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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 10:06:24 AM

Musicmystery

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Unfortunately, there are many with the urge to hype it, adding their own speculations to the actual science of it.

Probably not so much on Google, but in library databases you can find studies by Tiller, Schwarz, and a handful of Russian studies. It's all new too, and ongoing, so you have to take "what we find so far" with "what we think we may know and are currently testing to find out."

The DNA studies are separate--there are several. Again, if you Google, you get the bullshit "I'm a Light Being" pages, verses the scientific studies (at least without a great deal of weeding). But the studies are there--library databases are perhaps a better bet here.

An interesting read, incidentally, is Lynne McTaggart's book "The Field." The full title and cover art are sensationalistic, but the content restricts itself to replicable double-blind studies by published scientists. It's not her latest, so used copies are available on Amazon.

(in reply to RapierFugue)

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 10:09:03 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Unfortunately, there are many with the urge to hype it, adding their own speculations to the actual science of it.

Probably not so much on Google, but in library databases you can find studies by Tiller, Schwarz, and a handful of Russian studies. It's all new too, and ongoing, so you have to take "what we find so far" with "what we think we may know and are currently testing to find out."

The DNA studies are separate--there are several. Again, if you Google, you get the bullshit "I'm a Light Being" pages, verses the scientific studies (at least without a great deal of weeding). But the studies are there--library databases are perhaps a better bet here.

An interesting read, incidentally, is Lynne McTaggart's book "The Field." The full title and cover art are sensationalistic, but the content restricts itself to replicable double-blind studies by published scientists. It's not her latest, so used copies are available on Amazon.

Thanks, I'll have a look when next I have the time.

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Post #: 42

RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 10:24:24 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Oh if that would be true, then all doctors would stop doing knee surgery, it might have been ONE experiment, but it would be worth seeing what was wrong and hesitate to claim it will work on everybody and all the time.

The placebo effect can work, but if it would work reliably, we'd all be getting sugar pills and not real meds and the health insurances would be making a massive profit because a sugar pill is a lot cheaper than surgery or real medication!

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people here go to bizarre either/or extremes.

Yes, it's one experiment. I said so myself. Did you expect me to list the hundreds of studies on the placebo effect? Do you expect everything that works to be used exclusively? My own knee problems were handled not with (1) anti-inflammatory drugs, which work, or (2) physical therapy, which works, but rather (3) a combination, which eliminated the problem.

This is a silly point. The placebo effect is extensively studies and documented, and for years. From there, we have the silly Perfectionist Fallacy. Why silly? Heart surgery doesn't always work, therefore it's not useful? Chemotherapy doesn't always work, therefore it's not useful?

Your comparison to holograms is just silly. Surely you can tell the difference between unsupported claims and documented research, with clear methodology and demonstrable, replicable results?

Surely you can see how ONE experiment that you cited (without giving a link) is not remotely scientific, if you actually look into the placebo effect, all the studies show that it has a higher failure than it works and that it only works in certain cases and usually does not have long term effects. To compare heart surgery and chemo with placebos is beyond silly, it's simply dumb.

You go on and on about documented research, clear methodology and demonstrable, replicable results - please do show some evidence, because so far your claims are pretty unsupported.

I'm very open for alternative healing methods, but I want to see scientific evidence, if sounds could heal on a DNA level, then how come that they were used in most primitive medicines, but mainly as chants and rhythms to lull somebody into a trance? If it would have been such an effective way of healing, why has nobody made use of it before? Especially those cultures who don't have the benefit of Western medicine? It just doesn't seem to make sense.

In the late 70's and 80's was a guy who in Europe sprouted a lot of stuff about how cancer patients should not have surgery but rely on his healing plan, an aunt spent a fortune, the cancer spread through her body and in the end she couldn't have surgery anymore, she didn't go in a nice way, of course there is no guarantee that surgery might have cured her, but she might not have died so soon or quite so painful. Personally I think the guy was a charlatan and should have been locked up.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 10:32:38 AM

Musicmystery

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There's no point in repeating the obvious.

