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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 5:12:03 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 7:14:45 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Perhaps FDD might benefit from watching the "The Fog Of War", where Vietnam War architect Robert McNamara recants and admits the war was indefensible and wrong. And all of those who deaths, on whatever side, were avoidable if the US had adopted Ms Fonda's suggestion at the time.

Perhaps FDD might benefit from talking to some of the Vietnamese survivors of the indiscriminate American carpet bombing of North Vietnam. Or and Nixon's Kissinger's bombing of non-combatants Laos and Cambodia. Among the consequences: millions of innocent civilian deaths, and setting off a chain of events that lead to the murderous Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia.

It seems to me (as an outsider) that Ms Fonda's contribution to America's moral standing is far greater than any of those who seek to re-write history by clinging to the abandoned rationalisations for that disastrous war. The activism of Fonda and all those other heroic Americans who stood up to their Govt (often at great personal cost) and forced a halt to US involvement in Vietnam saved millions of lives.



Robert McNamara was guilty of the serial manslaughter of tens of thousands of American troops and should have been prosecuted as such.

The families of the millions killed by the the communist governments of Viet-Nam, Laos and Cambodia after the United States failed to properly prosecute that war might disagree with you on the rest of the drek you wrote.

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 7:35:33 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Careful about advocating that politicians might be prosecuted as a result of decisions made while they held office,whether elected or appointed ....that just might lead to prosecutions of some that are near and dear to you and the rest of the right wing nuts.

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 8:31:27 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Perhaps FDD might benefit from watching the "The Fog Of War", where Vietnam War architect Robert McNamara recants and admits the war was indefensible and wrong. And all of those who deaths, on whatever side, were avoidable if the US had adopted Ms Fonda's suggestion at the time.

Perhaps FDD might benefit from talking to some of the Vietnamese survivors of the indiscriminate American carpet bombing of North Vietnam. Or and Nixon's Kissinger's bombing of non-combatants Laos and Cambodia. Among the consequences: millions of innocent civilian deaths, and setting off a chain of events that lead to the murderous Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia.

It seems to me (as an outsider) that Ms Fonda's contribution to America's moral standing is far greater than any of those who seek to re-write history by clinging to the abandoned rationalisations for that disastrous war. The activism of Fonda and all those other heroic Americans who stood up to their Govt (often at great personal cost) and forced a halt to US involvement in Vietnam saved millions of lives.



Robert McNamara was guilty of the serial manslaughter of tens of thousands of American troops and should have been prosecuted as such.

The families of the millions killed by the the communist governments of Viet-Nam, Laos and Cambodia after the United States failed to properly prosecute that war might disagree with you on the rest of the drek you wrote.


He`s the only one(US official) to admit his errors and ask for foregiveness.

Haven`t heard squat from the righties involved.Which make McNamara tower over them morally.

Never heard tricky dick apologize for duping America with his "secrete plan" to end the war bullshit.

What we hear from righties is more and more wars for nothing.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/20/2011 8:32:36 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 9:08:15 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Lets not forget to prosecute our liberal presidents as well. Didn't Obama just get us into a war for no reason in lybia ? Weren't we supposed to be out of there in something like 48 hours ?

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 9:32:51 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Another codler of criminal terrorists.....

You know that guy mudered close to two Americans,don`t you?



_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 9:35:07 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Lets not forget to prosecute our liberal presidents as well. Didn't Obama just get us into a war for no reason in lybia ? Weren't we supposed to be out of there in something like 48 hours ?

Now we need get into semantics now that we have a dem pres. ?

One can argue all day long about aiding rebels the leadership of which we now recognize as the new govt. of Libya vs concocting stories about yellow cake, whatever that is...to go into a real war of invasion that history will show...there is a great difference.

But the latter becomes a very specious argument when it is the violator...the world seeks to conquer. Quadaffi is Libya's Mussolini.

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 9:35:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Another codler of criminal terrorists.....

You know that guy mudered close to two Americans,don`t you?





Which of course provides Obama with Imperial Powers to take our country into a war without any authorization from anybody who matters, right O59? 


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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 9:36:41 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		And another.......



