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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 7:49:12 AM   
Owner59


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His very 1st words were combative and provocative.

I agree that he may never have been around youngsters, the way he came off all irrational and frightening.

The very respectful and poised response from the other guest just cut him in half.

Then he starts to freak out about how he may have appeared and gets more aggressive.

He treats it like a political debate,not listening to the calm,measured and helpful comments but waits for a pause and rams through a suggestion of a OB-GYN game,hurled like an insult.

Just over the top to be outrageous and not helpful with giving parents the info/insights they need.


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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 7:50:06 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I thought the grin and wink I included would have belied any perception of passive aggressive. Since it did not, I apologize that you came away with such. It certainly was not intended and I have never been accused of being passive-aggressive before so it's not something that I would ever have enjoined as an idea. I tend to say what I think and I do believe that I'm a pretty good diplomat except when it comes to my feelings about Congress and their gross ineptitude.

Wanna kiss and make up? ::grins:: <-- that denotes its a joke.. but, for the record.. I don't kiss and tell.


The wink and grins didn't really register on me... Icon are much better for that. I'm more than happy to kiss and make up but be warned... I've been known to cop a feel when getting smooched.

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 8:36:56 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Someone said earlier that dolls that pee were "silly", I had dolls that peed, I used them in the tub to watch them go. Children are curious about how their bodies work and what their parts are for. I see nothing wrong with a doll that will show them that their breasts are for feeding their offspring... because girls get the message from everywhere else that their boobs are only for a man's pleasure. Maybe we would have less women putting crap in their chest cavities to make them appear to have larger breasts if more females were taught from a young age what the real purpose of them is... they are not a "secondary sex organ" unless you are a man


Or a lesbian.

I can’t believe how much flak one dismissive statement over a toy has been generating. My labeling of the doll that breast feeds or one that pees as silly has nothing to do with whether it’s a good idea for children learn about their bodies, develop good self esteem etc, etc. It has to do with the over complication of toys in general. I guess I’m just an old fashioned guy who thinks toys should be simple so children can use their imaginations.

You are wrong about the “real” purpose of female breasts. Calling breast feeding the “real” purpose presupposes that it is the only purpose.

NOTE: the following is a cut and paste (slightly modified) from an earlier post because I didn’t feel like writing it all out again.

Nourishing her young is why human females – like all mammals – have mammary glands. But that is not the same things as boobs. Look at other female mammals and you will see that they have nothing approaching the large rounded breasts of human females. Yes, there will be some enlargement during lactation but compared to our females the rest of the mammal world is flat chested. Only human females have the extra layers of fat that give them what we call boobs, tits, bongos, knockers, etc. In fact, those extra layers of fat actually make it more difficult for human females to nurse their young (through the danger of suffocation) than their mammalian cousins (I read somewhere that small breasted women sometimes fear they will not be able to breast feed as well as larger breasted women and have to be informed that it is actually the opposite – it’s the larger breasted women who have more difficulty).

So why this development (pun not intended, but I’ll take it anyway) that would seem counterintuitive to the “needs” of evolution? Because when we stopped walking around on all fours and stood upright the female buttocks lost some (but by no means all) of its presence and prominence as a sexual signal. Now that we were standing upright and facing each other human females needed a new sexual signal to say: “Hey males, I’m female! Check me out!”

Women have mammary glands to feed their young. They have boobs to attract male sexual desire. Can anyone seriously argue that they don’t do their job very well?


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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 9:07:22 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

You are wrong about the “real” purpose of female breasts. Calling breast feeding the “real” purpose presupposes that it is the only purpose.


Then much of our body parts are repurposed constantly... for example... some men are aroused by feet and like to use them to get off... some men like thighs... etc etc etc

Some women get aroused by their ears being played with, some women get aroused by their toes being played with...

There are innumerous erogenous zones on the human body... there are many places where women's breasts are not eroticized, also... it is not a human universal.

As far as the description of the female body, women's lips are also suggestive of sexual reproduction (which is why we wear lipstick), but I do not see you suggesting the multiple "purposes" of lips (Ron can weigh in here)..

You mistake a secondary sexual characteristic with a sexual organ... men have secondary sexual characteristics, also, like increased body hair, upper body strength, narrow hips, etc etc etc

There are lots of places where women historically ran around topless, and in such places breasts were not made a big deal over, nor was nursing.

I will still say, the PRIMARY purpose of breasts is to feed young. There is only one body characteristic that seems to be universally found to attract men with the female body, and that is the hip to waist ratio... wider hips with a narrow waist has the connotation of fertility, health, and ability to deliver babies.... and men are attracted to that. It does not matter if thinness or heaviness are culturally desirable, the hip to waist ratio that men find most appealing remains the same.

