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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 4:54:14 AM

EternalHoH

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We don't need SDI to arm the skies to protect us from any next enemy.

We have financial WMD's now, where we control the poison pill that takes the global economy down.

Its much cheaper to build.

The profit motive distributes it at no cost.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 6:38:05 AM

FirstQuaker

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@Moonhead

That post of yours was comedy, right?

Most the new toys the military is playing with came out of the SDI research. As Arpig noted the research takeout on the program was huge. The United States never actually shut the thing down, even today Los Alamos is playing with the various aspects of it regarding directed energy weapons at a leisurely pace,. Those Tomahawks with the directional pumped fission warheads came out of it for instance. So did a bunch of the technology for the Patriots and the anti ballistic missile systems the Navy has deployed, the rail guns and the airborne lasers and such.

The Russians would not have treated an such and obvious bluff as you claim it was with any respect. Especially since at the time they were technologically ahead of the US in several key areas (and still are.) The Russian might have made a go of it themselves if they had the electronics needed. They believed however, and that was what counted.

So no the money was not wasted at all, especially considering the hideous and ongoing expense of the 'Cold War.'

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 9:44:35 AM

errantgeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

Most the new toys the military is playing with came out of the SDI research. As Arpig noted the research takeout on the program was huge. The United States never actually shut the thing down, even today Los Alamos is playing with the various aspects of it regarding directed energy weapons at a leisurely pace,. Those Tomahawks with the directional pumped fission warheads came out of it for instance. So did a bunch of the technology for the Patriots and the anti ballistic missile systems the Navy has deployed, the rail guns and the airborne lasers and such.

That's complete, utter revisionist bullshit.

The US (and USSR, by the way) were working on anti-ballistic missile systems as early as the 60s...hence why the ABMT was signed in '72, well before SDI ever reared its head. The Aegis system started in the '50s, completed in the '70s and in service by the '80s. The Patriot system started in the '60s and was deployed in the early 80s. The MIM-23 Hawk entered service in 1960. Hell, the groundwork for that goofball piece of shit GMD came out of the '60s as well. We learned infinitely more about ballistic missiles (and anti-ballistic missiles) from Gemini and Apollo than we ever did -- or will -- from frigging SDI, namely because the ABM game is all about tracking and calculation (read, early warning systems and sufficient computational power to calculate a ballistic trajectory and launch a countermeasure in enough time to intercept the warhead) and not Ultra Bad-Ass Next-Generation Multi-Billion Dollar Toys.

Everything else you mentioned are costly, bleeding edge toys with few if any battlefield applications in development merely to sate the hunger of the military-industrial complex.

< Message edited by errantgeek -- 7/7/2011 9:50:21 AM >

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 9:48:10 AM

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The main thrust of the SDI programme under Reagan was orbital anti missile devices, and they concentrated on energy weapons for that, producing absolutely fuck all of any use at ridiculous expense. The shift to antiballistic missiles came in with Bush Prime and Clinton rather than Reagan, as I'm sure you know.

Dead right that the Russians were ahead of you in this respect, though: they actually had working ground based antiballistic emplacements for a start. What do you think the SALT talks were about?

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 10:10:03 AM

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quote:

One of those "you'll never know" things that's fun to think about.

Actually I have this on pretty good authority, what would be called, in the journalistic world, several highly placed government informants (i.e. my Dad and his buddies when they were drinking and arguing). And yes, my Dad knew Reagan personally and had many contacts in the US, Canadian, British, Chinese, Russian and Japanese governments.

As well, one of the groomsmen at my wedding is highly placed analyst in the CSE. Prior to that he was with CSIS, and before that he served with the Canadian military as an intelligence operative, and with BOSS in South Africa in the same capacity.

Between them, I think these various acquaintances of mine offered a unique insight into what was really going on.

SDI was a ruse, and a brilliant one. The fact that the program never really had a chance of succeeding isn't important, the important thing is that the USSR couldn't be certain, and therefore had to do its own research. It couldn't afford not to, and couldn't afford to.

