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RE: Another reason for school choice - 7/6/2011 1:41:38 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

The national education association and it's state counterparts long ago were out of the caring for children, educating children business. This is a perfect reason to have real school choice. I can't imagine having kids in public schools in california. At least we have charter schools here in arizona so parents can escape the propaganda mills called public schools. Hell, they were bad when I was in public school back in the 60s and 70s. As a college professor, I see the results today.. not good.

I think you need at least a GED before they let you become a professor.

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 1:41:53 PM

LafayetteLady

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Sometimes I think people disagree with you because of the brash way you put things.

We may never really know how many homosexuals actually helped to forge our history. We don't say, "John Hancock, that famous white guy who signed the Declaration of Independence." Would it be appropriate to talk about Harvey Milk's sexuality? Of course, because part of the reason he did what he did was to bring about change for homosexuals. Likewise it is important to talk about the fact that Dr. King was a black man. But inventors? No I didn't learn about the guy who make the stop signal in school. Not because he was black, but because his invention was not something that fit the curriculum.

The guy who discovered plasma, Charles Drew was a black man. I didn't learn about him in school, but then again, I hate science as a whole, so maybe I just wasn't paying attention. Point is, what was his achievement? Was it being black, or making the discovery? In my world, it was what he did, not his ethnicity.

Many are saying that we "need" those separate months for all these "special" groups. Why not just mandate that these people need to be included in history class, and then fit them in during the appropriate discussions, i.e. the Battle of Antetum during the Civil War part, Dr. King during the Civil Rights portion, Harvey Milk during the politics section?

Sure a discussion can be held about how their ethnicity or sexuality was meaningful to what they did, but separating them will only serve to keep them separate. It is not a way to make things more "inclusive," but to maintain them being "exclusive."

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 1:47:18 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

if you'd read her posts you'd see that she doesn't want to be singled out or differentiated because of the lesbian thing.
but if you remove the "months" then you're counting on people to include those things in a curriculum, and just last year officials in texas went about their business taking a lot of stuff like that out.

the months are a pain in the neck, but when people already see those contributions as "not worth the same" and go out of their way to get rid of them, then without the months, what are you left with?
maybe i'm a cynic, but i just don't believe most of the people going into teaching or most of the people on school boards are all that willing to actually be inclusive.

The question was rhetorical LBP, I knew the answer.

My point is that if you have somewhere like Texas, perhaps it needs to be federally mandated that these things need to be taught.

This nation (as a whole) is changing the words in some classic literature because they don't like the words used. Personally, I hate those words and wish everyone would stop using them, but the reality is they are a part of history. When we start changing the classics (Yes, I'm talking about Mark Twain) because a special interest group finds it offensive, how long will it be before we try to eradicate history altogether and only talk about the "right" achievements?

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 1:55:09 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

maybe its just me, but during the "month" classes when I was in school, it was HIGHLIGHTING the accomplishments of those who had historically been marginalized, at best.

While I agree that the months also tend to carry a flavor of segregation, again I say . . .

It's often worked that way in the history of social change throughout the world. In order to deal with the matter of racism, you have to divide up a whole (of society) into two or more categories (e.g. black people and white people) in order even to theorise about the issue of racism. At some point, some time later, the two categories presumably aren't important anymore.

It's an unavoidable paradox, so far as I can see. You have to know when and where to start doing that initial division into separate categories, and when and where to stop doing it. Sometimes it's a very tough call.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 7/6/2011 2:00:12 PM >

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 1:58:04 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

when Termy figures out how to get the people who write up history curriculums and text books to include the achievements and history of everyone together, then he can whine about how lame a "history month" or "history unit" is.
personally, i don't believe in "history months," but i see them as necessary, because without them you get "white men came to america and ruled it. the end."

But that is his point entirely LBP. It would be one thing to make a law saying that everyone's contributions to history should be discussed. Last I checked, the Battle of Antetem (sp?) was not only taught in February.

If we found out that Thomas Edison was bi-sexual, would his achievements suddenly be removed from history? I don't think so.

The problem is that by designating a month, a week or a semester to a specific thing, we are, in essence, stating that things still should be segregated. I would prefer to see a discussion of Harvey Milk (the only single individual gay person I know of in history) take place during a discussion of politics as a whole, rather than "Gay History Day."

By bringing them all together, we cease to see them as "different." I don't want to diminish the great works of Martin Luther King, Jr. at all. Last I checked, he was for equality of ALL races. I believe time should be devoted to Dr. King in History Class, but as part of what would be at least a month of studying the Civil Rights Movement.

