 min to say.........* Stick your job up your arse*. (Ok, it wasn't a planned response and it WAS 1977-ish !!!)

I know it's a ropey scene, but I walked out to applause. And went on to a new job with a fantastic boss. I never looked back. I've never had any money or wealth, but yes, it makes me smile when my kids respect others, no matter their age, gender or where they came from.

Factually...it took a good 2years to breed all that factory, *eyes down, don't piss the boss off* shite out of me.

But that was back in the dark ages. It's nothing like that now.

agirl








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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 6:22:57 PM   
bigblock61


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Status: offline 		This will definitely be my last reply to this topic. If there is a moderator watching this please lock this thread so it can go away. For those of you who got the fact that it was all just a simple joke and a way to break the ice with a new fellow work companion, thank you. For those who just gave a simple yes or no to my question or even had no comment either way, thank you. As for the rest of you, you'll never get it so don't try. If you ever get to know me you'll find out I'm a pretty likable guy with a slightly warped sense of humor but that humor has served me well. No people were hurt in the writing of this post but you're just going to have to trust me on that one. My trainee was a guy that I was just showing the ropes to. I have no say in his hiring or firing or even performance.  My job was to simply show him how we do things. The fact that he bought me coffee really had more to do with the fact that we all buy each other coffee in the morning. it's only 25 cents a cup here. I've probably doubled or tripled the coffee that I've bought for him. As for the smack upside the head, yes i did do ,I barely touched him and we both laughed about it right after. He was about to install the main control of the transmission upside down. It was a mistake that technicians of our caliber do not usually make. Yes he is a seasoned professional by the way, and in no way a rookie. So again, everything that was done was done in jest everybody including him thought so as well. Lighten up, not everything is black or white, or even M/S and let this, please, be the end of it.


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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 6:51:15 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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Status: offline 		Damn, when I worked around mechanics, they would sneak in to the bathroom and drop a M-80 in the stall next to you, or hit ya with water balloons launched from the body shop on top of the hill. They also would slap ya ass, give ya crank, smoke a joint with ya during lunch, cuss like sailors and scratch their balls when you were looking right at em. They would tell me to go fetch something to drink, roll their eyes and tell me I was a girl and didn't understand whatever they were talking about and they made fun of each other and of me.

They also had ya back if you ever needed them, they held me when I cried after replacing flowers at my dads grave, they made sure no customer ever fucked with me and they made me laugh!

The workforce is a bunch of pussies these days. When I was in the Army, sexual harassment was a job benefit, we would say. If you didn't like the person harassing you, you told them to fuck off, and both of you moved on.

The OP had fun with a newbie. Whoopie shit. Transmissions are hard as hell to learn and I am sure comic relief is needed.

Sheesh, the PC world sucks...always gotta worry about hurting someones feelings.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 7:12:49 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Pardon my shitty wordage but it seemed fitting with all of this legal talk..Which I might add seems REALLY fucking ironic considering where we are saying it..I mean verging on idiotic.



Since I'm apparently the only one who has real life experience on the legal side of things....I have thought how ironic and funny this discussion is.  Especially those talking about what is inappropriate in the work place, as they type their response from their job.  If the tech department decided to check what everyone was doing on their computers (completely legal, although I'm sure some stick up the butt will bitch about privacy), they risk being fired for not only being on a website that has nothing to do with work, but one that would be considered sexually based at that.

The great I will tell everyone else what they are doing is horribly wrong and inappropriate, but please don't notice what I'm doing.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 7:34:16 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

The fact that I recognize the potential for something doesn't mean that I would be as ruthless, it's just that it automatically crossed my mind that the legal situation would leave somebody open for that kind of approach and if I can think about it, I am pretty sure others have thought about it too. For example how about if somebody would promise them jobs with higher wages for example? Or you take on temporary staff as quite a few businesses do, then it would be fairly easy to manufacture...

To be honest when I worked in the US, I was very amazed about what is acceptable and what not, like a male (and VERY gay) colleague said he couldn't bring me a banana as a snack (one I requested as he was leaving the office and I couldn't as I was waiting for a call) as it could be a bit risky and without me complaining, the fact that somebody else could see and complain could cause problems made me blink. The funny thing was at the time I was working for a rather well known fashion magazine, about 90% of the guys on staff batted for the other team and everybody knew that a fair bit of sexual harassment was going on with models on the side of photographers or clients, yet the banana, oh no....