Now somebody else stated earlier on that Bush I was the man behind the curtain...entirely possible, I am certain Reagan wasn't the one behind SDI, the President is rarely the one who actually comes up with the policies. But he did play the public face of the West during this most critical phase of the Cold War, and he did do it superbly. That's what makes him a great president. The last of the great Cold Warriors.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 10:17:42 AM

Arpig

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quote:

Everything else you mentioned are costly, bleeding edge toys with few if any battlefield applications in development merely to sate the hunger of the military-industrial complex.

It was never really meant to develop weapons systems or defense systems. The research money was deliberately put into very cutting edge stuff to investigate the feasibility of using it in non-military applications. Major funding for research in areas that were basically unfundable under normal circumstances.

SDI was a deliberate use of military funds for a political/diplomatic purpose, and the money was spent to advance scientific knowledge in some rather futuristic areas that were of interest to the military and government, for more prosaic purposes. kepp in mind that you are using a similar "bleeding edge" military toy to read and make posts right now.

That is what they were after, ways to advance science in general, NOT missile defense systems.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 10:32:12 AM

SternSkipper

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quote:

Most the new toys the military is playing with came out of the SDI research. As Arpig noted the research takeout on the program was huge. The United States never actually shut the thing down, even today Los Alamos is playing with the various aspects of it regarding directed energy weapons at a leisurely pace,. Those Tomahawks with the directional pumped fission warheads came out of it for instance. So did a bunch of the technology for the Patriots and the anti ballistic missile systems the Navy has deployed, the rail guns and the airborne lasers and such.

Grandiose and exxagerated. It's fairer to say that we learned more about the failures of SDI that we did benefit from direct take-away. It's still considered one of the poorest ROIs in weapons development history.
And please get real with the outlandish claims about how Reagan just uttered the magic words in Berlin and a few years later the walls came tumbling down.
What a bunch of shit. It was a string of presidents since Kennedy and even Pope John Paul II had a LOT more to do with the fall of the Soviet Union. But you know who gets the most credit for the failure of the Soviet Union .... THE SOVIET UNION.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 11:00:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Actually I have this on pretty good authority, what would be called, in the journalistic world, several highly placed government informants (i.e. my Dad and his buddies when they were drinking and arguing). And yes, my Dad knew Reagan personally and had many contacts in the US, Canadian, British, Chinese, Russian and Japanese governments.

As well, one of the groomsmen at my wedding is highly placed analyst in the CSE. Prior to that he was with CSIS, and before that he served with the Canadian military as an intelligence operative, and with BOSS in South Africa in the same capacity.

Between them, I think these various acquaintances of mine offered a unique insight into what was really going on.

I hate to put it to you, but if your acquaintances are that high up then they would also know past and current nuclear doctrines and the internal economic and political conditions within the USSR moving into the '80s. That would mean they would know the Soviet Union was obviously and undeniably on the brink of economic and political collapse (and therefore, highly unstable) during the entire Brezhnev era, stalling its own collapse with oil and gas money alone which they promptly blew on Afghanistan and fighting a two-front cold war; which in turn made SDI a completely non-necessary use of funds in the context of winning anything related to the Cold War apart from the "dumbest possible use of funds" award. That would mean they also know the Reagan administration deviated from a playbook that was written in 1947 and revised fairly continually over the next fifteen years, and that very deviation was a high-risk, no-reward play given the doctrinal shift SDI development posed in the context of the Cold War alone, forget about economic and political realities at the time. Besides, they would also know the Soviets were ahead of us in the strategic ABM game, having developed the A-35 system in the '60s and installed it around Moscow by '71 while we were struggling with intercepting theater ballistic missiles in the '80s let alone ICBMs (which even GMD can't reliably intercept), which made SDI a game of high-tech catch-up from the onset even if it had borne fruit.