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 10:05:32 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

Just a thought but I think the mods should consider starting a new forum section called "Fox Watch" into which all treads giving out about Fox should go.

One of the biggest stories in the world right now is about the company that owns Fox, why does it bother you that we would want to discuss a story of international importance?

That doesn't bother me at all. I can understand discussing the Murdock connection in depth but one feature of the P&R section for a long time now is that there are often several active threads giving out about Fox. I can understand you objecting to Fox especially because you are strongly left-wing as you said before but there are several other big news organisations/channels and they all seem to have editorial issues, biases etc. Its pretty much the same in Europe too.

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 11:39:54 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I can understand you objecting to Fox especially because you are strongly left-wing


I am anti cable news for the most part... the Fox model has become ubiquitous in broadcast journalism.... if you ever get a chance watch an old documentary called "Out-Foxed".... it discusses the changes in news since the rise of this network, and the way in which they have changed the business over the course of their existence.

Fox is the highest rated news network... in big business and ad revenue ratings matter, so Fox's way of doing things became the industry standard as other networks have copied them. I do not watch any cable outlets for "news". I watch them for entertainment, but I have no illusion that I am being unbiasedly "informed" by watching Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann.... I watch nothing else on any news channel. I read the news from several different sources... Politico, Huffington Post... I peruse google to see what people are talking about. I read The Guardian, NPR (Amy Goodman). I used to read The Wall Street Journal, I read the Washington Post, and the NY Times (which I find often right leaning).... I like the BBC, too... England has a hire standard of journalism in my experience reading them when it comes to international news.

I used to like the SF Gate...

I think limiting one's self to only on voice, or viewing one cable news channel to be limiting as to the view of the world one sees... and I actually pity people who will not explore other forms of media and think they actually have a broad view of things... they just don't.

I think this is not a left or a right issue, but one of more voices and choices lead to a free press... something that the monopolistic practices within our media have decimated.

Good argument for this is a documentary called Manufacturing Consent...

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 12:42:01 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Then much of our body parts are repurposed constantly... for example... some men are aroused by feet and like to use them to get off... some men like thighs... etc etc etc

Some women get aroused by their ears being played with, some women get aroused by their toes being played with...

There are innumerous erogenous zones on the human body...


True, but I wasn’t talking about breasts so much as an erogenous zone as a sexual signaler to attract male attention… a means of saying “I’m female, so straighten your hair and suck in your gut.”

quote:

there are many places where women's breasts are not eroticized, also... it is not a human universal.


I’m willing to bet that the cultures which do not obsess about breasts the way Western culture does are also cultures that haven’t been saddled (or are breaking away from) the Judeo-Christian notion that nudity is immoral. In other words it is the forbidden fruit syndrome. Even though these cultures may not get bent out of shape over a bare breast that doesn’t mean the men there don’t find them attractive. It just means their eyes don’t pop out of their head every time they see a bare boob. I can attest to this myself. In my younger, more carefree, days a mixed group of friends and me would spend some time at an isolated cabin in the woods where clothing was optional. The first few minutes my eyes would bulge at the sight of those wonderful ta-ta’s. Half an hour later I’m in the lawn chair reading a book. I still though boobs were great, I just no longer had the need to get all the looking in that I could. I’m also willing to bet that if women walked around wearing nothing but gloves we would have magazines and web sites devoted to showing bare handed women (Look at the index finger on that babe! Woo Hoo!).

quote:

As far as the description of the female body, women's lips are also suggestive of sexual reproduction (which is why we wear lipstick), but I do not see you suggesting the multiple "purposes" of lips (Ron can weigh in here )..


No, but just because lips don’t serve a dual purpose (??) doesn’t mean that other parts of our anatomy doesn’t. We use our ears to hear and to keep our balance. The penis is used for urination but that’s not its’ only function. The female breasts is also dual purpose.

quote:

You mistake a secondary sexual characteristic with a sexual organ... men have secondary sexual characteristics, also, like increased body hair, upper body strength, narrow hips, etc etc etc


Again, not so much a sexual organ as a sexual attractor and, even more importantly, a sexual identifier.

quote:

There are lots of places where women historically ran around topless, and in such places breasts were not made a big deal over, nor was nursing.


