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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 10:14:32 AM

Laerie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisPet21

All subs are concerned about losing themselves in their submission.

Not even close. I have never been more me than I have in these past three years with him and in this relationship.

she's getting slammed for semantics. relax people. i'm sure she didn't mean "all subs", but "many subs"...i know i struggle with this!!

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 10:38:15 AM

DecadentDesire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

“She needs to work on communicating her concerns and opinions in a non-negative way and also needs to work on just relaxing a bit, loosening up, and having faith.”
no, he needs to stop worrying about being dominant and start fucking dominating. who fucking cares if she was a little snarky, was his widdle domy ego bwoosed? awww poow widdle boy. grow the fuck up!

it's this stupid attitude that submissives have to be obsequious little wormy fucks who don't dare speak their minds openly that makes so many dominants look like such ridiculous fucking posers. they're just god damned cowards who are afraid of being confronted with their own stupidity if you ask me.

christ on a cupcake! my grandma's neutered tomcat has more balls than that, for fuck's sake.

Sorry, we will have to agree to disagree.

I fail to see how encouraging people to express things in a constructive way amounts to repressing their opinion. With a little tact and empathy, I manage to express what I am really thinking in a way that doesn't put the people I care about on the defensive or feeling bad about themselves.

I find the idea that "speaking your mind openly" amounts to blurting out the first, possibly hurtful and destructive, thing that enters into our minds with no filter to be an immature viewpoint.

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 11:01:31 AM

Bertandlaerie

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Thanks all for your interesting replies. I agree with most of what has been said here. As has been said here, there are two distinct issues going on. First, laerie is looking for a way to let her guard down, to relax and enjoy the ride, to be able to move beyond the self protective, knee-jerk responses. Second, if I expect her to do that, I need to be more consistent, stern etc. with her. This is beginning to look like the chicken and egg paradox as it seems we're both waiting for the other to act and galvanize us into action. I can't speak for what laerie needs in order to be able to "take the leap," I don't think even she knows. Hence, the very reason she started this thread. She wants nothing more than to be able to let her guard down and find solace in submitting. The rare periods she has been able to have been blissful for us both, but life has a funny way of interfering and snapping us back to reality. We're really trying to find ways to develop our dynamic in such a way that it's a constant presence, a tool that provides consistency for us both and allows us to face the challenges of daily life as a team. For those that have alluded to problems in our relationship that are reflected in the struggles we're facing, you're absolutely right. While there is no need to make the details public knowledge, we've put each other through hell and back throughout the last four years due to insecurity, miscommunication, and immaturity. One of the primary reasons we're venturing into this lifestyle is for the stability and intimacy that it has provided us thus far and that we've seen it provide to other people. The lifestyle dynamic is not the relationship, rather it is a tool that we're attempting to use to continue to make our relationship better. We're simply stuck at effectively taking the next step.

That said, I find it necessary to throw my two cents in on some of the perspectives shown here. This post never was meant to be about "my feelings being hurt" or even the lack of respect that many have alluded to. While I was admittedly shocked by the vehemence of her response that evening, my concern (and reason for the discussion she alluded to) was about the underlying reasons for her response. I was less interested in having been disrespected and more in why she felt that was an appropriate response in that situation, especially since it was fairly out of character. Could I have been more "dominant" in my response to the situation? Sure, I could've "dominated" her and bent her to my will through manipulation or force. I could've demanded she get dressed and taken her out even though she might've sulked through dinner. Hell, if I wanted to be even more "dominant," I could've punished her for being disrespectful. However, would either of those solutions have done anything productive for our relationship? They may have worked as temporary solutions, but the underlying concerns would still remain. So while I appreciate the vitriol that some feel the need to spout, those over-simplified analyses of poser doms and obsequious subs are less than helpful. Whether it makes me a "poser dom" or not, I will always seek out the underlying causes of anger/disrespect/disobedience and do my best to move us past them instead of "dominating" her into repressing them in order to establish a false sense of security in lieu of actual stability.