Again, by separating people by race or sexuality, we continue to segregate.

No, the reason is that these things were ignored and glossed over by those who wrote the history texts.

There would be no reason for designating certain days or months if there had not been a separation by race and sexuality.

Yet you want to claim that those who try to highlight the injustices are guilty.

Fucking pathetic!

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 2:02:11 PM

GreedyTop

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

maybe its just me, but during the "month" classes when I was in school, it was HIGHLIGHTING the accomplishments of those who had historically been marginalized, at best.

While I agree that the months also tend to carry a flavor of segregation, again I say . . .

It's often worked that way in the history of social change throughout the world. In order to deal with the matter of racism, you have to divide up a whole (of society) into two or more categories (e.g. black people and white people) in order even to theorise about the issue of racism. At some point, some time later, the two categories presumably aren't important anymore.

It's an unavoidable paradox, so far as I can see. You have to know when and where to start doing that initial division into separate categories, and when and where to stop doing it. Sometimes it's a very tough call.

thanks, darling, for saying it so much more eloquently than I was able to..

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 2:11:54 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canaille

Why does a person's orientation, race, gender, et cetera matter so much?

do you know how many times i've argued with people who literally said "do you ever see black people doing anything good? what were they doing while white people were discovering and creating everything?"
people REALLY believe that, because history is already segregated.

like it or not, we are not collectively at a point where we can say "omgz color/orientation/whatever doesn't matter" because it does.

Yes, but it matters every day, not just the month of February. I think we should acknowledge the accomplishments of people based upon the totality of history, not segregate that history into a special month. The contributions to this country by Black people is unmistakable, and it shouldn't be put off separate...

Ever wonder why we do not have white history month? Well, it is because our society treats whiteness as the default setting, and everything else is "other". We do not talk about white people as being "ethnic" either, for example. Do not get me wrong, it isn't that I feel white people are discriminated against because we do not have a special month...

I had this ethnic identity class last year and we were discussing these things and someone brought up that there was no "white student association" out in the quad during club week, and I pointed out they just overlooked it, it goes by the name "Young Republicans"

... everyone laughed their ass off at that one.

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 2:15:08 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's an unavoidable paradox, so far as I can see. You have to know when and where to start doing that initial division into separate categories, and when and where to stop doing it. Sometimes it's a very tough call.

That's it in a nutshell for me. I think it is time to stop, or at least force inclusion in "general" history. It's my opinion that making it part of "everyday" history, we will be admitting that the differences are less as opposed to more.

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 2:20:25 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Yes, but it matters every day, not just the month of February. I think we should acknowledge the accomplishments of people based upon the totality of history, not segregate that history into a special month. The contributions to this country by Black people is unmistakable, and it shouldn't be put off separate...

Ever wonder why we do not have white history month? Well, it is because our society treats whiteness as the default setting, and everything else is "other". We do not talk about white people as being "ethnic" either, for example. Do not get me wrong, it isn't that I feel white people are discriminated against because we do not have a special month...

I had this ethnic identity class last year and we were discussing these things and someone brought up that there was no "white student association" out in the quad during club week, and I pointed out they just overlooked it, it goes by the name "Young Republicans"... everyone laughed their ass off at that one.

Sit down JO, because we actually agree on this one.

When something that was developed because the opportunity didn't exist without it, that's fine. However, when something continues after the opportunities are available (Ms. Black USA is a good example) within the existing structure, it no longer is useful, but serves to continue others believing "separate" may be better.

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 2:59:31 PM

DomImus

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Am I the only one who sees the incredible irony of a state that won't allow gays to marry legally but has voted to teach gay history?

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 3:01:37 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

when Termy figures out how to get the people who write up history curriculums and text books to include the achievements and history of everyone together, then he can whine about how lame a "history month" or "history unit" is.
personally, i don't believe in "history months," but i see them as necessary, because without them you get "white men came to america and ruled it. the end."

Correction,white ~straight~ men.The end.

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 3:06:57 PM

Canaille

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quote:

Ever wonder why we do not have white history month? Well, it is because our society treats whiteness as the default setting, and everything else is "other". We do not talk about white people as being "ethnic" either, for example.