Again, I think this has more to do with cultural hang-ups (or the lack thereof) than with sexuality.

quote:

I will still say, the PRIMARY purpose of breasts is to feed young. There is only one body characteristic that seems to be universally found to attract men with the female body, and that is the hip to waist ratio... wider hips with a narrow waist has the connotation of fertility, health, and ability to deliver babies.... and men are attracted to that. It does not matter if thinness or heaviness are culturally desirable, the hip to waist ratio that men find most appealing remains the same.


If you want to use the word “primary” rather than the word “real” you won’t get a disagreement from me. But the fact remains that human females alone amongst mammals have developed the large, rounded breast shape that really isn’t needed (and is actually somewhat counter productive) for feeding and the reason for that is not maternal but sexual.

ETA: Thinking about the Forbidden Fruit" syndrome reminded me of the bare leg scene in THIS video.


< Message edited by Marc2b -- 7/21/2011 12:44:39 PM >


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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 1:01:45 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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One theory (though 10 or 15 years old, perhaps its changed since then) is that the shape of the female breasts developed because for the most successful reproducers, cleavage resembled buttocks. Since early primates primarily mounted from behind, and that was the signaler.

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 1:11:30 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I’m willing to bet that the cultures which do not obsess about breasts the way Western culture does are also cultures that haven’t been saddled (or are breaking away from) the Judeo-Christian notion that nudity is immoral.


This is very true, which is why this doll is not just a "toy" really, it is a cultural statement that using breasts as nutritional delivery systems is natural and normal. There are still some places where women get frowned at for feeding their offspring!

I nursed my son for almost a year. When I first had him and nursed him I experienced this epiphany that sex was not just about pleasure for myself and my partner, it was also very much about making life. The fact I could feed another person with my body was really weird to me in a good sort of way... I had thought of my breasts as just sexual objects before that experience, and on a deep emotional level I saw my body in a completely different way... I do not know if I am different from a lot of women, but if I am not, it says a lot about the cultural messages we get about our bodies, reproduction, the celebration of maidenhood versus motherhood...Our culture not only hides breast feeding, until very recently maternity clothing was designed to minimize pregnancy, and not all that long ago, women hid while pregnant.

quote:

If you want to use the word “primary” rather than the word “real” you won’t get a disagreement from me.




The entire purpose of sex is reproductive... meaning that the real purpose of our sexual characteristics is to attract, the purpose behind our sexuality is to reproduce, the real purpose of a female's body is to attract the fittest mate, get pregnant, have a baby, and then rear it.... all of our hormones and our anatomy are geared up to have babies and feed them with our bodies.. this is the only provable purpose we have...

So yes, after having a child, nursing that child, I see the real purpose of my breasts as a nutritional delivery system. I may enjoy the pleasure a man takes from them. I may enjoy having them fondled, etc... but that does not change in my mind as a woman what the purpose of my mammary glands are... and since I have them and have used them for their intended real purpose I feel qualified to say this.

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 1:21:10 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

I can understand you objecting to Fox especially because you are strongly left-wing

I am anti cable news for the most part... the Fox model has become ubiquitous in broadcast journalism.... if you ever get a chance watch an old documentary called "Out-Foxed".... it discusses the changes in news since the rise of this network, and the way in which they have changed the business over the course of their existence.

I watched a bit of Outfoxed, Bill O'Reilly saying shut up etc.

quote:


Fox is the highest rated news network... in big business and ad revenue ratings matter, so Fox's way of doing things became the industry standard as other networks have copied them. I do not watch any cable outlets for "news". I watch them for entertainment, but I have no illusion that I am being unbiasedly "informed" by watching Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann.... I watch nothing else on any news channel. I read the news from several different sources... Politico, Huffington Post... I peruse google to see what people are talking about. I read The Guardian, NPR (Amy Goodman). I used to read The Wall Street Journal, I read the Washington Post, and the NY Times (which I find often right leaning).... I like the BBC, too... England has a hire standard of journalism in my experience reading them when it comes to international news.

I used to like the SF Gate...

Yeah it is the biggest channel, MSNBC coming second with half the number of viewers. The thing is that even though its commentary is conservative leaning, many democrats like it too if the articles I read are correct. If Fox have such a big majority then a question has to be asked: why? Its no secret the media generally has some level of left wing bias.

I really don't like the BBC, and thats not just because I'm Irish. I heard quite a few stories about the carry on inside it. They are a bunch of jokers. The Back Bone Corporation actually changed the programming schedule when Di died for ages to avoid upsetting viewers so any hospital dramas for example were taken off the schedules! They royally shafted Jonathan Ross big time over the faux outrage of the Russell-Brand/Satanic-Sluts controversy in 2008, and Peter Sissons confirmed that they have a distinct prejudice toward anyone who doesn't have left leaning views. This affected employees across the board. He went to town on the organisation in his book last year.