_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/20/2011 11:14:02 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

FDD
Robert McNamara was guilty of the serial manslaughter of tens of thousands of American troops and should have been prosecuted as such.

The families of the millions killed by the the communist governments of Viet-Nam, Laos and Cambodia after the United States failed to properly prosecute that war might disagree with you on the rest of the drek you wrote.


Are you unable or unwilling to grasp that, had it not been for the US's disastrous campaign in Vietnam, and in particular Nixon and Kissinger's appalling decision to starting carpet bombing Laos and Cambodia, those two countries could (and quite probably would) have been spared the Communist Govts that eventually came to power there?

Both Laos and Cambodia were (relatively) peaceful prior to Kissinger's cross-border expansion of the Vietnam conflict. The bombing of those countries set off a chain of events that led to the Khmer Rouge and the Laotian Communists attaining power. Any reasonably factual analysis of the above can only conclude that the ultimate responsibility for the disasters that beset those nations must lie at the hands of Nixon and Kissinger.

With the benefit of hindsight, Fonda can be seen to have acted in the US's best interests. Those who dragged the US's name and reputation down were the Johnsons, Nixons, Kissingers and other 'hawks' of the era. They hold the dubious distinction of causing the millions of deaths, the destruction of the region and ultimately, the responsibility for US casualties too.

If I was American, I would be demanding that the warmongers be the ones charged with treason. As an Australian I hold the Australian politicians of the time responsible for ALL the Australian casualties of the war. Their behaviour and decisions were directly responsible for untold suffering of numerous Australian families and veterans. The politicians ought to be paying the price for their cynical inhumane disasters, not the peacemakers.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/20/2011 11:17:04 PM >

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/21/2011 12:07:28 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Yeah, then if you do that you gotta execute the CINCPACs kid, for the same thing, what was his name? Little Johnny McCain.....


Holy shit. Are you seriously suggesting that a "confession" obtained by torture is legitimate?


gimme a break why do you think he got the nickname "SongBird"?

His ass didnt even hit the ground and he was singing. 

Its all on record in the national archives!

oh wait when he ran for top traitor the sealed them.  to bad





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/21/2011 12:09:57 AM >

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/21/2011 12:15:09 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

He`s the only one(US official) to admit his errors and ask for foregiveness.

Haven`t heard squat from the righties involved.Which make McNamara tower over them morally.

Never heard tricky dick apologize for duping America with his "secrete plan" to end the war bullshit.

What we hear from righties is more and more wars for nothing.



wanna hear the tapes of the lefties staging and setting up the gulf of tonkin then lying to congress?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/21/2011 8:35:21 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Yeah, then if you do that you gotta execute the CINCPACs kid, for the same thing, what was his name? Little Johnny McCain.....


Holy shit. Are you seriously suggesting that a "confession" obtained by torture is legitimate?



We call that "enhanced interrogation" today

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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/21/2011 8:40:57 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

We call that "enhanced interrogation" today


I hate euphemisms.

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/21/2011 8:49:11 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

We call that "enhanced interrogation" today


I hate euphemisms.



Yeah, like we rebranded genocide into ethnic cleansing..

I really love the latest one.... the super rich have been rebranded "job creators"... I really wish those job creators would start job creating

_____________________________

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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/21/2011 11:05:43 AM   
CharmCityCpl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Then explain to me what the fuck it all was for.

Fifty-eight thousand two hundred and two American lives lost. 

Three hundred and four thousand seven hundred and four wounded.

Two thousand three hundred and thirty eight missing in action.

What the fuck did we accomplish with all that carnage?

If you want to talk about someone spitting on the memory of those lives you need only to look to our renewed diplomatic relations with Vietnam and the U.S. corporations that are profiting there.



OH you mean like the construction company that made millions from the rennovation of Cam Ranh Bay Harbor? The company owned by John Kerrys cousin? The same John Kerry who closed the book on MIA's so the deal could proceed?

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/21/2011 11:10:34 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.history.army.mil/books/Vietnam/basedev/chapter5.htm

His cousin owned the 497th?

You got any more on that?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/21/2011 11:11:06 AM >

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/21/2011 10:45:33 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Then explain to me what the fuck it all was for.