The issues we've presented have never been directly about disrespect or trust, but rather as I pointed out, about how to take the next step. Going back to the original scenario presented, the sides of the issue were not spend vs save, but rather getting out of the apartment for a night out vs. saving for something else down the road. And for those that think I'm misrepresenting the scenario, I'll provide you with another nugget of information that was left out of the original scenario: she suggested taking a road trip to go shopping at a large mall two hours away the next day, which certainly would've done more damage to my checking account than a nice dinner! Given that we're students, money will always be "tight" to some extent, but certainly not so much so that we need never leave our apartment lest we spend any of it.

Anyway, I appreciate all the responses we've received so far. Whether I agree with your individual perspectives or not, you've all given something to think about and clarify in each of our posts. It is certainly nice to know that there are other people out there who have faced/are facing similar issues and that there is support for those of us who are just starting our journey down this road.

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 12:52:01 PM

HisPet21

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quote:

Is that right? Wow. I think many people fear losing themselves in LOVE and in RELATIONSHIPS.... People fear vulnerability. That's not about submission, His Pet. That's about humanity...That your name is about someone else rather than you suggests that this is YOUR issue. Kindly don't dump your stuff on me and others. Thanks much.

Too true, Sunshine. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Precision in language is key, and I must admit, I didn't construct my sentence as well as I should have. I meant that "many subs, including me, fear losing themselves in their submission." I certainly didn't mean all! There is, after all, no such thing as a cookie cutter sub. That being said, it sounds as if I have hit a button or offended you in some way, and for that, I apologize. My statement was in no way intended to push you under an umbrella of generalizations, and I certainly didn't post what I did with the explicit goal of "dumping my stuff on you." I just wanted Laerie to know that, if indeed she had some fear of giving up control, she wasn't alone and had no reason to feel guilty for it. A lot of people have similar fears, and we all manage to get through them some how.

Oh, and same goes for Aileen. My apologies if I offended you in any way! :)

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 12:56:29 PM

HisPet21

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Also, Bert and Laerie, I just wanted to say how nice it is too see a couple on here who are actively seeking advice from others, can articulate themselves sin something other than text speak, and can take criticism...even unwarranted, rude criticism...maturely. Welcome to the forums, and to CM in general. It seems that you are both able and willing to make this dynamic work for you, but it will most likely take time. Once again, welcome!

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 1:21:25 PM

Tristan

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It sounds like your inconsistency is at least partly the result of what you describe as her "self protective, knee-jerk responses". I'm not sure that you can be entirely consistent in these situations. A healthy D/s relationship is consensual. You need to feel as if you are enforcing mutually agreed to rules when it sounds like she has temporarily moved out of a submissive mind set with the implied assumption that she temporarily removed her consent. I don't think enforcing rules at this time is going to be effective or even healthy.

If I'm understanding what you both describe correctly, maybe it's best to wait until the passions have cooled, and then calmly discussing the situation and any consequences of violating mutually agreed upon rules. If you can do this consistently and calmly, it might have the results that you both desire. Your challenge is going to be calmly removing yourself from the conflict without escalating it. It sounds like there are a lot of emotional issues that could be difficult to ignore during the heat of the conflict. "Self protective" often means insecurities, and insecurities often mean personal attacks.

However, I could be completely miss-reading your posts so feel free to comment if I'm off base.

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 2:16:48 PM

Laerie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

It sounds like your inconsistency is at least partly the result of what you describe as her "self protective, knee-jerk responses". I'm not sure that you can be entirely consistent in these situations. A healthy D/s relationship is consensual. You need to feel as if you are enforcing mutually agreed to rules when it sounds like she has temporarily moved out of a submissive mind set with the implied assumption that she temporarily removed her consent. I don't think enforcing rules at this time is going to be effective or even healthy.