Great Cold Warrior my ass, Reagan and his administration were fools that wasted money on a dead-end project "achieving an end" as you put it that was already a foregone conclusion decades before he ever took office, and in doing so actively destabilized the very balance of power that had existed for over a decade which made that foregone conclusion such.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 12:31:45 PM

SternSkipper

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quote:

Great Cold Warrior my ass, Reagan and his administration were fools that wasted money on a dead-end project "achieving an end" as you put it that was already a foregone conclusion decades before he ever took office, and in doing so actively destabilized the very balance of power that had existed for over a decade which made that foregone conclusion such.

The one thing he's done that's had the most lasting and collateral effect on the Northeast was that Iran-Contra resulted directly in a reduction of the price of cocaine to an average of $52 a gram RETAIL.
Thank you Ronald ... I want to write congress and have em build a giant one of these in Marble.... We can find out what Larry Craig's favorite rest room was and park it outside of there...

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 1:07:47 PM

Arpig

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You are either incapable of comprehension, or simply being willfully obtuse.

I stated that the strategy, of which SDI was the culmination was begun in the 50s, so your going on about other presidents is nothing more than a side track. Yes it was begun by another administration and followed by the intervening administrations.

And yes, the USSR was on the verge of collapse, that is why they were going for arms reduction and other similar initiatives. It was determined that one last major initiative was needed to push them over the edge, and SDI was decided on. It was chosen specifically because it was so far out. It would, by definition, be hugely expensive and involve a lot of investments into very speculative fields and some pretty harebrained plans, with little chance of the Soviets actually achieving anything useful.

The Soviets simply could not ignore the program, no matter how unlikely it seemed to succeed, because, as you yourself pointed out, it pointed to a potential shift from a defensive MAD stance to an offensive first strike approach. So they simply had to launch their own SDI program. Yes, it was dangerous, but it was war. That seems to be an aspect of it that is escaping you. The Cold war was a war. A war fought in deadly earnest, relentlessly over the span of decades. Rickover proposed the strategy, it was adopted, and it came to its successful culmination under Reagan. I never claimed he originated the strategy, or even that he masterminded it , he simply was the man in charge when it entered its most dangerous final phase. And he did a superb job handling the Soviets during that phase.

Oh, and about my sources? Well the intell fellow, one of his jobs was to prepare Arabic language "leaks" of fake SDI research progress to be passed on to operatives in the Mid-East, and from there on to the Soviets, to give the impression of US progress and hopefully urge the Sovs to step up their research. These "leaks" almost invariably steered the Sovs towards those areas that were especially expensive and where US research had shown little or no progress. The actual projects were often cancelled early on, but the fiction of them was maintained and the fake "leaks" continued. The US prepared these documents, and arranged for them to get into KGB hands in various ways. One of those methods was through known foreign agents in the Arab community in Canada, and my friend was deeply involved with that particular aspect of it.

There was a lot more going on way, way, back hidden behind the scenes than even Tom Clancy imagines. The US intelligence community often uses the Canadian one to supply "reliable" leaks to opponents.

SDI was not a defense project, it was an offensive weapon of war designed to do just what it did. Complete the destruction the USSR.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 2:39:12 PM

FirstQuaker

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Arpig, true about Canada's role in disinformation. Additionally much 'soft' military research is and has been farmed out to Canada too. I think the combination is likely deliberate.

But Canada is technically ahead of the UK in a lot of military and scientific areas. Most people regard Canadians as some sort of fuzzy little clowns in their scientific and technical abilities and that is a mistake.

But SDI was not completely a ruse, as I noted making the Russians beleive actually required preducing a credible threat they could believe,. And it was not just on one example, the United States needed to be seen actaully going fully through the motions of preparing for and building this massive and expensive scheme, with the full panoply of research, military organizations to implement and control it, contracts awarded to corporations to build the parts and so on. As well spied as the world was anything less would not work to convince the Soviets that the day of MAD was over. And nobody seriously considers the Russians as rubes, technical and scientific illiterates, or idiots, in listing their flaws.

I am not any particular fan of Reagan, but give the devil his due, he was in charge when the Cold War was ended, and was the one doing the plea bargaining with the Russians regarding the shutdown of that threat to the planet. History likely will show that as his significant presidential accomplishment.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 2:53:43 PM

FirstQuaker

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Errantgeek

Yes, I am pretty aware of just how far back the ABM systems were being built, for I grew up with one of their launch sites on top of the hill behind our house.