Fifty-eight thousand two hundred and two American lives lost. 

Three hundred and four thousand seven hundred and four wounded.

Two thousand three hundred and thirty eight missing in action.

What the fuck did we accomplish with all that carnage?

If you want to talk about someone spitting on the memory of those lives you need only to look to our renewed diplomatic relations with Vietnam and the U.S. corporations that are profiting there.



Jane Fonda is a piece of shit...period.  But...in response to your post, yes, the war was wrong.  There was a chance for Vietnam to be a democracy if we backed the right horse.  Instead, we backed our former ally France in their endeavor to hold their grip on one of their last colonies.  It was the ultimate hypocrisy.  WW II was the war to end colonialism and for self determination and we supported France in maintaining a colony.  That being said, it does not make what Jane Fonda did right.  It is one thing to protest the war.  It is another thing to give aid and comfort to the enemy.

< Message edited by lockedaway -- 7/21/2011 10:57:35 PM >

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RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/21/2011 11:58:09 PM   
CharmCityCpl


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Joined: 1/16/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Funny,I haven`t met a vet in person who was bothered by Fonda.


Funnier,I haven`t met a neo-con who`ll admit that dick cheney committed treason when he leaked the ID of our CIA agent and her undercover field office(and staff) to our enemies.


That used to be a hanging offense,even to Viet Nam era Americans.





Jesus! Valerie Plame sent her husband to ask some questions in Niger, and he came back with a malarky story that Iraqis had been there, but had only signed some trade agreements, not tried to buy yellowcake (BTW Uranium ore AKA yellowcake, is the only significant export Niger HAS so WHAT was the point of a trade agreement do ya think???) The trip was hatched between Plame and her bosses in Langley. She was NOT an undercover field officer, HAD no undercover staff, and the greatest danger she was in in the line of duty was from papercuts! However, after Bush's SOTU address, Plame's husband wrote an editorial in the Times saying that it was all lies, and they had his report (probably got used to line a birdcage somewhere, but the administration played hell trying to even find out who this guy WAS!) UPSHOT: They were only trying to show that Cheney DIDN'T send Mr. Loser on any secret mission, did not know about any inaccurate report, but because Valerie Plame was a paper shuffler at Langley, explaining that they were NOT guilty of subterfuge was somehow the equivalent of selling out someone undercover behind enemy lines!

BTW I'm not a Neocon, Bush was a RINO, Nixon, who the liberals think was the Devil of Vietnam Signed the EPA into law, and took the dollar off the freaking Gold Standard so He was a RINO before anyone knew what a RINO WAS!
Eisenhower, sen a HANDFUL of advisors to Vietnam, Kennedy a few more, But it took Lyndon Baines Johnson to send several divisions, including the Marines, but somehow NIXON gets remembered for that crap!

You haven't met any veterans who hold any grudges against Jane Fonda? I'm one, and I know MANY! When asked for an apology her idea of an apology was "I'm sorry you took offense at what I did." If that seems like an apology for what she DID then you are hopeless and not worth trying to reason with.

YES the freaking war was pretty damned pointless, BUT at the end, there were 20K NVA troops in SVN, and Vietnamization (with American air and Naval gunfire support) was well on track to destroy what was left. However as soon as the POW's came home the Democrat controlled Congress disallowed the use of ANY American forces in SVN (or anywhere else over 90 days) without Congressional approval (Remember the War Powers Act? Sound familiar? Liberal DEMOCRATS ran that through, and now a Liberal DEMOCRAT is ignoring it!) In short we HAD the war won, but the Congress wouldn't allow the administration to hold up their end of the bargain with the Govt of SVN. Read the Politically Incorrect History of the Vietnam War.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Hanoi Jane is trying to rewrite history once again - 7/22/2011 5:47:20 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Right,we know about Plamegate,cheney leaking her name,the destruction of Brewster Jennings & Associates, an established(in 1994) undercover field office that took years and a lot of resources to put together.


We`re not here to chat it up about history.

The tread is about Fonda.



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/22/2011 5:48:29 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to CharmCityCpl)
Profile   Post #: 80
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