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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 6:15:29 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Bert,
It's not about making a "lifestyle" work.  It's about making a relationship work.
sunshine


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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 7:23:22 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		She's got huge issues dealing from past relationships that she hasn't addressed nor resolved. Her response to being denied is to throw a tantrum like a three year old.

You could start treating her like a three year old. If she behaves according to expectations, she gets a gold star and an immediate small treat. If she doesn't, she doesn't get any privileges that day. This might address the behavior but not the underlying issues.

For that, she needs therapy. I strongly suggest doing both, but the therapy is essential. As much because her parents obviously weren't good at their job or they would have protected her from the guy she met at 14.


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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 7:37:39 AM   
DecadentDesire


Posts: 234
Joined: 6/18/2011
Status: offline 		I'm kind of struggling to answer your post, because it's very hard to narrow it down to specific questions. You've presented your perspective of the relationship and it would help if you could provide more objective examples.
There is just not enough information to present to provide anything beyond general "one-liner" type advice.

However, I will address what I think is the underlying issue and suggest ways that I've developed to help deal with it. Whether or not this will help you or not, I don't know. I'm shooting a little blind here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bertandlaerie
I think (and she can come on in the morning and correct me if I am wrong) the question she meant to ask was how to overcome that immediate response of "but that's now how I'd do things" and trust that the world as we know it will not end if things aren't done the way that she thinks is right for her self-interest.


quote:

the other major concern that I have heard from laerie is that she's afraid of losing herself in her submission, much like she did in her previous relationship.


Based on this and what laerie wrote, the issue seems to be that she is afraid of her opinion and input in the relationship not being heard or valued and afraid that overtime her value to you as an individual will be lost or taken for granted.

Perfectly normal. I have yet to date, be with or talk to a submissive girl who did NOT have this concern or fear. In fact, I just discussed this issue last night with a girl I am getting to know.

My advice to her remains the same. She needs to work on communicating her concerns and opinions in a non-negative way and also needs to work on just relaxing a bit, loosening up, and having faith.

My advice to you is a little different. I don't know really anything about your style as a dominant or leader so I am having to make some assumptions here. Take it with a degree of salt, because I could be way off the mark.

One, you need to make a point to address her concerns and opinions directly. Don't just shovel them over with the "You just need to trust me" card. Trust is built over the time by providing a foundation for that trust to exist. Up to then, it's just faith.

Deal with her concern. Explain your logic and why you came to that decision. In the case of the $300 dollars, explain why going out and spending it isn't going to be detrimental to your finances.

It not only shows that you value her opinion and are considering her input in the relationship, but provides something to help soothe her worries and make it easier for her to trust your judgement in the future.

You might do this and she might still disagree. Well, in that case, it's a matter of her taking a deep breathe and letting go, accepting that she doesn't agree on the decision, but she made the choice to let you lead and she needs to allow you to do.

Two, develop a style that works her input into the decision-making process. That's my own personal style of leadership. The final decision rests on me, but that doesn't mean my girl's opinion can't be apart of it.

For example, we're going out to dinner. I'll have her pick out 2-3 outfits that she wants to wear and lay them out on the bed. From that selection, I'll make the decision on what her to wear based on what looks best with my outfit and what I feel like seeing her in.

In that scenario, I using her input and opinion to narrow down the range of options and then from that subset, making the final decision. Alternatively, I'll also sometimes work in reverse. For example, picking the place to eat for dinner. I know I want either italian or japanese for dinner, but don't prefer one over the other. I'll ask her preference and then allow that input to influence my final decision.

With this kind of style, I'm focusing on direction and guidance over direct control. I'm allowing her to have input and influence on the course of the relationship and thus by doing so, reinforcing that her opinions and thoughts are valuable to me. However, in the process, I am not trading what makes me the dominant in the relationship; the final decision is always still mine.

Now, whether or not, any of this is helpful, I don't know. If I have totally missed the mark, please feel free to explain why and be more specific so I can revise my advice.


< Message edited by DecadentDesire -- 7/16/2011 7:41:21 AM >

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(in reply to Bertandlaerie)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 8:06:53 AM   
coookie


Posts: 541
Joined: 10/25/2010
Status: offline 		OP when you go to the laundry mat you will find a couple who are folding towels. One will inevitably be folding the towels wrong. I have a way that i fold my towels and when someone helps me fold it tweaks me out a wee bit but i wont go as far as telling them they are doing it wrong or refolding it when no one is looking. Why? Because the world will not end. Don't get me wrong, those towels are not going to fit in the cupboard properly lol but the world will not end!

I am telling you this for a reason. Are you ready? The way i live my life works and I have a reason for doing most of what i do. I am quite set in my way as a result of outcomes and along comes N. He doesn't do anything as i do, and yet somehow he has manages 32 years of life. I was baffled as well. Not doing things my way, it seems, worked out okay for him.

