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RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 1:41:10 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

If you read the words of the people who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights they made it very clear that the right to bear arms was intended as a individual not a state right.  For example Federalist paper #46   

Federalist 46 has nothing to say directly on the matter and the argument about private firearms ownership is directly about a state militia.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 1:41:17 PM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline 		Ah leave it be...please. I have his verbal vomit on hide, you quoting him is cluttering my screen with loony nuthouse ramblings.

ETA this made me laugh though:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
(I bet the dog ate your homework every night when you were at school...)


I can just imagine him in math class

Teacher: RO, you need to show your work on your homework.

RO: NO! I don't have time for such pedestrian activities. If you want me to take the time to write all that out you have to pay me. Can't you just accept that I'm right?

Teacher: Actually, half of these answers were wrong, I was hoping that by showing your work I could help...

RO: WHATEVER I BET YOU ARE JUST A POD PERSON REMOTE CONTROLLED BY THE QUEEN. MY DESK IS MY LAND I OWN IT GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT NYEHHHHHHH NO DONT TAKE ME TO THE COUNSELOR AGAIN

< Message edited by imperatrixx -- 7/4/2011 1:44:25 PM >

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 1:49:14 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

You're the one who claims that you have a case for your line of bullshit: substantiate it, or withdraw it.

(I bet the dog ate your homework every night when you were at school...)


thats incorrect I never claimed I had a case.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 1:51:03 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

If you read the words of the people who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights they made it very clear that the right to bear arms was intended as a individual not a state right.  For example Federalist paper #46   

Federalist 46 has nothing to say directly on the matter and the argument about private firearms ownership is directly about a state militia.


only if you go with the courts decision based on the 14th, which was never ratified "according to law".

and if you believe "We the People" means "We the State". 

Though I can prove I am a state.  But people need to get the basics down first.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/4/2011 1:52:49 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 1:56:59 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

Ah leave it be...please. I have his verbal vomit on hide, you quoting him is cluttering my screen with loony nuthouse ramblings.

Yes the farther one drifts from reality the more painful truth is.

ETA this made me laugh though:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
(I bet the dog ate your homework every night when you were at school...)


I can just imagine him in math class

Teacher: RO, you need to show your work on your homework.

RO: NO! I don't have time for such pedestrian activities. If you want me to take the time to write all that out you have to pay me. Can't you just accept that I'm right?

Teacher: Actually, half of these answers were wrong, I was hoping that by showing your work I could help...

RO: WHATEVER I BET YOU ARE JUST A POD PERSON REMOTE CONTROLLED BY THE QUEEN. MY DESK IS MY LAND I OWN IT GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT NYEHHHHHHH NO DONT TAKE ME TO THE COUNSELOR AGAIN


LMAO 

yeh the part about math actually happened!   I gave him all my shortcuts many of which was not taught because I was going to flunk the test if I did not.   He accepted them as valid.

But then he was qualified and knew what he was doing.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 1:57:21 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

You're the one who claims that you have a case for your line of bullshit: substantiate it, or withdraw it.

(I bet the dog ate your homework every night when you were at school...)


thats incorrect I never claimed I had a case.



Yes you did. You just haven't had the decency to withdraw it despite the fact that you can't back it up.

"While I have the information 8 terrabytes its not easy to simply pull one citation it out on a whim any more. It overloads my grep."

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 1:58:54 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		having a citation and a case are entirely different.

sorry.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 2:01:14 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		You don't have either in this case, true enough.

(Or indeed, any case I've seen you blathering about in here.)

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 2:10:18 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

You don't have either in this case, true enough.

(Or indeed, any case I've seen you blathering about in here.)


wrong again.

what I told you is that I do have

what I do not have is the desire or inclination to spend the time to dig it out for you, "at this time".   Its in your history books look it up if its so important to you.

Again you miss the distinction.

On my give a fuck meter it ranks a zero.





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 2:15:36 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
wrong again.

what I told you is that I do have

what I do not have is the desire or inclination to spend the time to dig it out for you, "at this time".   Its in your history books look it up if its so important to you.

Again you miss the distinction.

On my give a fuck meter it ranks a zero.

For somebody who likes to portray themself as a badass legal mind, you don't appear to have heard of the onus of proof.
Put up or shut up.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 5:52:45 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And you can't own a fire arm till you are 18 a handgun till 21 and owning firearms like voting is a right you give up by committing a crime. 



EXACTLY!!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 5:53:50 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
In Florida, 1400 people had the legal right to carry a firearm after being convicted of a felony. Shouldnt that worry legal gun owners?


Yes, it should. In particular it should worry the other 766,000 permit holders in Florida. I'm going to take a wild guess and bet that there are more than 1400 criminals carrying hot iron in Florida but that should not distract us from locating and disarming the .0018 % of folks carrying with a permit who shouldn't be.

There are problems with the licensing system(s). Address them and correct them. Publish our names if think that will help police the matter. I personally don't feel that my name on that list makes me a target. I'm armed. Let them know. They'll know what to expect.