And as Arpig noted you are posting here using the services of a wide variety of these "bleeding edge military toys" you complain of, several of which are direct spinoffs of this SDI or its ancestors.

About the only thing you got right is the targeting, control, and acquisition systems are essentially the same, regardless of what sort of tool you use to try and knock down a missile with. SDI did not appear by magic, it was merely the 80's buzzword and the new grille, taillights, and hubcaps for what had been going on and which has been continued to this day.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 3:08:23 PM

FirstQuaker

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SternSkipper

Quit putting words in my mouth, Nowhere have you seen me say anything resembling these wild eyed claims you made -
"And please get real with the outlandish claims about how Reagan just uttered the magic words in Berlin and a few years later the walls came tumbling down.
What a bunch of shit. It was a string of presidents since Kennedy and even Pope John Paul II had a LOT more to do with the fall of the Soviet Union. But you know who gets the most credit for the failure of the Soviet Union .... THE SOVIET UNION. "

There is a materiel difference between giving credit to Reagan for the diplomacy regarding the "Cold War" ending and giving him credit for the the downfall of the Soviets in Russia, though the two may be causally related, I defy you to show me anywhere I implied Reagan might have been the author of the Soviet collapse.

I now see your post regarding Reagan and cocaine prices in your area is not sarcasm.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 8:32:12 PM

SternSkipper

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quote:

SternSkipper
Quit putting words in my mouth, Nowhere have you seen me say anything resembling these wild eyed claims you made -
"And please get real with the outlandish claims about how Reagan just uttered the magic words in Berlin and a few years later the walls came tumbling down.
What a bunch of shit. It was a string of presidents since Kennedy and even Pope John Paul II had a LOT more to do with the fall of the Soviet Union. But you know who gets the most credit for the failure of the Soviet Union .... THE SOVIET UNION. "

Sorry kiddo ... the price of getting anything CLOSE to having your requests fulfilled is a profile along with the please.
I don't take potential sock-puppets seriously at all.
With that said ...

quote:

There is a materiel difference between giving credit to Reagan for the diplomacy regarding the "Cold War" ending and giving him credit for the the downfall of the Soviets in Russia, though the two may be causally related,

Oh, the relationship is casual alright... so casual they aren't worth mentioning. In fact, because the die was already cast economically before the pre-alheimer's president ever touched the Chief Justice's bible. So ANY so-called diplomacy was pure fluff. Listen, somebody had to get lucky and based on their economy, disillusionment of the military from getting their asses handed to them around the world and some SERIOUS internal strife and rebellion, the clock was ticking. And what really sucked was it gave just enough momentum to slide that cia fuck into the white house house afterward.
Here's what I will do for you. I'll have no high expectation that you'll have some kind of epiphany and realize people telling you he was a lousy president.

quote:

I defy you to show me anywhere I implied Reagan might have been the author of the Soviet collapse.

Defy all you want... any webtard who can read gets the implication. Get a profile. You want to contribute something? Come out of the closet and support the lifestyle, quit trying to tell people who live this lifestyle what you expect of them. Otherwise you will join the ranks of the other wingnuts on this board. All of whom are big fat frauds who are a stain on this culture.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 8:52:58 PM

SternSkipper

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I now see your post regarding Reagan and cocaine prices in your area is not sarcasm.

That should've been apparent when I actually posted it. That's a fact of life buddy. They took proceeds from weapons sales to Iran and used them to deliver small arms to the conrtras. It's so well documented. And I had the experience back in those days (because I was upwardly mobile and in my mid 20s to early 30s and very well connected in this time friend)... of running into a guy my age who'd been drummed out of the air natl guard who got caught flying weed across the country. He got the choice of flying guns to the contras out of a cali afb and he brought back cocaine every trip. The contras weren't marijuana guys.
That guy got double crossed and his criminal matter continued when the whole thing started blowing up on Ollie and Fawn (America's favorite fall guy couple). Incalculable lives of young people were ruined and taken away completely as a side benefit of the guy on fox they bring out as their resident hero (makes me want to fucking puke that the right portrays that drug dealer shit in any better light than Carlos Lehder or Manuel Norriega, aka Ollie North's ugly step brothers).
And when cornered over this, you hero made the laughable claim that he must've fallen asleep during the I/C briefings.... HOW FUCKING RIDICULOUS IS THAT????