The advice to "make the leap" was a good one. I just didn't know how to do that so i had to start small with towels and it quickly has spread to most areas. I am still sarcastic and witty (and downright funny =p until my ass pays) but there is a time and place for it.

Good luck to both of you

(in reply to Laerie)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 9:26:46 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I just spent half an hour quoting and replying to bits and bobs in your post only for it to disappear :(
Now DD has said a few similar things that I'd expressed :)

The things you mentioned STILL happen here...with us, after many years. There is no *perfect D/s situation*.....there's only the best one you have made.

I'll squish my lost post as best I can.....

M backs down, even now, after many years. It's the best path given some situations, sometimes it's best to let things *ride*. It's simply NOT a big deal.

BUT, taking into account Laerie's post, she has heard from one of her friends that *as a sub you have the easy job*... I happen to agree with her when she says * ummm, no*

It's as easy as the relationship, the understanding, the patience and the overall situation with you has to be.

I don't spend much time bemoaning the moments that M is less than fantastic. Seriously, he's stellar so much of the time, he's been at it with me for years and years...but all the same.......sometimes it's all to pot and we have to talk and sort the roots of it out.

I don't *forget* my place...but it's not about ME and my *place*...it's always been about US and what WE do to have a contented D/s relationship and the route to that isn't necessarily neat and tidy.

Regards, agirl




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(in reply to Bertandlaerie)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 2:41:58 PM   
coookie


Posts: 541
Joined: 10/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I just spent half an hour quoting and replying to bits and bobs in your post only for it to disappear :(




Augh the same thing happened to me right above you and i rewrote in a hurry lol so i am hoping it made sense when it came out!

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 3:17:58 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Laerie
I said "Ooh, so let's make sure we blow it all right away!" I probably should have gotten paddled for that comment, but instead we got into a looong discussion about trust. I trust him with my life, but sometimes I feel like I know what's better for us as a couple...should I bite my tongue, learn to respectfully disagree, or what? Obviously I should leave the bitch-hulk in her cage, but I still don't know how to just relax and go with the flow/submit.


YES, learn to respectively disagree. Not because you're a sub, but because you're a person with a partner. Being a (self-described) bitch to your partner - no matter what your power dynamics are - isn't going to nurture a relationship or build a partnership. Being respectful of each other, valuing each others' opinions, and civilly disagreeing when you have a difference of opinions will.

As far the other issue goes, it just takes time to learn to let go and accept decisions that you disagree with. I think it's natural to feel resistance for a while, even if you want to submit, and also to feel frustrated by that resistance. Be patient with yourself while you adjust.

(in reply to Laerie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 3:35:23 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Laerie
I said "Ooh, so let's make sure we blow it all right away!" I probably should have gotten paddled for that comment, but instead we got into a looong discussion about trust. I trust him with my life, but sometimes I feel like I know what's better for us as a couple...should I bite my tongue, learn to respectfully disagree, or what? Obviously I should leave the bitch-hulk in her cage, but I still don't know how to just relax and go with the flow/submit.


YES, learn to respectively disagree. Not because you're a sub, but because you're a person with a partner. Being a (self-described) bitch to your partner - no matter what your power dynamics are - isn't going to nurture a relationship or build a partnership. Being respectful of each other, valuing each others' opinions, and civilly disagreeing when you have a difference of opinions will.

As far the other issue goes, it just takes time to learn to let go and accept decisions that you disagree with. I think it's natural to feel resistance for a while, even if you want to submit, and also to feel frustrated by that resistance. Be patient with yourself while you adjust.


Lovely advice and some I heartily agree with. It does take time, more for some than for others.

To no one's shock I do not submit easily or quickly. The man I am with is intelligent enough to know that having expectations for me to always be respectful is just not rational thinking. Most of the time, it's not an issue. He demands my input; and frankly can't always be fussed as to how it is delivered.

But sometimes, well it is an issue, b/c he wants what he wants, and he needs me to get that.

Fortunately my man gets this look. It's the shut the fuck up and do what I say look. It puts me in an immediate submissive mode.

It does not happen often. So far it has always worked.

I think as a couple, if he didn't have that look, we'd have issues, b/c I would start running over him in ways he doesn't like. And well, he's a dom, in the long run, that ain't gonna work.

Okay, what's my point here? That is perfectly fine to have a fairly loose dom/sub dynamic, as long as it works for you both. And part of having it work *for me* means someone who can metaphorically jerk my leash and make me heel, no questions asked.

Now, I think if he did that several times a day, it would lose it's potency so to speak. It works b/c he only does it when he means it.




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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 5:30:09 PM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Sorry, I just would prefer the sarcasm to the cloying, "I'm so glad, blah, blah, blah." Just say what you mean the way that comes naturally.

But then again, I'm not your average Dom.


