RE: Mental Health

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Arpig -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 2:15:06 AM)
quote: Am I barbaric because of it? Absolutely quote: Am I lacking a moral compass? Absolutely quote: I just have different shades of gray then you do. There are no shades of gray, we are talking about killing somebody quote: But the great thing about this forum? Is we are all allowed to have our own opinion, with out others attacking us for it. That's your opinion, personally I enjoy the attacks, they are far more entertaining. quote: So if you and your little brigade I have no brigade, I never have, you're being daft I didn't attack anybody, I only spoke the truth. That you see yourself in my description only proves how utterly accurate a description it was, now doesn't it. And to sum up....... You are wrong and have absolutely no factual, ethical, or moral standing.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 2:42:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel You may not get this but in the end, the death penalty is not inhumane, its simply a consequence of a person's actions. There is a real simple way for people to AVOID the death penalty --- do you have a clue what that is -- or doesn't that matter in your world? angel Why are people NOT getting this simple statement? I think some people fell on their heads during this thread. I think some people just didn't bother doing their research and buy mindlessly into "courts can't fail" with the minimum of research, you can get plenty of cases where somebody ended on death row who was NOT guilty. Of course you can take the cheap and easy way out with "Oh mistakes will always happen" - I just wonder how you would feel about one of those mistakes if it would be you or yours being on death row? Ever thought about it from that angle? Or do you think it could never happen? Bet the people who ended there on account of a "mistake" thought the same. I give you another simple statement: Killing is wrong! We all agree on that, right? So how come that something that is wrong all of a sudden becomes right if it is declared legal? Funny how people don't get that? Think they all fell on their heads or something?

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 4:31:26 AM)
lady c have you ever been to an American prison? where thy have 60 inch plasma tvs with every channel under the sun.. where the library houses hundreds if not thousands of books? what about the millions of dollars spent in gym equipment.... do you know on average inmates get served two.star meals for dinner....get steak seafood and shellfish?... i do well for my self..but i like most Americans have to budget around taxes and other living expenses. when on a regular day rapist and murder gets meals better then the regular.population..it pisses me off. because we have to treat the dregs of humanity civil we as a country suffer....the millions we put in entertainment for the criminals we could use.to feed house and clothe the elderly and children.... we could use for universal health care its easy to sit back and say well its wrong..... but you DON'T actually live in America... you live in the land of free health care and easily accessible assistance.....try moving across the.pond and living.here with the policy we have and then see if your judgements change...

SuzeCheri -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 4:43:31 AM)
quote: i do well for my self..but i like most Americans have to budget around taxes and other living expenses. when on a regular day rapist and murder gets meals better then the regular.population..it pisses me off. The obvious solution is just to go rape or kill somebody, wouldn't you say Cheri? I agree, that's a very astute observation Suze, you're smarter than you look. That's sweet of you to say C-baby, you're not as pretty as you look yourself. Aw thanks Swooz...HEY!!