Im going to play devil's advocate for a moment. If you publish names, then arent you telling criminals which citizens DONT own guns?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 6:06:34 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

-FR-

This is the Second Amendment of the US Constitution:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

It actually specifies regulation. And it gives the reason for the right to bear arms as the need for a militia. Now, at the time, they needed that to fight against Native Americans in the West, as well as potential threats by British, Spanish, and French armies against our land...and even to fight slave rebellions. Now...we own the whole country. The "militia" idea makes me think of civilians going to the Mexican border to shoot and patrol.

I think that Americans should have the right to keep guns (definitely hunting rifles and shotguns, handguns should be legal but regulated...personally I'd ban most gangsta rappers from owning guns just from their irresponsible gun lyrics) but I don't think that should be based in the Second Amendment because that ties gun ownership to civilian militias and I am not too keen on civilian militias taking the law into their own hands.

I wonder if "a well regulated militia" could be compared to something like the National Guard. If so...then wouldn't the modern interpretation be something like "if you want a gun, join the National Guard"?


When the Constitution was written most people lived miles from their closest neighbors. There was no "police force", no National Guard. It literally was every man for himself (and his family). Many did not see their neighbors except at special events or church on sundays... if they attended a church... many just had services in their homes.

Owning a gun was a matter of life or death when you couldnt get help for hours, or even days.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 6:14:47 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The "they" I was referring to is those persons who would target me to attempt to steal my firearm if that information was published. Do they have any right to that information? I don't believe so but if it would make the pacifists feel better to print it I have no objections. Maybe it would get the guns out of the hands of those 1400 felons in Florida and make Florida's licensing system that is already 99.9982 % effective in screening out felons even better.


Not quite true.

A newspaper investigation in south Florida published in 2007 found that 1,400 people given concealed-carry licenses in the first half of 2006 had earlier pleaded guilty or no contest to felonies.

Read that again. In the first 6 months of 2006, 1400 people were given licenses.

But, a better look into what they actually found...

An analysis of state records show the roughly 410,000 Floridians licensed to carry hidden guns included 1,400 who had pleaded guilty or no contest to felonies, 216 with outstanding warrants, 128 named in active domestic violence injunctions and six registered sex offenders, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported.

"I had no idea," said Baker County Sheriff Joey Dobson, who sits on an advisory panel for the state Division of Licensing, which issues permits for carrying concealed weapons. "I think the system, somewhere down the line, is broken. I guarantee you the ordinary person doesn't know (that) ... and I'd venture to guess that 160 legislators in Florida don't know that, either."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C247940%2C00.html#ixzz1RBmNVxI7

They didnt know? Then why this...

The newspaper obtained the names of people on the state's concealed weapons permit list shortly before state lawmakers sealed it from public scrutiny July 1.

They all know. There is no other reason to hide the lists.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 6:25:22 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

If you read the words of the people who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights they made it very clear that the right to bear arms was intended as a individual not a state right. For example Federalist paper #46


Just because the author forgot and I like the way James Madison writes.



_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 6:39:53 PM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
When the Constitution was written most people lived miles from their closest neighbors. There was no "police force", no National Guard. It literally was every man for himself (and his family). Many did not see their neighbors except at special events or church on sundays... if they attended a church... many just had services in their homes.

Owning a gun was a matter of life or death when you couldnt get help for hours, or even days.


Exactly. That's why I don't think the right to gun ownership should be simply based in the Second Amendment. I mean the Constitution drew a distinction between "free people" and "other people" ffs...if we can't, as a nation, make a gun policy that isn't rooted in a time when we needed a militia to protect ourselves from Native American attacks and slave uprisings, we're not responsible enough to have guns. IMO.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 6:41:02 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And you can't own a fire arm till you are 18 a handgun till 21 and owning firearms like voting is a right you give up by committing a crime. 



EXACTLY!!


some of these constitutional discussions are enough to drive a person batshit crazy.

voting is a political privilege, the ability to defend ones self is also a political privilege huh....

I think not.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 6:43:54 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		No, its a right. One you can lose due to your own actions.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 6:46:17 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
When the Constitution was written most people lived miles from their closest neighbors. There was no "police force", no National Guard. It literally was every man for himself (and his family). Many did not see their neighbors except at special events or church on sundays... if they attended a church... many just had services in their homes.

Owning a gun was a matter of life or death when you couldnt get help for hours, or even days.


Exactly. That's why I don't think the right to gun ownership should be simply based in the Second Amendment. I mean the Constitution drew a distinction between "free people" and "other people" ffs...if we can't, as a nation, make a gun policy that isn't rooted in a time when we needed a militia to protect ourselves from Native American attacks and slave uprisings, we're not responsible enough to have guns. IMO.


hey you made your kids slaves!

ever heard of a bond slave?

the second that kid hits the table s/he has a 40,000 dollar debt to pay off LOL

Try NOT joining the club and see what happens to you!

That IS slavery.

and the militia was put into place to protect the constitution, and of course defend against the britons.

Since americans are vassals again needless to say they lost.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Gun rights vs responsibilities by the government - 7/4/2011 6:47:27 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No, its a right. One you can lose due to your own actions.


oh yeh?  what "kind" of right?

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/4/2011 6:48:00 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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