That's the type of relationship I have had, as well. I'm sarcastic. He loves that about me and wouldn't want it any other way. There comes a point, when I get *the look* that I stop, but we both banter back and forth. It's what we do, and it's fun.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 7:05:13 PM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		Op,
There's a difference between 'playful' sarcasm and hurtful bitchy cut-throat sarcasm. Frankly, I think you are smart enough to know the difference. In my opinion this has little to do with communication skills, relationship issues, etc and a lot more to do with respect. Part of being a submissive is learning how to respect your dominant and communicate your point of view to him in a respectful manner. Learning how to say things to him in a respectful manner rather than to throw a two year old temper tantrum about things or to just be a down right bitch about things! No offense intended but passive aggressive communication breaks up so many relationships and then people want to blame it on the D/s stuff when the reality is one or both of the parties was not mature enough to own their own issues.
From my point of view it looks like you have security issues surrounding financial issues. Maybe you two should renegotiate who is in charge of paying the bills. Or maybe you two should talk about communicating more about when what bill gets paid when. Just because someone is submissive doesn't mean she just walks around blindly not knowing anything about the finances for the relationship which she is in. Something in this is not working for you, I would encourage you to figure out what it is and address it quickly.
Kali


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~~Sweedish Proverb


(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 8:29:00 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline 		If trust isn't the issue...as Laerie and Bert have suggested...it could just be an issue of learning self control. We all have insecurities and times when we let those insecurities get the best of us, when the fear of a potential downfall or negative consequence causes us to act out in unnecessarily mean ways, like a cornered kitten. For example, a fear of money issues could lead us to snap out at our dom or partner. I find that the best way to deal with these insecurities is to train yourself to consciously recognize them, which is something the individual may need help with but, ultimately, must do on his/her own.

I try and work my insecurities out this way: If I feel myself begin to feel angry or irritable, I consciously bring it to the forefront of my mind and say 'I am really angry right now.' Then I ask myself, "Why?" Once I have acknowledged that I am angry and why I am angry, I am less likely to let that anger control me and am less likely to hurt the people I love by snapping out at them. This is primarily because I reasoned out my feelings, understood them, and made myself consciously realize that it would be unfair to snap at people because of my bad day at work or insecurities. Finally, if I feel like snapping out at my dom, I try to tell him. I'll say, "I'm sorry if I sound irritable today. Such and such happened, and I am really upset." Often times, just saying it our loud is enough to deflate me. Eventually, recognizing when your being unreasonable, and letting your partner know, becomes a habit that can help both of you. And when your forced to voice your insecurities on a regular basis, you begin to realize how ridiculous some of them sound outside of the confines of your own imagination. So, overall, it helps you become a more reasonable, clear headed person.

Other than that, I'd follow DD's advice. All subs are concerned about losing themselves in their submission. It's an issue I am contemplating right now...how far do I really want to take this relationship? How much control do I want to give up? What will the results be? Being a good dom means taking her opinions into account, and letting her know that you will, so there is no need to get aggressive and snap. Let her know that a nice, polite..."Here are my concerns...." is enough to get your attention. And when she does snap, let her know how disrespected it makes you feel. Sarcasm, when not done in a playful manner, can really put rifts in a relationship, vanilla and kinky.

(in reply to Kalista07)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/16/2011 10:08:03 PM   
Laerie


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bertandlaerie

the issue we both face is overcoming our fears/doubts about this lifestyle. I think (and she can come on in the morning and correct me if I am wrong) the question she meant to ask was how to overcome that immediate response of "but that's now how I'd do things" and trust that the world as we know it will not end if things aren't done the way that she thinks is right for her self-interest.

So we're kind of stuck. Beyond breaking the inadvertent "training" we've provided ourselves over the last four years, the other major concern that I have heard from laerie is that she's afraid of losing herself in her submission, much like she did in her previous relationship.


It's crazy how well Bert knows me. He found the root of the entire issue before I could even formulate it in my head (graduate students...smh). We know all of the things we need to do, but we seem to get stuck on the big issues time and time again. Basically, it all looks good on paper, it's just putting it into practice is truly proving to be difficult (I feel like I need flashcards). It all comes down to me being scared of being that vulnerable, even though I know that he would never hurt me. Regardless, it's still frightening to let the walls down. I'm on the road, though :)

DD: You hit the nail on the head. “She needs to work on communicating her concerns and opinions in a non-negative way and also needs to work on just relaxing a bit, loosening up, and having faith.” Easier said than done, but I'm trying!

coookie: I'm the same way with towels!! crazy... thanks for the relatable story

agirl: glad I'm not the only sub that struggles with this!

Chatte: Bert has a look too! it's kinda scary...you're right when you say it's a "shut the fuck up and do what I say look" haha

Thank you all for your posts and advice. I know I have to take that leap of faith and I'm getting closer every day. I truly appreciate the time you all took to help me! I hope one day I'll figure this all out and be able to help someone in return.