The Placebo Effect has been studied to death. That's not good enough for you, fine.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=The+Placebo+Effect&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

Since you again jumped to something clearly unscientific as a comparison, I have to assume you aren't actually interested in looking at the methodology or the documented, replicable results of real studies...or you wouldn't keep bringing in wacko examples.

And that's up to you. But blanket dismissal without consideration is hardly "scientific."

Your jump to the Perfectionist Fallacy on something as well documented as the Placebo Effect pretty much sets the tone here. If you're going to balk at something already so well-established, there's no point getting into fresh new research just unfolding. Read the studies or not. Believe what you want instead.

Scientific paradigms change. Our current one will too, in time, as we continually learn more about ourselves and our world.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/25/2011 11:02:47 AM >

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 10:33:49 AM

Termyn8or

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"My favorite is the knee surgery one--half the patients had surgery, the others were just opened and closed, no surgery (but were told they had the surgery. They ALL reported the SAME improvements. "

Interesting. I think in the next line you meant psysiological instead of psychological no ? I will not dispute the fact that the mind can affect the body, not by a longshot. However I find it a bit hard to believe that a surgeon would open up a human body with all that entails and then not actually perform the actual surgery unless he found something in there that contraindicated the procedure. Hard to believe, but not impossible to believe.

The crux of it must be the actual cause of the disease. As I have asserted, many maladies are caused by nutritional deficiencies, but that can't be just taken at face value either. Different bodies absorb the various essential nutrients at different rates, and that is determined by body chemistry and the brain can have quite an effect on body chemistry. The simple fact that some people throw up when exposed to certain sights or smells is quite a strong indication of the mind's effect on the digestive system. That is an extreme example of course, but then it stands to reason that the mind can affect the digestive process in more subtle ways.
'
However exposure to sound or light cannot create atoms. If the deficiency is severe, the only cure is to supply the body with what it needs. There is no getting out of that. But of course there is still the fact that these nutrients must be properly digested and metabolised. If the machine doesn't work properly, the best fuel in the world might not do a thing for it.

I'd like to know more about that knee situation. I'm always interested in things like that, but I've never heard of it. Also, there are usually more variables than counted, but the placebo effect is quite well documented. There has been enough research that in at least some cases the other variables were insignificant.

T^T

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 10:36:44 AM

Musicmystery

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I think, Term, much of all this is about bringing the body/mind/whatever back into a balance, so that it can do its natural thing.

The knee study was published in the July 11, 2002 New England Journal of Medicine; I provided the link earlier.

Google Scholar has some interesting stuff from William Tiller, Gary Schwartz, and the useful "related articles" link.

There's a lot about DNA and light too, as well as music and healing.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/25/2011 10:45:22 AM >

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 10:42:51 AM

Termyn8or

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I just notiticed. I responded to that particular post and just now read the rest. I will have a look.

ETA rather then making another post.

The surgery in that case I think was debridement. I found it can be accomplished by methods other than surgery. This does not negate the results, but it puts them in a certain perspective.

However after 100 patients over 2 years, the results are pretty solid. It really comes down to ; what do these results indicate, and just as important, what do they not ?

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 7/25/2011 11:02:57 AM >

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 11:03:02 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

rather than the kind of horseshit that gets lumped in with it, like say homeopathy (the number one New Age horseshit "cure").

Effectiveness of the homeopathic preparation Zeel compared with carprofen in dogs with osteoarthritis

The authors compared the symptomatic effectiveness of a complex homeopathic preparation Zeel (1-3 tablets orally per day depending on body weight) to carprofen (4 mg/kg body weight) in dogs (n=68) aged >1 yr diagnosed with osteoarthritis in a multicenter, prospective, observational open-label cohort study in 12 German veterinary clinics...

At the end of the treatment period, effectiveness was comparable in both groups. Both treatment regimens were well tolerated with only three treatment-related adverse events, all in the carprofen group.

Effects of homeopathic medicines on mood of adults with histories of coffee-related insomnia.