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 9:50:02 PM

FirstQuaker

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No problem, anyone who is proud of deliberately misquoting anyone let alone myself can join the ranks of your peers in the invisible.

And if you have a honestly have problem (opposed to this being a continuation of your personal attacks,) with my profile, and think I have violated the terms of service with multiple profiles just to irritate you here take it up with the moderators,. In fact you are a coward, since you made the charge, if you don't.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 10:39:53 PM

errantgeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

You are either incapable of comprehension, or simply being willfully obtuse.

No, I recognize SDI for what it was, attempt to make no justification for it and brook no excuses on the matter. There was flatly no need for a "last, major initiative" after the Sino-Soviet split and restoration of Sino-American relations and major expenditures in Afghanistan, especially one which could have easily baited the Soviets into saying "fuck it, let's push the button now while we have the opportunity". There was flatly no need for federal funding for high-tech projects "under the umbrage of SDI" save the desire to keep money within the military-industrial complex, especially when the civilian sector could do it cheaper and more effectively.

Furthermore, if the Soviets needed a counter to SDI, they already had one -- on the cheap -- in the form of A-35. All they would have had to do was build more A-35 installations near strategically-important locations and maybe push the A-135 system out faster.

And, your "sources" would also know that counter-intel is cheap...real cheap. We kept the Soviets in the dark regarding the U-2 and A-12 in part with plywood and 2x4's nailed to a Jeep. You certainly don't need over a hundred billion to do it. In fact, dropping loads of federal funding into civilian sector research in the same fields with transparency would still raise the same questions on the other side.

quote:

Yes, I am pretty aware of just how far back the ABM systems were being built, for I grew up with one of their launch sites on top of the hill behind our house.

I used to spend my summers in the Huntsville, AL, area with my extended family. Two of my cousins are aerospace engineers, both for Boeing although I think one might have went to Raytheon (haven't been in touch), and a third (now retired) is a telecom engineer who worked for DARPA, all three of whom work(ed) out of Redstone.

quote:

And as Arpig noted you are posting here using the services of a wide variety of these "bleeding edge military toys" you complain of, several of which are direct spinoffs of this SDI or its ancestors.

ARPANET's original purpose was C3, originally to reinforce US second strike capability in pursuance of the MAD doctrine, and had direct battlefield- and theater-scale conventional, as well as private sector, applications. Unlike many of the other "defense funding spin-offs" you mentioned prior. Your point is?

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 11:16:17 PM

Arpig

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Let's see. I can take the word of a punk who was in diapers at the time, or the word of people who actually worked in and on the program.....hmmmmmm...

I must say, your screenname is most apt.

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/7/2011 11:21:47 PM

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quote:

Posts: 41
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Status: online No problem, anyone who is proud of deliberately misquoting anyone let alone myself can join the ranks of your peers in the invisible.
And if you have a honestly have problem (opposed to this being a continuation of your personal attacks,) with my profile, and think I have violated the terms of service with multiple profiles just to irritate you here take it up with the moderators,. In fact you are a coward, since you made the charge, if you don't.

Whatever kiddo

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RE: Ronald Reagan - 7/8/2011 12:56:08 AM

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I must have been in diapers when I first saw one of these (or at least the NikeHercules and Zeus versions) things taking off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nike

Every time they would test launch one, all the kids would be watching the show.
Interesting being lectured by someone as to how I had no idea they were testing them back in the 1960's, hell they were deployed then.

What the Canadians thought I don't know, they relied on brute force to destroy their targets, nuclear tipped, and any intercepts woudl likely be somewhere over Canada, at least from the batteries in our area.. Hopefully only a fireworks display.

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