Actually LC, while it might not be a competitor type thing, it wouldn't be all that hard for a bitter ex-employee to essentially do what you described to simply put their employer out of business.

The situation you describe above is why diversity training exists.  The US has become sooo litigious that everyone is going far above and beyond in their attempts to see such things don't happen.  That litigiousness is also why the court needs a person to meet both the burden of how a "reasonable" person would feel, as well as how the "victim" perceived it.  If they didn't someone could see this chat site up on your computer when they came in your office and file suit saying they felt sexually harassed.  The "victim" is not on the "reasonable" person list, that's why they have their own perception category.  If the burden of proof was the "victim's" alone, all plaintiff's would win.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/29/2011 11:25:52 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Since I'm apparently the only one who has real life experience on the legal side of things....



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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 4:14:12 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


Since I'm apparently the only one who has real life experience on the legal side of things....I have thought how ironic and funny this discussion is.  Especially those talking about what is inappropriate in the work place, as they type their response from their job.  If the tech department decided to check what everyone was doing on their computers (completely legal, although I'm sure some stick up the butt will bitch about privacy), they risk being fired for not only being on a website that has nothing to do with work, but one that would be considered sexually based at that.

The great I will tell everyone else what they are doing is horribly wrong and inappropriate, but please don't notice what I'm doing.


Good thing that this week I'm working from home, on my own network, my own computer (rather get paid for the use of my private one than use a company one) and internet connection and as long as my work is in on time, nobody has a problem, actually I think work's quite grateful because this way I can keep rather odd hours, which is kinda important when dealing with different time zones (and nobody likes to hang around in the office waiting for a response from the West Coast and billing time when they could sit at home, watch a movie and wait for the alert that the response came - it makes a nice beep). I'm actually logged in at the corporate page and their Wiki with another browser, if I'd be in the office and not the home office, I'd stay the hell away from CM, same if I'm logging on at a client's and I usually never even use the browser I use for my private browsing, less a security issue, more my own odd quirk. Would I have the desperate urge to check CM while being in the office, lunch break and an iPhone would suffice.

You might be underestimating people here, I don't think all that many of us would be clueless enough to sign in via a company network, I'm not the most technical person in the world, I use tech but if I can grasp that concept, so can others. I'm under no illusion that if the company would like to get rid of me they could, easily. You can always find a reason, so a simple solution is making sure that they don't want to, because you make them money, if you're a drain to them, they will put you under the microscope to find a reason and since we are all not perfect, they can.

Btw the only time I ever had to sue a company I worked for was years ago, student job and I was a bit naive, they owed me a full 3 months wages and didn't pay (small company) and fopped me off with excuses, then refused to take calls or reply to registered letters, so I gave them a respite which they ignored and then took it to court. It was a straight forward process and I got my money. I wouldn't hesitate to sue if there was no other option, or somebody would try to rip me off, but usually those things can be worked out, in general an employer is interested that the employees are happy and like the company because no matter what you do, it reflects in the end product, hell lot of difference if somebody just does the job because that's what they're paid for but not really interested, or somebody who really wants to do a good job. The 2nd one you won't get if you have staff that's demoralized and bullied.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 7:09:11 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


You might be underestimating people here, I don't think all that many of us would be clueless enough to sign in via a company network, I'm not the most technical person in the world, I use tech but if I can grasp that concept, so can others.


You would think, right?  There has been a lot of press in the US over the last few years about what employees are doing on work computers.  There was a Judge in Pinellas County, Florida who was not only caught looking at porn on his computer, but he was doing it while sitting on the bench!  So obviously there are some who are oblivious (or perhaps egotistical enough) to not grasp the concept of what they should do on a company network.  Even more frightening was that he wasn't removed from the bench, by the way.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 7:14:14 AM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		I had to google that...

http://www.floridasupport.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=2573

Would it be wrong to say that some people are complete and utter idiots?

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 7:31:08 AM   
Rochsub2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Leave being PC aside, I take you for the guy who would still step in when he'd see bullying behaviour like described by the OP, even if you wouldn't be worried about an employee suing you and you losing money due to having to show up in court.