(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 12:02:34 AM   
BlackTigerDragon


Posts: 180
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline 		Just saying...am I the only one here that DOESN'T find the OPs comment 'disrespectful'?
But then I'm not the kind of person to wet my pants over one sarcastic comment. I would probably laugh if my partner said something like that, and think it was a very good point.
And if I had a sub that talked like a Disney Movie I would probably dump the sub and use the $300 to hire a male hooker to play my play station games with

(in reply to Laerie)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 12:13:25 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		No, several people have commented that it was fine... or didn't comment at all.

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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to BlackTigerDragon)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 12:26:03 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Only a couple of people actually said "You need to stop talking the way you do."  Even her dude didn't bring it up as an issue.

Here's what people said who don't think it's that much of an issue or are on the fence about it:

Page 1:
Ask questions, and think hard. Don't bury your suspicions on the pretext of "he's a dom; I'm a sub.
I'd have laughed, kissed you, and thanked you for doing your job by pointing it out to me when you think I'm making a mistake... I just would prefer the sarcasm to the cloying, "I'm so glad, blah, blah, blah." Just say what you mean the way that comes naturally.
Master would be disappointed in me if I didn't tell him when I think he's making a mistake. He wouldn't have appreciated the sarcasm, but he would have appreciated the sentiment.
I would not be with someone who did not value my honesty or differences of opinion.

Page 2
He demands my input; and frankly can't always be fussed as to how it is delivered.
I'm sarcastic. He loves that about me and wouldn't want it any other way.


As to this little gem:
quote:


All subs are concerned about losing themselves in their submission.


Is that right?  Wow.  I think many people fear losing themselves in LOVE and in RELATIONSHIPS.... People fear vulnerability.  That's not about submission, His Pet.  That's about humanity.  Here, have some research: 
http://www.wimp.com/expandingperception/

That your name is about someone else rather than you suggests that this is YOUR issue.  Kindly don't dump your stuff on me and others.  Thanks much.
sunshine



< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 7/17/2011 12:28:21 AM >

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 1:50:54 AM   
Palliata


Posts: 371
Joined: 8/9/2010
Status: offline 		Others have said it, but admitting you think he's making a mistake isn't your problem. Your problem is you were an insufferable bitch about it. Telling me I'm making a mistake will get you kissed. Being impolite about it will earn you pain. Work on expressing yourself in an acceptable manner, not in blinding yourself to the realities you exist under.

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I speak not of The Way, but only My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

I'm male. I know it sounds female. Work with me.

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 3:03:14 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Palliata - that's a fair point for YOUR relationship.  That all isn't an issue in their relationship. They are just getting into this and trying to figure their way around things.


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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to Palliata)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 5:15:46 AM   
DecadentDesire


Posts: 234
Joined: 6/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Laerie
DD: You hit the nail on the head. “She needs to work on communicating her concerns and opinions in a non-negative way and also needs to work on just relaxing a bit, loosening up, and having faith.” Easier said than done, but I'm trying!


Your right. It isn't the easiest thing in the world by a long shot. Don't think that my simplistic approach to it is trivializing the difficulty. It's not. I just find that it's something that needs to be kept simple and not over-thought. Thinking and worrying too much can be the biggest problem.

As a dominant, I'm not really all that qualified to talk about surrender. Any submissive here can provide far better first hand experience then I can. There is good threads on the topic if you make use of the search function.

However, if you had to ask me, the best explanation I have heard is that it's a zen thing. It's like how you react when it starts raining when you have outdoor plans. You don't try and fight the rain. You know there isn't a thing in the world you can do about it. You just accept it and let it go.

I wish I could remember who wrote that, because the credit isn't mine.

I hope that helps.


_____________________________

I was once a Rabbit, driven Mad, by the Decadence of his Desires...

(in reply to Laerie)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 9:25:28 AM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
quote:

“She needs to work on communicating her concerns and opinions in a non-negative way and also needs to work on just relaxing a bit, loosening up, and having faith.”
no, he needs to stop worrying about being dominant and start fucking dominating. who fucking cares if she was a little snarky, was his widdle domy ego bwoosed? awww poow widdle boy.  grow the fuck up!

it's this stupid attitude that submissives have to be obsequious little wormy fucks who don't dare speak their minds openly that makes so many dominants look like such ridiculous fucking posers. they're just god damned cowards who are afraid of being confronted with their own stupidity if you ask me.

christ on a cupcake! my grandma's neutered tomcat has more balls than that, for fuck's sake.


_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to DecadentDesire)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 9:36:42 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HisPet21


All subs are concerned about losing themselves in their submission.


Not even close. I have never been more me than I have in these past three years with him and in this relationship.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 40
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