If you think British journalism is very good then you should read Private Eye. I think Journalism in the UK can be very good but its mixed with an awful lot of the dubious too.

quote:


I think limiting one's self to only on voice, or viewing one cable news channel to be limiting as to the view of the world one sees... and I actually pity people who will not explore other forms of media and think they actually have a broad view of things... they just don't.

I think this is not a left or a right issue, but one of more voices and choices lead to a free press... something that the monopolistic practices within our media have decimated.

Good argument for this is a documentary called Manufacturing Consent...

Agreed. I had Fox for a few years when I had cable. I thought it was just OK like other 24 Hr news channels but didn't watch it much. However, it didn't strike me as evil or whatever so I can't understand the venom people have for it on here. I try to watch and read from left and right wing sources. My philosophy is that no one news organisation can consistently possess all truth. I think that makes sense since editorial decisions almost inevitably reflect a given person's interests, especially today with advocasy journalism.

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 1:40:02 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I watched a bit of Outfoxed, Bill O'Reilly saying shut up etc.


If that was the most important thing you got out of it, then you did not receive the full value...

Here is an example of how they have changed the face of news

"Some people say...."





quote:

why? Its no secret the media generally has some level of left wing bias.


The media does not have a left wing bias, it has a corporate bias. The role of media is to sell ads with very few exceptions. The media being in the hands of fewer and fewer people with their own corporate agenda is far from left wing... seriously, when people say this it makes me laugh... it is like saying that Obama is a socialist when he can't wait to stick his nose up the ass of the party of NO.

quote:

If you think British journalism is very good then you should read Private Eye. I think Journalism in the UK can be very good but its mixed with an awful lot of the dubious too.


The bar for sources is somewhat different and higher in the UK than it is here, and from what I understand, being able to sue for libel is easier, also

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 1:48:15 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

This is very true, which is why this doll is not just a "toy" really, it is a cultural statement that using breasts as nutritional delivery systems is natural and normal. There are still some places where women get frowned at for feeding their offspring!

I nursed my son for almost a year. When I first had him and nursed him I experienced this epiphany that sex was not just about pleasure for myself and my partner, it was also very much about making life. The fact I could feed another person with my body was really weird to me in a good sort of way... I had thought of my breasts as just sexual objects before that experience, and on a deep emotional level I saw my body in a completely different way... I do not know if I am different from a lot of women, but if I am not, it says a lot about the cultural messages we get about our bodies, reproduction, the celebration of maidenhood versus motherhood...Our culture not only hides breast feeding, until very recently maternity clothing was designed to minimize pregnancy, and not all that long ago, women hid while pregnant.


Jeeze Louise Eating Peas! Alright already! I give! The fracking doll isn’t silly! But “cultural statement” still seems like an awful lot to heap upon a piece of plastic. My Grand-niece seems to do fine with her teddy bear.

quote:

The entire purpose of sex is reproductive... meaning that the real purpose of our sexual characteristics is to attract, the purpose behind our sexuality is to reproduce, the real purpose of a female's body is to attract the fittest mate, get pregnant, have a baby, and then rear it.... all of our hormones and our anatomy are geared up to have babies and feed them with our bodies.. this is the only provable purpose we have...

So yes, after having a child, nursing that child, I see the real purpose of my breasts as a nutritional delivery system. I may enjoy the pleasure a man takes from them. I may enjoy having them fondled, etc... but that does not change in my mind as a woman what the purpose of my mammary glands are... and since I have them and have used them for their intended real purpose I feel qualified to say this.


My buggaboo with the word “real” in this context is that is pretty much means “only” (since all other purposes would have to be unreal). Yet the fact remains that women could still feed their young without all of that extra connective and fatty tissue surrounding the mammary glands. Now if you want to put bouncing boobs in a sequence of events that leads to suckling babies… I’ve no problem with that since, from an evolutionary perspective, pretty much everything is about reproduction.

Let’s just say that breasts are great multi-taskers and leave it at that.


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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 1:53:23 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Jeeze Louise Eating Peas! Alright already! I give! The fracking doll isn’t silly! But “cultural statement” still seems like an awful lot to heap upon a piece of plastic. My Grand-niece seems to do fine with her teddy bear.