LadyConstanze -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:14:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance lady c have you ever been to an American prison? where thy have 60 inch plasma tvs with every channel under the sun.. where the library houses hundreds if not thousands of books? what about the millions of dollars spent in gym equipment.... do you know on average inmates get served two.star meals for dinner....get steak seafood and shellfish?... i do well for my self..but i like most Americans have to budget around taxes and other living expenses. when on a regular day rapist and murder gets meals better then the regular.population..it pisses me off. because we have to treat the dregs of humanity civil we as a country suffer....the millions we put in entertainment for the criminals we could use.to feed house and clothe the elderly and children.... we could use for universal health care its easy to sit back and say well its wrong..... but you DON'T actually live in America... you live in the land of free health care and easily accessible assistance.....try moving across the.pond and living.here with the policy we have and then see if your judgements change... I have this amazing newsflash for you, I actually have lived in the US for a few years, NYC and LA, now tell me, about your REAL LIFE experiences with US prisons and the European systems, how long and where have you lived in Europe? Yes I have not just tried moving across the pond, I actually did it. Funny that, in fact if you don't believe me, feel free to check out old post where I mentioned living in the US. Have I ever been in a US prison? Yes, visiting somebody I used to work with and who went in after she violated her drug parole, and you know what? I missed seeing those amazing luxurious prisons you ramble on about, the prison seemed to me hell on earth, the friend there said it's terrible, not just being locked up and caged like an animal, violence ripe and the guards don't get involved, no privacy, anybody can look into your cell at anytime and the toilet is in plain view. Must be wonderful... So which prisons have you seen that were equipped with plasma screens and all sorts of luxuries? Because while living in the US, I also made friends with a couple of lawyers and social workers, oddly enough they all say the same about prisons, they are overcrowded, horrible places, plenty of violence and all that, somebody goes in for something relatively small and inside they learn how to rape women, how to manage to break all locks, and basically they get a fine education in crime, oh yeah, and rape also happens quite frequently. I guess those guys just didn't know what they were talking about? I mean their real life experience doesn't count because.... Yeah because why? Please give some examples of those luxury hotels that camouflage as prisons? Because they don't quite seem to be on the same planet. Where have you seen them? ETA: You also didn't quite reply to my previous questions, like how you would do that "rape the rapist in the same way" thing.... Which must come from the same reality where the 60 inch plasma screens standard equipment in prisons come from... As for the gym equipment, yeah, it would be so much better to have people not being able to work out and give them a chance to release pent up frustration, and instead have them revolting... That would make so much more sense and would be a much better way to spend tax dollars... Reality check?

orchid77 -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:31:12 AM)
OP, hi, I read this thread before and decided against responding because at the time I had very strong feelings about the little boy who was murdered. Anyhow, this is how I feel about the matter of mental illness and violence. I believe that the judicial system (lawyers in particular) take advantage of the use of mental illness. Most mentally ill individuallys are NOT violent. I will be honest with you, I don't believe one minute that man is mentally ill. The murder itself was not sporadic (although he said he panicked) it was thought out clearly. Do you know how much thought, effort, and time it takes to cut through bone, put it neatly in a suitcase, and throw it away? A lot. So clearly this man has the ability to think on how to get rid of the evidence. Most criminals always go crazy once they get caught. Or at least say they are crazy. As for the woman eating herself...I would say there is always a reason behind a story. Is it a mentally or emotionally ill story? Maybe. As for empathy? I have no understanding of what made her feel she needed to do this...but I can say I am interested in knowing more about it.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:38:09 AM)
quote: lady c have you ever been to an American prison? where thy have 60 inch plasma tvs with every channel under the sun.. where the library houses hundreds if not thousands of books? what about the millions of dollars spent in gym equipment.... do you know on average inmates get served two.star meals for dinner....get steak seafood and shellfish?... i do well for my self..but i like most Americans have to budget around taxes and other living expenses. when on a regular day rapist and murder gets meals better then the regular.population..it pisses me off. because we have to treat the dregs of humanity civil we as a country suffer....the millions we put in entertainment for the criminals we could use.to feed house and clothe the elderly and children.... we could use for universal health care its easy to sit back and say well its wrong..... but you DON'T actually live in America... you live in the land of free health care and easily accessible assistance.....try moving across the.pond and living.here with the policy we have and then see if your judgements change... as usual you're just blowing smoke out your fucking ass. check the attached pic, just some shots gleaned from a quick google, looks right luxurious to me, a regular fucking presidential suite at the ritz eh? oh, and this last bit: quote: its easy to sit back and say well its wrong..... but you DON'T actually live in America... you live in the land of free health care and easily accessible assistance.....try moving across the.pond and living.here with the policy we have and then see if your judgements change... you're country's social system sucks dog cock, and that justifies killing people? it's not your moral compass that's out of whack, it's your whole fucking brain, i mean that has got to be the stupidest thing you've ever posted. with every post you make babe, you render yourself more and more irrelevant to the discussion, any fucking discussion. [image]local://upfiles/1188372/78624A11C13348F791EFC76D52879AF5.jpg[/image]

barelynangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:39:50 AM)
Lady Costanza, Here's a question for you -- what was the way your friend could have avoided the KNOWN consequence of having to go to prison? I mean if she was on parole, she 1) knew the rules, 2) she knew what the consequences could be, and 3) she knew what NOT to do to avoid those consequences. But obviously, prison wasn't that bad because she did exactly what she shouldn't have and got sent to prison as a consequence. I work with lawyers, i worked with many criminal lawyers while i worked for the prosecution, i worked with people IN the system such as prisons and such. Funny, most of the ones i know like to put personal responsibility on people and while prisons aren't a walk in the park and are a scary assed place -- i sure the hell wouldn't want to live there -- they also hold people to personal responsibility. The fact that prisons are overcrowded tells me that it must not be THAT bad for those people who keep returning to same. And that is something you haven't commented on the number of repeat offenders. I mean hell, people know about the THREE STRIKE LAW, and yet that doesn't seem to deter them. So seriously, is prison that bad? I mean if i am terrified or scared or simply hate someplace -- i do everything in my power to avoid having to go there. What about THAT experience Lady COnstanza? They may SAY they are terrible but yet many of them commit crimes that they know the consequence could be their going back. I mean if someone tells you that the icecream they are eating is horrible. terrible and is hurting them and yet they keep gobbling it down when there are other alternatives -- would you believe them? I guess their actions don't mean anything. angel

barelynangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:42:18 AM)
Hannah, what are those pictures supposed to show? Honestly, they look better than what i know of the prison cells i have seen. What are we supposed to say ohh poor babies they are in cells because of their crimes? It's NOT supposed to be a luxury hotel with all the amenities, its prison for fucksake. angel

erieangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:53:01 AM)
quote: The fact that prisons are overcrowded tells me that it must not be THAT bad for those people who keep returning to same. You can't be serious. You claim to have worked in the system and you don't realize that the re-avender rate wouldn't be as high as it is if we actually spent money to rehabilitate people rather than just warehouse them? I wrote in my journal about an incident at my work last week where one of my clients ended up violating his probation by issuing a threat to me. This was not the first threat he'd ever issued and it was not the first time his probation officer called him into her office for a violation. The first time was for drugs, which he has been off since the probation made him sit in the county prison over a holiday weekend. But the threats coupled with growing disrespect and an unwillingness to participate in mental health treatment landed him back in prison. I have another client who is on probation who is actually most everything right, except that he doesn't spend as much in treatment as he is required to do.