If I'm understanding what you both describe correctly, maybe it's best to wait until the passions have cooled, and then calmly discussing the situation and any consequences of violating mutually agreed upon rules. If you can do this consistently and calmly, it might have the results that you both desire. Your challenge is going to be calmly removing yourself from the conflict without escalating it. It sounds like there are a lot of emotional issues that could be difficult to ignore during the heat of the conflict. "Self protective" often means insecurities, and insecurities often mean personal attacks.

However, I could be completely miss-reading your posts so feel free to comment if I'm off base.

YES, I totally agree with that. We're also both excited for the end result so we're trying really hard to get there right away and may be over-analyzing small things jusssttt a little ;)

But I do get really overwhelmed when we do have an issue, and the overload of analysis that I get from him just makes me shut down (my little brain can't handle his). I have learned that I must remove myself for a little while to clear my head, otherwise I say things that I don't mean and hurt us even more. I'm much more rational when I've had a good night's sleep too :)

Thank you!

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 3:43:13 PM

Tristan

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Laerie,

There is nothing wrong with postponing a discussion until you both are ready. I know how difficult it is to postpone a discussion and then come back to it later. Maybe it would work if you both agree on a time for the discussion. This is something you will both need to work out.

My sense is that you both want the same thing, and you just need to find common expectations. All I can say is take things very slowly maybe addressing one issue at a time.

As for you concern about losing yourself in submission, there is nothing unsubmissive about honestly talking about your needs and desires with your partner. You need to feel that you are important and being understood in a D/s relationship at least as much as in a vanilla relationship. Trust is developed, I think, when both feel listened to and understood, and the dominant partner is making decisions for the benefit of the relationship. It sounds like you both have the desire and ability to do this.

Good luck!
Tristan

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 3:45:45 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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I want to say something about the "losing yourself in submission" idea, something I know a lot about from a personal level (big fear of mine).

When you trust, you go with it. You don't lose yourself, in fact you FIND yourself. But the trust has to be there first.

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/17/2011 6:14:03 PM

Buzzzz

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quote:

Sure, I could've "dominated" her and bent her to my will through manipulation or force. I could've demanded she get dressed and taken her out even though she might've sulked through dinner. Hell, if I wanted to be even more "dominant," I could've punished her for being disrespectful. However, would either of those solutions have done anything productive for our relationship

That isn't being a dominant, that is just punishing someone.

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/18/2011 9:39:10 AM

leadership527

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My boyfriend and I have been working on finding a dynamic that works for us since April, but we aren't quite there. I have been using a journal to write down my rules, important thoughts to remember, revelations, etc, but...I still suck at being a sub. I feel like there's so much I have to remember to do that I will just never succeed.
Or, you could perhaps tell yourself the truth. It is not "remembering to do stuff" that is killing you. It's actually doing it.

For example, the other day...I trust him with my life
And again, a bit of truthfulness would help a lot here. One of two things is true in this situation.

You are truthful and the value you personally ascribe to your own life is something below $300 USD.
You are lying and you do not trust him with your life much less $300.

I'm not being snarky here. I'm being blunt. When you want to improve a situation the first thing is to understand where you're starting at. Then you can think about where you want to end up. Then you can look for what's different between (a) and (b) and start working those gaps. But if you totally delude yourself about the starting condition then you are screwed. From that starting place you can only ever solve fantasy problems. If you want to work on real life things, then you need to do it in the real world.

but sometimes I feel like I know what's better for us as a couple...should I bite my tongue, learn to respectfully disagree, or what? Obviously I should leave the bitch-hulk in her cage, but I still don't know how to just relax and go with the flow/submit.
Well, much as I don't like to agree with Hannah, I'm afraid that she was right on this one. Your "bitch hulk" as you put it is more than simply inappropriate to a sub. It'd be inappropriate to ANYONE involved in my life -- wife, lover, friend, acquaintance -- anyone. You're alleged dominant needs to... well.. dominate. If I were in his shoes, my statement to you would be firm and unequivocal -- "Do that again and you can pack your bags... period." That's what setting a boundary looks like. He needs to learn how to do it.