That depends on where you live... In her first year of school, my daughter was taught about MLK Day and Cinco de Mayo (taught wrong on that one, I had to get out a book and teach her about the Battle of Puebla), but the teachers never mentioned President's Day and Columbus Day.

quote:

Do not get me wrong, it isn't that I feel white people are discriminated against because we do not have a special month...

My problem with this was that I feel that the LGBT community is being discriminated against in a, granted, more subtle way, but still discriminated against. Tell me what someone did that makes them important to history, regardless of anything else. I don't care if they chased the stableboy or the chambermaid. It doesn't cheapen or enhance their accomplishments.

I understand the ideals behind reparation, revisionist history, apologists... I get the urge. I really do. It's a desire to improve the world around us, to make it what we feel it should have been all along. I just believe that we do those that have been done an injustice further injustice by highlighting the differences, rather than accepting that they're people, people in the past (and some now) are still idiots, and teaching our children that those differences don't really exist.

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 3:17:43 PM

BamaD

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I was sitting in a college history class one day and a fellow student stated that black people built this country, white people didn't do anything. The majority of the class agreed with him, in fact virtually everyone other than the professor and I did. It would seem that Black History month did it's job.

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 3:24:47 PM

GreedyTop

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well, if you look at as the white folks did the delegating, while the black folks did the labor... .(back when the country was young and most still felt that those who werent caucasian were less than human)...

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 3:32:10 PM

BamaD

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I assume you meant that as humor.

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 3:39:43 PM

Owner59

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Most of the actual work was done by African Americans,Indians,Mexicans and imported labor, like the Chinese.

Whites did owned most everything, tho.

So maybe that`s where the confusion comes from.

And in all those groups, there was certainly the average percentage of gays represented.

They were there too..

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 3:46:18 PM

BamaD

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So as long as they weren't white they can claim to have built the country.

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 4:06:26 PM

Termyn8or

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FR

Interesting. Marginalized in history, think I read that.........

Who were the the people on the team at Bell Labs who invented the transistor without which none of us would be able to communicate ? Were they Black or White ? Were they Gay or Straight ? Did they come from Asia, Europe, Africa, China, Antarctica, or heavens forbid, the US ? Did they wear glasses ? Were they fat ? Did they walk with a limp ? Not one of you knows even one of their names nor how many there were, and neither do I. Before you run off to wiki, think about marginalization. That invention was the one single most important advance in technology ever. We don't even have one name.

Who decides what goes into the history books ? White Men ? At one time I would say so. Were they Straight White Men ? That's a bit more doubtful, and I don't mean to say unlikely, but if they were Gay we would have alot less of a chance of knowing about it. So even if it can be proven that the achievements by Blacks were marginalized on purpose, and that justifies Black history month, it still does not compute. You can't hide the color of your skin, other things you can, even gender. Years ago it was discovered that a Woman had lived almost her whole life as a Man. She was a great Husband, the Wife was told that "he" couldn't have sex because of a war injury. Even she didn't know until the coroner told her. Did her Husband do anything else noteworthy ?

Now let's say the writers and editors of history texts were given intense "sensitivity training" or something. They seek out accomplishments by Blacks to make sure they are included. What, are accomplishments by Blacks so noteworthy because...... because why ? Were they inferior ? If someone considered something I did noteworthy because I was considerded inferior I would spit in their eye.

I became one of the best in my field, really. And I am a highscool dropout. Is my success somehow enhanced by my lack of formal education ? When 155 applicants applied for the job at Electra-Sound (they're on the web) and that became my job, if you say that it was more noteworthy because I am self educated, then you take away from all those who did the same or similar, if they had a formal education. They applied themselves, is less credit due ?

Swords are sharpened on both sides. Discriminate all you want, just remember it works both ways. Is achieving despite being discriminated against somehow better ? Perhaps. Who has achieved more, a self made millonaire or someone born into old money ? Does either justify enhanced acclaim ? Of all the billions who have lived, are they to be remembered for their contraptions or their conscience ?

ETA : Now that I think about it I do know one of their names (the transistor inventors)

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 6:37:55 PM

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California is on verg of bankruptcy. Brown rejected the last budget the Assembly sent him. Many say the current budget will not go, it based on the thought that a flood of funds will land in Sacamento. Thousands of lost their jobs. Public Schools are closing due to a lack of money. Many State Retired have lost their pensions. And this is the answer from the State Assembly....they fixed all the problems....

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RE: CA lawmakers pass bill to teach gay history - 7/6/2011 6:40:07 PM

GreedyTop

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and your post has.. what? .. to do with the op?

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