angelikaJ -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:54:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance lady c have you ever been to an American prison? where thy have 60 inch plasma tvs with every channel under the sun.. where the library houses hundreds if not thousands of books? what about the millions of dollars spent in gym equipment.... do you know on average inmates get served two.star meals for dinner....get steak seafood and shellfish?... i do well for my self..but i like most Americans have to budget around taxes and other living expenses. when on a regular day rapist and murder gets meals better then the regular.population..it pisses me off. because we have to treat the dregs of humanity civil we as a country suffer....the millions we put in entertainment for the criminals we could use.to feed house and clothe the elderly and children.... we could use for universal health care its easy to sit back and say well its wrong..... but you DON'T actually live in America... you live in the land of free health care and easily accessible assistance.....try moving across the.pond and living.here with the policy we have and then see if your judgements change... I know someone in prison. They have basic food. They do have television but it is one tv for the entire block and majority rules and no, they do not get every channel and they get tv priviledges for a couple hours in the evening after supper and before lights out. They do not have internet. They do have a library but really if all you have is books for entertainment... . There are other things about prisons: they are very loud places and so reading is not as easy as one might think. Oh and btw: this is a minimum security facility. Minimum security does not mean a 4 star hotel, it means some of the prisoners are allowed out for work camp.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:01:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Lady Costanza, Here's a question for you -- what was the way your friend could have avoided the KNOWN consequence of having to go to prison? Let's be really sanctimonious about it, sure you couldn't be more if you tried really hard. In case you missed it, the question was not if it was right or wrong for her to go to prison, it was about the luxury of prison cells. Now in case you would be really interested - which I doubt - she had a drug addiction, you are familiar with addictions and that it's not just an easy case of "Say no"? A girl who had the cards stacked against her, victim of rape by the stepfather, ran away and did odd jobs and ended as a gofer in the music industry, which of course will not bring her in touch with drugs (where's my sarcasm button) and actually trying to make a living, sure she could have avoided it all, she could have told her stepfather she doesn't want to be raped, I am sure he would have listened, she shouldn't just have run away and numbed her feelings with drugs when she was sleeping with guys for shelter and possibly affection, often I guess even just for a bit of money to survive and buy drugs, yes, I can see how she could have avoided it all and it's really her fault... quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel I mean if she was on parole, she 1) knew the rules, 2) she knew what the consequences could be, and 3) she knew what NOT to do to avoid those consequences. But obviously, prison wasn't that bad because she did exactly what she shouldn't have and got sent to prison as a consequence. See above... quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel I work with lawyers, i worked with many criminal lawyers while i worked for the prosecution, i worked with people IN the system such as prisons and such. Funny, most of the ones i know like to put personal responsibility on people and while prisons aren't a walk in the park and are a scary assed place -- i sure the hell wouldn't want to live there -- they also hold people to personal responsibility. The fact that prisons are overcrowded tells me that it must not be THAT bad for those people who keep returning to same. And that is something you haven't commented on the number of repeat offenders. I mean hell, people know about the THREE STRIKE LAW, and yet that doesn't seem to deter them. So seriously, is prison that bad? I mean if i am terrified or scared or simply hate someplace -- i do everything in my power to avoid having to go there. What about THAT experience Lady COnstanza? They may SAY they are terrible but yet many of them commit crimes that they know the consequence could be their going back. I mean if someone tells you that the icecream they are eating is horrible. terrible and is hurting them and yet they keep gobbling it down when there are other alternatives -- would you believe them? I guess their actions don't mean anything. angel Well it must be terribly nice to live in such a charmed place that you never had to fight for survival, personally I never really had to live on the streets, but that doesn't stop me having sympathy for people who weren't that lucky. Apparently the same can't be said for you, and quite apparently you don't get it that if an action is blatantly wrong then it is wrong for everybody, murder is murder, state sanctioned murder is called executions, doesn't change what it is... Now if you go "Oh but it is legal" - yes, the Romans also had a legal system, I'm sure ending up in the Circus Maximus was completely justified by their legal system and you find that as alright as executions, because after all, "legal" being the key word, in the Roman empire you could have been a slave, legally, no need to complain about it, right, the law is the law and who would dare to call that Barbaric?

angelikaJ -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:12:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance Actually Capital punishment is one of the most quick and painless ways ANY HUMAN BEING can die. Its a method thats been tested tried and true to be as humane as possible. Barbaric is slowly slitting someones wrists and watching them bleed to death for hours. Inhumane is stoning to death. No it isn't: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20061218_sarat.html Add to that wrongful convictions: http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/Browse-Profiles.php Non-DNA exonerations Seventeen people have been proven innocent and exonerated by DNA testing in the United States after serving time on death row. They were convicted in 11 states and served a combined 209 years in prison – including 187 years on death row – for crimes they didn’t commit.

barelynangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:18:08 AM)
Erieangel, I believe if people are HELD to personal responsibility our prison system would be LESS crowded because people would realize they are held to their actions and they would be making the choices that probation allows them. However, i am also a person who believes that putting people with drug problems in prison doesn't help them and they should be put in security rehab centers. But we don't have that for a lot of people so we have to work with what we have until there is change. I don't believe in saying well we are going to give criminals a pass because our system isn't as we'd like it. But until those laws change, i don't have sympathy if they get sent to prison FOR THEIR ACTIONS because usually its a second and third offense or a violation of some sort when they do. I do believe in leniency in many cases for many people and i also don't believe many first offenders for non-violent crimes should go to prison. However, they land on my desk a second time and i had NO sympathy for them and felt they just thumbed their noses at the benefit of the doubt the system tried to give them. What most people don't get is many first time offenders of non-violent crimes don't go to prison -- especially drug possession crimes. Many people get hit with misdemeanor charges first and then move up the ranks to felony. So what's the excuses there? As i said MOST people in prison are REPEAT offenders. It's not hard to know right from wrong and many of them commit the same exact crime knowing full well the consquences. So nope, i will not apologize for having no sympathy for these people sent to prison. There are cases i do feel bad for the person because they may have gotten a raw deal. I don't make excuses for them. As people make more and more excuses for people who commit crimes 0 addiction, mental illness (nowadays everyone has some form of mental illness whether they are a criminal or not) the more our prisons become overcrowded because people are taking away personal responsibility. What are we supposed to feel sorry for your clients? BOTH of your examples are people not chosing the alternative choice given to them to remain out of prison. Umm Yeah, treatment and not going is a pretty HUGE thing if it's court ordered. Again, are we supposed to feel sorry for them? The system gave them choices - many times more than once, we shouldn't hold them to THEIR choice and give them the personal responsibility of making that choice? quote: she could have told her stepfather she doesn't want to be raped Ya know, there are MANY MANY MANY people who have survived this who never ended up in prison. So what's your excuse as to why they didn't. People have choices, bad things happen to good people, the majority of people don't land in prison. So what's your excuse there. angel

barelynangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:27:28 AM)
Lady Constanza, i do know people who have had to fight for survival and ya know what most of them don't end up in prison because they choose NOT to break the laws. I do know people addicted to illegal drugs and i do what i can to help them but if they land in prison, then they land in prison. Do not start generalizing and implying that everyone in prison are the ONLY people who have had tough lives etc etc etc. MOST people who have had tough lives don't end up in prison. DO NOT FUCKING DISRESPECT THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD IT TOUGH AND FOUGH FOR SURVIVAL AND DIDN'T END UP IN PRISON. Fuck that is just bullshit. Having it tough is NO FUCKING excuse for ending up in prison. Do not even think to use that fucking reason to me. What you aren't hearing in your need to generalize it all is -- - I never said killing was wrong. Certain types of killing are wrong. Certain types are not -- We kill in war, authorized people are allowed to kill --- i.e. police etc etc. There is a difference between illegal murder and legalized killing. Killing isn't always wrong and in this case of the death penalty as it IS LEGAL and a consequence that is carried out in a sentence -- it isn't wrong. So before you start trying to whine about people in prison having tough lives, remember that the majority of people out there who have had tough lives, survived things you cant even fucking imagine etc and go on to lead productive lives because they made choices. And there are MANY people who do get in trouble with the law who go on to not make the wrong choices again and lead lives OUT of prison. So get off YOUR high sanctimonious horse and quit acting like those people in prison are the only people in this world who have had it horribly tough and needed to fight to survive. That is completely disrespectful to people who made the right choices. angel

Arpig -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:29:19 AM)
quote: Actually Capital punishment is one of the most quick and painless ways ANY HUMAN BEING can die. Really now? And you would know this how? Have you ever witnessed an execution? Well perhaps you'd like to hear a description of a death by lethal injection, as it happens, I just happen to have one for you. Click Here As I said before, you are wrong and have no factual, ethical, or moral standing. A slight aside, a question directed to those who claim that execution is not murder, perhaps you'd like to explain why, on the death certificates of executed prisoners, the cause of death is listed as "homicide"?