What YOU need to do is to develop some strength and discipline and... for that matter... good manners. You're 24 so I can forgive you on the strength and discipline part at your age although you seriously NEED to work on this for your own sake. Having more will help you in life in general. The good manners part is a bit different. Obviously your boyfriend finds this behavior acceptable. I would not.

I was talking to one of my friends the other day and he said, "as a sub, you have the easy job". Umm, no. This is not easy for me. I'm naturally submissive but I still think logically and can't help it when I see boyfriend doing something totally dumb that I just want to shoo him away and do it myself. I know I can't do stuff like that anymore, but in the heat of the moment, I just forget my role as the sub and hulk out. So, I guess I also need to internalize my submission.
For starters, you're not "naturally submissive" in any way I can recognize. Everything in your post pretty much points to the much more common "reasonably dominant personality choosing to submit" mold. All that being said, it took Carol about 3.5 years to internalize her role as my property and slave. That was on top of a 12 year long (and very happy) marriage. So yeah, you do need to internalize your submission... but don't expect that to happen quickly. For most, it's a process and at least from what I've read, it takes a lot of time. In my experience, the vast majority never get there. You'll get there a lot better if you start with a clearer focus on actual current reality.

It may not seem this way, but that is my honestly best "helpful" advice. It wasn't intended to malign you. Good luck to you and your boyfriend :)

~Jeff

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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/18/2011 10:07:46 AM

Hisprettybaby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HisPet21

All subs are concerned about losing themselves in their submission.

This broad and sweeping generalization is incorrect. Just because you are and some others that you know are, does NOT mean that ALL are.

~Hisprettybaby~

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/18/2011 6:14:09 PM

HisPet21

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quote:

This broad and sweeping generalization is incorrect. Just because you are and some others that you know are, does NOT mean that ALL are.

You are correct. Did you read my third post, explaining what I really meant?

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/18/2011 6:53:33 PM

Tristan

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quote:

Well, much as I don't like to agree with Hannah, I'm afraid that she was right on this one. Your "bitch hulk" as you put it is more than simply inappropriate to a sub. It'd be inappropriate to ANYONE involved in my life -- wife, lover, friend, acquaintance -- anyone. You're alleged dominant needs to... well.. dominate. If I were in his shoes, my statement to you would be firm and unequivocal -- "Do that again and you can pack your bags... period." That's what setting a boundary looks like. He needs to learn how to do it.

Jeff's post was insightful and had very good advice. I agree that having clear boundaries in a relationship is important. However, I'm not sure that all or nothing works in every situation especially when dealing with insecurities. I read "bitch hulk" as a behavior driven by insecurities not necessarily a dominant personality. Often, it is insecurities that makes someone try to be dominant when it would not otherwise fit his or her personality. I might rephrase my response as "if that behavior continues, then pack your bags or don't talk to me again until you can do so politely."

Many would argue that people learn boundaries at work, and they would never show behaviors that are clearly not accepted by their employer. So maybe this is the right approach. I'd like to hear others comment because this is a very common problem in many relationships (romance, family, and friends).

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/19/2011 12:52:09 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan
However, I'm not sure that all or nothing works in every situation especially when dealing with insecurities.

Huh? "All or nothing" as you so aptly put it ALWAYS works. It absolutely guarantees that I am going to get my way and I'm going to get it promptly. In this scenario, my goal was not to "make the relationship work". Given her general lack of respect, the relationship already would've had close to zero value to me. My goal was simply to remove a source of really annoying disrespect from my intimate circle as quickly as possible. So she would either decide she respected me after all (unlikely) or else go find a more reasonable boyfriend which would I'm sure make her, me, and the new boyfriend all happier.

Tada. Problem solved.