The purpose of this within-subjects feasibility study was to determine whether two different homeopathic remedies, Nux Vomica (NV) and Coffea Cruda (CC), exert effects on subjective mood ratings in healthy adults with a history of coffee-induced insomnia. The impact of individual personality traits, anxiety sensitivity or Type A cynical hostility, and homeopathic constitutional type (HTYPE-NV, HTYPE-CC), on remedy effects was examined to evaluate differential responsivity, in accord with clinical claims.

The remedies produced differential effects on anger and overall mood, with improved mood following CC administration. A similar trend for depression was observed. Anxiety sensitive subjects experienced less tension following CC, whereas hostile subjects receiving CC became more tense. The high HTYPE-CC receiving CC experienced less vigor. The high HTYPE-CC receiving NV experienced more vigor.

Homeopathic Symphytum officinale increases removal torque and radiographic bone density around titanium implants in rats.

This study evaluated the effect of Symphytum officinale in homeopathic potency (6cH), on the removal torque and radiographic bone density around titanium implants, inserted in rats tibiae... Both removal torque and radiographic bone density evaluation showed that S. officinale 6cH treatment enhanced bone formation around the micro-implants, mainly at 14 days.

At 56 days, the radiographic bone density was higher in the treated group. We conclude that S. officinale 6cH enhances, principally at the early stages of osseointegration, bone formation around titanium implants in rats' tibiae, based on radiographic and mechanical analysis.

Tumor therapy with Amanita phalloides (death cap): stabilization of B-cell chronic lymphatic leukemia.

Molecular events that cause tumor formation upregulate a number of HOX genes, called switch genes, coding for RNA polymerase II transcription factors... To widen the treatment spectrum, homeopathic dilutions of Amanita phalloides, containing amanitin, were given to a patient with leukemia. Monitoring the leukemic cell count, different doses of amanitin were given.

The former duplication time of leukemic cells was 21 months. Within a period of 21 months, the cell count is stabilized to around 10(5)/μL. No leukemia-associated symptoms, liver damage, or continuous erythrocyte deprivation occur... This new principle of tumor therapy shows high potential to provide a gentle medical treatment.

K.

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Post #: 48

RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 11:34:13 AM

Musicmystery

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A couple of Tiller papers, for those interested, from Google Scholar:

[PDF] White Paper XI: An Experimental Investigation of Some Reconnective-Healing Workshops via a Unique Subtle Energy Detector
[PDF] from tillerfoundation.comWA Tiller… - 2009

Our last dozen years of experimental and theoretical research in the psychoenergetics science area(1-4) has revealed that there are two uniquely different levels of physical reality and not just our normal, electric charge, atom/molecule level. In nature, these two levels of uniquely different kinds of substance appear to function in either (a) the uncoupled state, where they do not interact with each other on a macroscopic level, or (b) the coupled state where they do partially
interact with each other.

Science & Medicine, May / June 1999: "Subtle Energies"
Dr. William A. Tiller joined the Stanford University faculty as Professor of Physics in 1964 after nine years with Westinghouse Research Laboratory. He became Professor Emeritus in 1992 in order to devote himself to research in solid state physics and materials science as well as in his avocational field, psychoenergetics. He holds several patents, and he has written four books and more than 300 papers.

There is now a large body of experimental data in the general area of psychoenergetics associated with the directed focus of human intention. Re- mote influence experiments with healers, remote viewing experiments, investigations of psychokinetics, clairvoyance, homeopathy, and other phenomena confound the established picture of natural laws but attest to the existence of processes requiring the involvement of emotional, mental, spiritual, and other inadequately understood domains of nature.

Because these domains are incompletely understood, they might best be grouped into a category called "subtle energies." Future research may delineate and distinguish the various characteristics of these energies and their usefulness in medicine. For now, subtle energies can be defined as all those energies beyond those presently acknowledged in physics. Four kinds of force are-conventionally considered to be responsible for all the observable phenomena in the universe: the strong and weak nuclear forces, the electromagnetic force, and the gravitational force. Subtle energies and the subtle forces they generate are not necessarily strong or weak with respect to the established forces, but they are difficult to nail down with the standard protocols of today's science. It is useful to reflect for a moment on what the science of physics is able to do and not able to do. Physics attempts to develop a relative framework of quantitative understanding that is internally consistent across all the various observable phenomena of nature. Physics is not able to provide absolute truth.