Personally I find the treatment of women in some societies very offensive, other guys see those oppressed women as the ideal women as they will do as they are told, mileage may vary but I would find a society where males are oppressed just as offensive, I guess that's the pesky idea about consent that I harbour, as long as people give consent, I'm OK with it, the absence of it - for me personally - is abuse.


I agree completely.  I'm all for laughing and joking.  I believe in having fun.  The problem is that there is always one asshole who takes the fun too far.  His behavior starts to become sexual harassment, or he starts to become a bully, or he starts to become racist.  Unfortunately, he's typically too stupid to realize that he's being an asshole, and so HR Departments (or even lawyers) have to get involved.

It would be great if everyone had the wisdom to know where fun ends and harassment begins.  But unfortunately they don't.  So while it makes Icarys think that we all have a stick up our collective behinds, I don't think any of us want to go back to a time when discrimination, sexual harassment, and other unacceptable behaviors were commonplace.

I'll give you an example of a time when someone thought they were having fun, but I didn't think it was very funny.  Early in my career, I was working for a major American corporation. We had our annual division meeting in the ballroom of a local hotel.  The VP of Finance was giving the opening speech, and as part of it, he did a little dance on stage.  When the VP of Finance's presentation was over, the SVP/General Manager of our division got up on the stage to do his presentation.  He started out by saying what a terrible dancer the VP of Finance was.  He then called me by name and asked me to come up on the stage and show them what "real dancing" looked like.  The problem was that I was the only black person in the division.  He had never seen me dance, and I had never given any indication that I was a good dancer.  Yet, he singled me out to give a dancing demonstration in front of over 300 employees.  Everyone else in the division thought it was funny.  I thought he was a racist asshole.  But he was the SVP/General Manager, and I was a young employee.  So I was scared to complain about the incident.  And nobody else ever came to me and told me that what he did was wrong, or encouraged me to file a complaint.

Some people might think that I was being too sensitive.  It was all in fun.  Everybody else was laughing, so why did I take it so seriously?  But to me, I felt singled out.  I felt like he had just made me the butt of a racist stereotype in front of my entire division.  Why did he choose me (the only black employee in the division) to give a dancing demonstration?  It may have been innocent.  He may have chosen me at random.  But I believe that he was perpetuating the "all black people can dance" stereotype.  I was angry, embarrassed, and frustrated all at the same time.  Moreover, I felt victimized.  But nobody else seemed to see it that way.

So yes, I can understand how someone can feel uncomfortable about teasing, or hazing, or "innocent joking".  That's why I take such a hard stance on it.  People should be able to go to work without feeling victimized.  Just because everyone else thinks that the teasing or hazing is funny, it doesn't mean that the victim feels that way.

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RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 7:31:41 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
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From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		In my county, one of the judges decided to fuck one of the clerks. They did it in the courtroom of another judge they both disliked, right on his chair. The whole event was recorded on video, since all the courtrooms have cameras. The clerk was the wife of a local attorney. She got fired, her husband's practice went to shit. The judge got sent to a sexual harassment seminar in las Vegas. Two careers and a family ruined, but I am sure it was all in good fun

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Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 7:38:59 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
You know, Roch, I have my students write me anonymous notes at the beginning and the end of the semester.  At the end there is always someone who says they feel like I treated them with respect and kindness... At the beginning, there is always someone who write, "please don't hit me."  It makes me wonder what has happened that this request even comes up. 



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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? - 6/30/2011 8:00:33 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

So while it makes Icarys think that we all have a stick up our collective behinds, I don't think any of us want to go back to a time when discrimination, sexual harassment, and other unacceptable behaviors were commonplace.

Life is for the living. I enjoy it as much as possible and that includes the occasional prank. Nobody is okaying any of those behaviors by saying it's okay to joke around. People do take it too far as well as those who would watch against those who take it too far. No doubt if many of you were employed here, it wouldn't be too long before I got rid of you. In the corporate world most of you would fit in nicely but I've never cared for the corporate world. It was always too uptight and greedy for my tastes..

Corporate and Government minds.

Could be why I find why I find so many of you distasteful..


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(in reply to Rochsub2009)
Profile   Post #: 180
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