For little girls their dolls are really important... an example, Barbie used to have a body type that if you blew her up to life size she would be impossible to be like. Her waist would be like 19 inches, and she would be like 5 foot 10 with a 19 inch waist. Her breasts would be over a DD... her legs would be a few inches longer than what is found in nature. In other words, the "ideal" was impossible to achieve. In recent years they changed this and Barbie has a body type that can be found in nature... and yes, that is a social/cultural statement.




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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 4:01:05 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

I watched a bit of Outfoxed, Bill O'Reilly saying shut up etc.

If that was the most important thing you got out of it, then you did not receive the full value...

I only saw a bit of the documentary.

quote:


quote:

why? Its no secret the media generally has some level of left wing bias.

The media does not have a left wing bias, it has a corporate bias. The role of media is to sell ads with very few exceptions. The media being in the hands of fewer and fewer people with their own corporate agenda is far from left wing... seriously, when people say this it makes me laugh... it is like saying that Obama is a socialist when he can't wait to stick his nose up the ass of the party of NO.

I have some sympathy for your argument about there being a corporate agenda to an extent but I have to disagree that there isn't any left wing bias at all. When I say "left-wing" I don't mean socialist of course but a milder leftism that advances certain values. I don't necessarily object strongly to those values BTW but think ultimately that it is unethical to push world-views masquerading as entertainment or news. Here is an extract of what Peter Sissons said in his book about the BBC http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349506/Left-wing-bias-Its-written-BBCs-DNA-says-Peter-Sissons.html - he is one of the most famous news anchormen in the UK (in case you don't know).

quote:


quote:

If you think British journalism is very good then you should read Private Eye. I think Journalism in the UK can be very good but its mixed with an awful lot of the dubious too.

The bar for sources is somewhat different and higher in the UK than it is here, and from what I understand, being able to sue for libel is easier, also

I don't know enough about US journalism to offer much in the way of comment but the UK (as with my own homeland) doesn't seem particularly good when it comes to standards.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 7/21/2011 4:02:22 PM >

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 4:34:26 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Sometimes I think we need an exclusive thread for those dozen or so Posters (I don't think I need to name names) who spend most of their posting time telling each other how stupid they are. They can then dispense with all of the political BS that usually starts the shit flinging contest and just get down to business:

You're stupid!

No, you're stupid!

You're stupid times a thousand!

You're stupid times a million!

You're stupid times ifinity!

You're stupid times ifinity plus one!


Did someone say something about stupidity?

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 5:03:42 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b


I didn't say breast feeding was silly (nor would I) nor did I say that little girls pretending to breast feed was silly... I said the doll was silly. It is silly for the same reason that those dolls that "eat" or "piss" are silly. They're not really needed. All a kid needs is an object and some imagination. My niece is currently breastfeeding her newborn and I've seen her four year old daughter "breastfeeding" her teddy bear.


I got that you were talking about the doll and it was the doll about which I was asking.

Toys are silly because they are not needed. Got it. Thank you for answering my question. It's a legit reason. Maybe I should adopt that stance myself.. would save a ton of money on bday and Xmas presents for the grandsons. ::grins:: Eh.. nah. Guess not. For me it isn't about giving kids stuff they need. That's for the parents. I'm the grandma.. I'm going to give out the silly stuff they actually want... you know.. within reason. ::wink::



Just curious, how did you get from kids not needing a doll that can breastfeed to they don't need toys at all? I reread the post you replied to a couple times and I am not seeing it.

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RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 5:09:02 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Just a thought but I think the mods should consider starting a new forum section called "Fox Watch" into which all treads giving out about Fox should go.


One of the biggest stories in the world right now is about the company that owns Fox, why does it bother you that we would want to discuss a story of international importance?



Ablow being accused of being a pedo is a story of international importance?

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(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/21/2011 5:36:03 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Just a thought but I think the mods should consider starting a new forum section called "Fox Watch" into which all treads giving out about Fox should go.


One of the biggest stories in the world right now is about the company that owns Fox, why does it bother you that we would want to discuss a story of international importance?



Ablow being accused of being a pedo is a story of international importance?


If you read what I was responding to, it was the number of current threads about Fox, not this thread.


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(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/22/2011 5:19:06 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Let’s just say that breasts are great multi-taskers...

Just as women are!

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Fox News contributor insists he's 'not a pedophile' - 7/22/2011 5:23:51 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
I’m willing to bet that the cultures which do not obsess about breasts the way Western culture does are also cultures that haven’t been saddled (or are breaking away from) the Judeo-Christian notion that nudity is immoral.

Quite. The evil Mooslims have no problem at all with female nudity, do they?

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(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 60
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