LadyConstanze -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:32:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel I do believe in leniency in many cases for many people and i also don't believe many first offenders for non-violent crimes should go to prison. However, they land on my desk a second time and i had NO sympathy for them and felt they just thumbed their noses at the benefit of the doubt the system tried to give them. What most people don't get is many first time offenders of non-violent crimes don't go to prison -- especially drug possession crimes. Many people get hit with misdemeanor charges first and then move up the ranks to felony. So what's the excuses there? As i said MOST people in prison are REPEAT offenders. It's not hard to know right from wrong and many of them commit the same exact crime knowing full well the consquences. So nope, i will not apologize for having no sympathy for these people sent to prison. There are cases i do feel bad for the person because they may have gotten a raw deal. I don't make excuses for them. Before you fall of your high horse, you might consider the brilliant choices some of them had, I understand you have children? Now just picture yourself in a situation where you never got an education, you're a single mom, you don't know how to fend for your kids, the kids suffer. Would you consider breaking the law to feed them? I don't have sprogs but I would, so I must be a horrible person and you are morally superior, you'd let the kids suffer rather than break a law... Imagine you grew up in surroundings where it was normal to be a criminal, you never really learned right from wrong, yes slums still exist, you fall into the same trap... Why do you think there is a disproportionally large amount of ethnic minorities in prisons? Because their skin colour makes them bad people or simply because they got the short straw and live often in appalling poverty and for them the only way out seems to be crime... So yes, let's lock them up because at least in prison they get a brilliant education how to be even more effective criminals, they will pick up tricks that they didn't pick up on the outside, because oh hooray, there's a ton of specialist they are mingling with... And of course being locked up most of the time with little to do to occupy their minds doesn't help them to think about what they did wrong. Let's not invest money in rehabilitation, oh no, let's have more prisons because of course they are not bad enough or those people with all those choices open to them (yeah, try to get a job when you have a previous conviction, I imagine it must be a cake walk in this economy, right), so they must be really cool places... Now let's waste a lot more money on the wars on drugs and start a war on porn as well, that will make our society much better, billions of tax dollars well spent...

HannahLynHeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:37:07 AM)
quote: Hannah, what are those pictures supposed to show? Honestly, they look better than what i know of the prison cells i have seen. What are we supposed to say ohh poor babies they are in cells because of their crimes? It's NOT supposed to be a luxury hotel with all the amenities, its prison for fucksake. whay are they supposed to show? well maybe that sr was full of shit and that prisons aren't fucking luxury hotels as she claimed. pretty much what i said in the fucking post the picture was attached to. thanks so much for your contributions to this thread there barely, really.

Arpig -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:37:55 AM)
quote: Killing isn't always wrong and in this case of the death penalty as it IS LEGAL and a consequence that is carried out in a sentence -- it isn't wrong. So waterboarding and other such "enhanced interrogation techniques" are also "not wrong"? Sorry there barely, but there is a huge difference between "right" and "legal", being legal does not make something right. You are wrong and have no factual, ethical, or moral standing.

barelynangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:39:14 AM)
Lady Constanza you are putting words in my mouth, and obviously not reading what i have said -- fuck in the same post you quoted right above where you quoted but i guess that wouldn't have allowed you to say what you are implying here but let me quote for accuracy and from here on out -- have the integrity to quote my whole post if you are going to imply i am saying something i am not... quote: However, i am also a person who believes that putting people with drug problems in prison doesn't help them and they should be put in security rehab centers. But we don't have that for a lot of people so we have to work with what we have until there is change. I don't believe in saying well we are going to give criminals a pass because our system isn't as we'd like it. But until those laws change, i don't have sympathy if they get sent to prison FOR THEIR ACTIONS because usually its a second and third offense or a violation of some sort when they do.

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