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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 4:26:56 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Let's see. I can take the word of a punk who was in diapers at the time, or the word of people who actually worked in and on the program.....hmmmmmm...

I must say, your screenname is most apt.


The word of people who derived employment from Reagan's folly won't be at all slanted in favour of it, then? They won't be keen to try to portray it as being other than a pointless waste of money?

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 6:35:01 AM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

Every time they would test launch one, all the kids would be watching the show.
Interesting being  lectured by someone as to  how I had no idea they were testing them back in the 1960's, hell they were deployed then.


Been there, done that. Never actually saw a test launch, but they're all over the place in the Huntsville area. Between Redstone, the Marshall center, the Space and Rocket center, and the entire area generally being awash in aerospace lore, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting at least two launch vehicles.

Odd that you would still sing praises for SDI having firsthand experience how pointless it was even on paper.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 7:03:40 AM   
FirstQuaker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: errantgeek

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

Every time they would test launch one, all the kids would be watching the show.
Interesting being  lectured by someone as to  how I had no idea they were testing them back in the 1960's, hell they were deployed then.


Been there, done that. Never actually saw a test launch, but they're all over the place in the Huntsville area. Between Redstone, the Marshall center, the Space and Rocket center, and the entire area generally being awash in aerospace lore, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting at least two launch vehicles.

Odd that you would still sing praises for SDI having firsthand experience how pointless it was even on paper.


Interesting how you can swing Reagan's ending the Cold War on his watch to praise for Star Wars.

Burt no, I don't think you were there for the Cold War. If you had anything, ruse or otherwise, that brought it to an end short of the nuclear war that was the certain eventual outcome would have been worth it to you. And the fact we got some tangible and significant benefits out of the process as well, I do regard as a good thing.

As far as I am concerned, if all the money used for SDI was lit on fire instead of used for research, so long as it brought the Russians to the bargaining table, it was a good thing.

Edited to add BTW those "test launches" I referred to were not as you seem to think. The active batteries would select a real weapon, replace its warhead with ballast and launch one every few months, much like a cop or soldier qualifies with a weapon. The were not testing the rockets, they were practicing with them, and being tested on their proficiency.


< Message edited by FirstQuaker -- 7/8/2011 7:07:42 AM >

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 8:46:11 AM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

Interesting how you can swing Reagan's ending the Cold War on his watch to praise for Star Wars.

Burt no, I don't think you were there for the Cold War. If you had anything, ruse or otherwise, that brought it to an end short of the nuclear war that was the certain eventual outcome would have been worth it to you. And the fact we got some tangible and significant benefits out of the process as well, I do regard as a good thing.

As far as I am concerned, if all the money used for SDI was lit on fire instead of used for research, so long as it brought the Russians to the bargaining table, it was a good thing.

Edited to add BTW those "test launches" I referred to were not as you seem to think. The active batteries would select a real weapon, replace its warhead with ballast and launch one every few months, much like a cop or soldier qualifies with a weapon. The were not testing the rockets, they were practicing with them, and being tested on their proficiency.


Oh, give it up already. The closest thing Reagan did to ending the Cold War was continuing the Carter administration's logistical support and training for the Mujahideen, end of story. If you really, truly, absolutely must have someone at which to point a finger and say "he did it! :)", Leonid Brezhnev is your man and that's still a stretch of the imagination. If you must have an American at which to point a finger, take your pick: Truman, Kennan, Eisenhower, McNamara, Nixon, Kissinger. Crediting Reagan for "winning" the Cold War is somewhat akin to crediting the Packers' waterboy for winning this year's Super Bowl.

As far as the Russians being at the bargaining table? They already were thanks to detente, and it had nothing to do with Reagan. In fact, Reagan ended detente and pushed the Russians away from the bargaining table until Gorbachev became General Secretary and sought reconciliation despite Reagan's best efforts. Hell, it's a testament to Gorbachev's patience and statesmanship for putting up with Reagan's bullshit. I actually met Gorbachev once at an engagement in Louisville, KY a few years back; great guy and a greater thinker, but about as entertaining to listen to as watching snails fuck.

And, congratulations, you know what a test launch is.

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 10:28:39 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

The word of people who derived employment from Reagan's folly won't be at all slanted in favour of it, then?
No, not these people. Sorry, you can go ahead and believe that it was just a scheme to piss away billions if you want, I'll continue to believe the people who actually know.

You know the people who knew it was a ruse from the start, who were in on perpetrating the ruse, in on the planning of the ruse.....you know...people who actually KNOW rather than think they do.