Many would argue that people learn boundaries at work, and they would never show behaviors that are clearly not accepted by their employer. So maybe this is the right approach. I'd like to hear others comment because this is a very common problem in many relationships (romance, family, and friends).
I don't really understand what you're getting at here. I don't give a rats ass where someone else may or may not have learned boundaries. My boundaries are my own. I set them. I communicate them to others. I enforce them. It doesn't make any difference whether someone else "gets it" or not. It's just that if they fail to "get it" then they aren't in my life any more.

I am not OK with someone actually, deeply having no respect for me. I am not going to allow such a person in my life whether or not they "talk to me". When I'm give someone under my authority choices, then I'm good with all the choices presented and I would not be good with "sulking disrespectful but silent slave girl".

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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/19/2011 4:15:14 AM

DecadentDesire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan
However, I'm not sure that all or nothing works in every situation especially when dealing with insecurities.

Huh? "All or nothing" as you so aptly put it ALWAYS works. It absolutely guarantees that I am going to get my way and I'm going to get it promptly. In this scenario, my goal was not to "make the relationship work". Given her general lack of respect, the relationship already would've had close to zero value to me. My goal was simply to remove a source of really annoying disrespect from my intimate circle as quickly as possible. So she would either decide she respected me after all (unlikely) or else go find a more reasonable boyfriend which would I'm sure make her, me, and the new boyfriend all happier.

Tada. Problem solved.

Many would argue that people learn boundaries at work, and they would never show behaviors that are clearly not accepted by their employer. So maybe this is the right approach. I'd like to hear others comment because this is a very common problem in many relationships (romance, family, and friends).
I don't really understand what you're getting at here. I don't give a rats ass where someone else may or may not have learned boundaries. My boundaries are my own. I set them. I communicate them to others. I enforce them. It doesn't make any difference whether someone else "gets it" or not. It's just that if they fail to "get it" then they aren't in my life any more.

I am not OK with someone actually, deeply having no respect for me. I am not going to allow such a person in my life whether or not they "talk to me". When I'm give someone under my authority choices, then I'm good with all the choices presented and I would not be good with "sulking disrespectful but silent slave girl".

Your premise seems to be that the displays of sarcasm are a sign of a deep underlying lack of respect. Sorry, I just don't always find that to be the case. It can easily be a case of poorly channeled and temporary frustration and/or anger over the issue at hand. I can think back to times in my life when I immaturely smarted off at the mouth to figures I, internally, held a degree of respect and admiration for, but was allowing feelings of anger and frustration to cloud that and say things I didn't really mean at the time.

I would agree that the removal of a person who really does lack of respect for you is the right choice, but I don't agree that every display of sarcasm or backtalk that could be interpreted as a lack of respect really is one. If I shoved people out the door every time they did something that I could interpret as disrespect, I would be a very lonely person, because in the natural course of human relationships, you are gonna get hugged 6 days and slapped on the 7th.

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/19/2011 3:34:55 PM

Bertandlaerie

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Jeff, I must say I am a bit disappointed in your responses. Normally I look forward to hearing your perspective on different threads, both laerie and I have commented numerous times that we like the different dynamic of this lifestyle that you and Carol represent here. I do find it odd that you have posted such a harsh response given your admittance in previous threads that you love Carol more than the lifestyle and if she hadn't taken to it well, you wouldn't have pushed it. Did you two really never run into problems when you were just starting to explore this dynamic? I think that the issue here is very similar, she balks and I am not willing to hurt our relationship for the sake of the dynamic, yet it has gotten clouded over in surface level discussions of the scenario... after all it is an internet forum and we really can only present so much information through these posts.