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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 10:44:55 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Crediting Reagan for "winning" the Cold War is somewhat akin to crediting the Packers' waterboy for winning this year's Super Bowl.
You certainly are an ignorant little fuck aren't you? Facts are just an inconvenience to you.

You are just spouting rhetoric and buzz words. I've heard everything you've said a thousand times before, Hell I heard it all before you were in Jr. high. You're old hat dude, you have nothing but empty catch phrases and a "nothing good can be said about the other side" attitude that is typical of the inane drivel that passes for political debate with most of you Southrons.

If you actually paid attention to what had happened, rather than to ignore the inconvenient facts, you too would be able to see how well Reagan handled a very dangerous situation. And if you weren't so narrow-mindedly wedded to your ideology, you'd be able to admit that somebody from the other side had actually done something that wasn't an evil plot to destroy all that is good and holy in your world.

Now go away and do some learning, come back when you have a little bit more than "He's a Republican so he's wrong!". We have plenty of others who do that thanks, we don't need another such twat.


_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 10:47:39 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		Re: Reagan destroying the USSR via Star wars and making them spend themselves silly.

I think too much credit is given to RR and not enough to American corporations.

Levis, McDonalds, KFC, Nike, etc.

There is a saying that "Ignorance is bliss" and for 60 or so years, the Soviet people were happy because they didn't know that anything better existed.  Enter European and American tourists carrying cheap, good quality goods.

The Soviet folks realized that something better existed and they wanted it.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 7/8/2011 10:51:19 AM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 10:54:57 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

The Soviet folks realized that something better existed and they wanted it.
They knew that a looooong time ago. Surely I'm not the only one who's heard of the Kitchen Debate.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 11:02:54 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

The Soviet folks realized that something better existed and they wanted it.
They knew that a looooong time ago. Surely I'm not the only one who's heard of the Kitchen Debate.


I think they intellectually knew it but with Pravda telling them every day that "This is as good as it gets you are in the worker's utopia" they really didn't believe it until there was a flood of American tourists visiting during the late 70's/early 80's.  That is when it really sunk in for them that "Your government is lying to you. There is something BETTER that you can aspire to"

I had a friend who visited in '84 and she said that the people were so friendly but they were totally amazed at tennis shoes and levis jeans.  The travel agency even told them to take their own toilet paper.  Condoms were TREASURED.  Things that we took for granted were unheard-of luxury items to those people.  They 'knew' these things existed but with the constant lies their government and media fed them, they couldn't internalize that knowledge.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 7/8/2011 11:11:13 AM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 12:48:08 PM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

You certainly are an ignorant little fuck aren't you? Facts are just an inconvenience to you.

Now go away and do some learning, come back when you have a little bit more than "He's a Republican so he's wrong!". We have plenty of others who do that thanks, we don't need another such twat.


"He who throws the first insult has lost the argument". Considering that's actually your third round of insults, I believe I can safely go ahead and post this.



< Message edited by errantgeek -- 7/8/2011 12:49:46 PM >

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 1:52:19 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

The word of people who derived employment from Reagan's folly won't be at all slanted in favour of it, then?
No, not these people. Sorry, you can go ahead and believe that it was just a scheme to piss away billions if you want, I'll continue to believe the people who actually know.

You know the people who knew it was a ruse from the start, who were in on perpetrating the ruse, in on the planning of the ruse.....you know...people who actually KNOW rather than think they do.


No, it was a scheme to breathe a triumverate of science fiction writers' fantasies into reality.
I suppose the contractors who wasted their time and your government's money on this foolishness were lucky they weren't asked to build warp drives and generation ships as well as death rays. The scheme was supposed to produce results, despite the ridiculous goals that were set, and Reagan expected as much. Even if everybody below him and Henlein and his two bitches knew it was nonsense, the halfwits at the top of the pyramid were still expecting concrete results from the folly, rather than treating it as yet another "who can piss the highest" contest.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 2:03:25 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I'd comment on Reagan, but you liberals on here seem to have a pretty good circle jerk going on right now. Why interupt it..



Perhaps because you have nothing constructive to say?

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 2:05:45 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

"He who throws the first insult has lost the argument". Considering that's actually your third round of insults, I believe I can safely go ahead and post this.
Ah, you silly petulant little child. By your own standard you lost the argument back in post #68 when you called me a liar and questioned the intelligence of both myself and my father.

You really should try to keep track of what you say before you start making claims of who did what first.