If this was a systemic problem of a lack of respect, it would be another issue entirely. I agree with you wholeheartedly that I see absolutely no reason to surround myself with people who are blatantly disrespectful, whether it's friends, family, or employees. One of the main reasons we brought this thread to the board was because outbursts such as these are uncharacteristic for her and she wants to be able to move past the worries that are causing them. By hanging onto those worries, she is unable to find herself in her submission. As Decadent Desire and Tristan have alluded to, these occurrences are the exceptions, not the norm. However, they remain a significant stumbling block for us. I believe that Tristan put it best that in those moments she is essentially removing her consent, at least from my perspective. By that, I mean that forcing her to accept the rules and boundaries of our dynamic doesn't seem the healthy option in those moments. As I've said, I am concerned about why she feels that response is appropriate. She knows as well as I do that the disrespect is inappropriate. As soon as the words came out she clapped both hands over her mouth and her eyes got wide because she knew it was out of line.

The best answer that we've come up with is that it is all tied to our pasts. As she mentioned, we come from very different backgrounds with regard to money. Even now, we have very disparate levels of income. Relatively speaking, the night out to her is a more significant cost to her than it is to me, however it seems she cannot help but project her perception of that cost on to her understanding of my actions. In a way, it reminds me of coookie's story about the towels, from her perspective it's being done wrong or could be done better. I truly believe that laerie does not want to continue to be upset by things that are ostensibly out of her control, but that doesn't change the fact that she's not there yet, those moments still cause her to react emotionally (fear/anger/anxiety) instead of rationally.

We came here looking for help on how to handle and move past such situations. We've tried talking it out in order to expose the underlying fears, we've tried punishing her for disrespect in the the hope that she would learn to think before she spoke and present her fears in a more appropriate manner. However, these occurrences still happen every once in awhile and they throw us off track each time because neither of us is exactly sure what to make of them. Perhaps it is as simple as her biting her tongue at times and watching to see if the world is still functioning even if things weren't done her way. Or perhaps it is as simple as me being more stern with her, reminding her of our mutually agreed upon boundaries and that will snap her back into the submissive mindset that her emotions snapped her out of. Or the answer may lie somewhere in the middle. Rather than start a discussion on respect, we had hoped for others to share their stories about transitioning from vanilla to d/s, how they overcame the fears, doubts, and insecurities that are bound to pop up along the journey. I cannot believe that we are truly unique in this respect.

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RE: click to collarme so they can teach me how to subbie - 7/20/2011 1:27:54 PM

agirl

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You're not alone.

Both M and I deal with a fair amount of frustration in our lives for various reasons and there are times when we simply are not at our best. I sometimes react emotionally and he is sometimes short tempered. We are very different people with VERY different personalities and sometimes we both miss the mark.

It has nothing to do with not having respect for each other, it's more that when certain situations arise we don't always deal with them in the most stellar manner. I have a weakness when it comes to change, I don't deal very well with unexpected or unforseen changes and it takes me a long time to adjust. M doesn't have any problem with change and can adjust swiftly. He takes far more things in his stride than I do. This is just one aspect a where we can miss the mark.

I think that if you are already talking to find out what might be underlying these odd occasions, maybe just accepting it for what it is.....*an occasional outburst* might take the preessure off.

You mentioned that she clapped her hands over her mouth, that she knew as soon as the words were out that it was out of line.....Well, so do I when it happens. Sometimes M will just say * Would you like to re-phrase that?*....which gives me an immediate chance to THINK and say what I actually feel and why.

If it happened all the time it would be harrowing, but perhaps M and I accept that occasionally we're less than brilliant and don't take it too seriously. I accept that I react for the reasons you mentioned......fear, anxiety, anger, frustration and insecurity. I'd like to eliminate that altogether but I highly doubt I ever will.

At some point you will come across the best way to handle these things......in the meantime you're both talking, you both are heading in the same direction and you stand the best chance of finding your own ways of handling these moments for that reason.

I don't spend much time worrying about my *submission* as I'm owned whether I'm good, bad or indifferent :)

agirl

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See how easy it can be?

(in reply to Bertandlaerie)

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Post #: 58