_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to errantgeek)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 2:07:01 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I think they intellectually knew it but with Pravda telling them every day that "This is as good as it gets you are in the worker's utopia" they really didn't believe it until there was a flood of American tourists visiting during the late 70's/early 80's. That is when it really sunk in for them that "Your government is lying to you. There is something BETTER that you can aspire to"

I had a friend who visited in '84 and she said that the people were so friendly but they were totally amazed at tennis shoes and levis jeans. The travel agency even told them to take their own toilet paper. Condoms were TREASURED. Things that we took for granted were unheard-of luxury items to those people. They 'knew' these things existed but with the constant lies their government and media fed them, they couldn't internalize that knowledge.



Perhaps if you were to actually research your topic before offering your opinions you would not seem so ignorant

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 2:07:37 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		And you get your inside information from what sources?

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 2:09:25 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I think they intellectually knew it but with Pravda telling them every day that "This is as good as it gets you are in the worker's utopia" they really didn't believe it until there was a flood of American tourists visiting during the late 70's/early 80's. That is when it really sunk in for them that "Your government is lying to you. There is something BETTER that you can aspire to"

I had a friend who visited in '84 and she said that the people were so friendly but they were totally amazed at tennis shoes and levis jeans. The travel agency even told them to take their own toilet paper. Condoms were TREASURED. Things that we took for granted were unheard-of luxury items to those people. They 'knew' these things existed but with the constant lies their government and media fed them, they couldn't internalize that knowledge.



Perhaps if you were to actually research your topic before offering your opinions you would not seem so ignorant


 
Ok tommy boy.  Where am I incorrect?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 2:23:47 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

And you get your inside information from what sources?

History books, mostly. Then there's the SF writers who witnessed the squabble between Robert Heinlein and Arthur C Clarke (in which Heinlein, who was the SDI's eminence gris, took exception to Clarke pointing out that an orbital weapon could be destroyed by a bucket of nails in a counter orbit), and embittered rants from engineers who worked on this foolishness back in the day and felt that they were being expected to nail jelly to a wall with a china hammer.

There's a lot of sources which suggest that people were serious about this nonsense, sadly. On the other hand, your own assertion that it was all a big and expensive scarecrow, I've not seen any evidence for. Maybe you should name a few names yourself.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 2:56:51 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I listed the people who told me this and their qualifications. My father (a life-long diplomat and Liberal party insider) and his associates and my close friend who still works in the intelligence field. Their names wouldn't be anything you would recognize, they aren't public figures, they are the people who actually worked on the scheme, who were in on it from it's inception.

It's possible that Reagan and the others at the top thought it was for real, that there would be actual results, but the people who actually formulated the policy and implemented it didn't. According to my father, the basic idea of SDI was being kicked around long before it became public, and long before Reagan. Maybe the reason Reagan decided to go ahead with it was that he was stupid enough to believe it, but I doubt that.

You can take whichever view you want, but like I said, I'm going with that of the people who actually worked on and in the program, not as researchers, but as policy developers and implementers.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 3:02:12 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Fair enough. I'm perfectly capable of believing that Reagan was easily that stupid, based on a lot of the other crap he came out with, but maybe that's just me being unfair.

If your dad and his colleagues were that high up in the administration, may I ask what their opinion was of Heinlein and his little bitches Niven and Pournelle having such a hand in in the SDI's development? I'd have thought for anybody from an engineering background, SF writers are the last people you'd want as ideas men on a programme like that, even if one of them is incapable of shutting up for five minutes about how he used to work for NASA...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 3:32:47 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

If your dad and his colleagues were that high up in the administration, may I ask what their opinion was of Heinlein and his little bitches Niven and Pournelle having such a hand in in the SDI's development?
I don't know, I'd ask him but he's dead, as are most of his associates. This happens when discussing things that happened 30 odd years ago, the middle rank functionaries who actually did the work are now in their 80s and 90s. One day, the relevant papers in the various archives will be made public, and perhaps we will know for sure then (though given that there are still people who say Obama hasn't released his birth certificate, I suspect there will be some who won't accept whatever is revealed ).

quote:

I'd have thought for anybody from an engineering background, SF writers are the last people you'd want as ideas men on a programme like that
I agree, and don't you think that maybe, just maybe, SF writers were in such a position because it was a sham? I mean if they were serious about it, they could have found better qualified people.

Moonhead, we're agreed that it was a farce, that there was almost zero chance of it producing any of what it supposedly set out to produce. Where we are not agreed is if it was ever intended to be anything else.

Now, assuming it was a sham, it could be that it was all just an excuse to funnel billions to the military-industrial complex like the well named geek, who inadvertently conceded defeat while claiming victory, says: a massive conspiracy by the corporations (Lord I do get tired of those on my side of the aisle making this claim). Or it could be that it was what I maintain it was, the well thought out end game of a long established strategy for the destruction of the USSR.

You decide which is the more credible explanation.



_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 100
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