On chemical medicine, thermodynamics, and homeopathy
WA Tiller - Journal of Alternative & Complementary Medicine, 2006 [PDF]

The author indicates why homeopathic medicine is an example of future information medicine, a member of the more general psychophysiological medicine group. Using standard chemical thermodynamics, it is readily shown that the driving force for all chemical reactions involves the logarithm of chemical activities for the different species involved. Since chemical activity is given by the product of concentration and thermodynamic activity coefficient, such reaction driving forces involve the sum of ln γj and ln cj for the j-species. Homeopathy involves the dilution of cj and succussion which can increase γj; thus, when cj goes to the ultradilution state, the thermodynamic driving force for change does not disappear as is assumed by many and, in fact, can even increase through the ln γj terms. Going to a more complex reference frame for viewing nature, one can, at least, qualitatively show how oscillating and decaying properties in time can occur for homeopathic remedies.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/25/2011 12:24:57 PM >

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Post #: 49

RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 12:46:31 PM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

White Paper XI: from tillerfoundation.comWA

Homeopathy.pdf

WA Tiller - Journal of Alternative & Complementary Medicine, 2006 [PDF]

The author indicates why homeopathic medicine is an example of future information medicine, a member of the more general psychophysiological medicine group. Using standard chemical thermodynamics, it is readily shown that the driving force for all chemical reactions involves the logarithm of chemical activities for the different species involved. Since chemical activity is given by the product of concentration and thermodynamic activity coefficient, such reaction driving forces involve the sum of ln γj and ln cj for the j-species. Homeopathy involves the dilution of cj and succussion which can increase γj; thus, when cj goes to the ultradilution state, the thermodynamic driving force for change does not disappear as is assumed by many and, in fact, can even increase through the ln γj terms. Going to a more complex reference frame for viewing nature, one can, at least, qualitatively show how oscillating and decaying properties in time can occur for homeopathic remedies.

Ah ok, it's more of the usual horseshit. Cheers.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 2:53:15 PM

Musicmystery

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Can't tell you anything about homoepathy...don't know the first thing about it. I saw the third link and added it for Kirata's benefit.

I CAN tell you that "believing" and "measurable, demonstrable, replicable results" are very different things. You obviously couldn't be bothered to read.

Check out Carl Sagan's "The Burden of Skepticism," which discusses the difference between a scientist's skepticism and merely rejecting anything that comes your way. There's a burden to dismissal, and a priori disbelief isn't it.

I can understand your stance. My position in this instance benefits from unexpected personal experience. Nonetheless, though my take on homeopathy out of the gate was as yours, Kirata's links immediately show as false your blanket dismissal of it, and as one of the parts of "The Field" (which I'm just beginning to read) is McTaggart's investigation of double-blind controlled studies on...homoepathy. So I'm curious. Not convinced...but open and curious, interested in seeing the research.

Anyone can simply wave a hand and pronounce "Horseshit." That you're dismissing along with homoepathy things that have no apparent connection makes the move all the more specious. It's random, and frankly, that's horseshit. I don't know how gravity works. No one does. But I can see the observable and measurable results, and I can replicate Newton's apple experiment, so I'm not prepared to call gravity horseshit quite yet. I at least need to be able to come up with a better explanation than Newton's, one that's also measurable, demonstrable, and replicable, that explains more things.

So Cheers. Frankly, you could use a primer on what science is. Here's one of my favorites--especially because it addresses the problems of people making spectacular claims in the absence of real science:

Stephen Jay Gould: "Sex, Drugs, Disasters, and the Extinction of Dinosaurs."

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/25/2011 3:04:54 PM >

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 2:58:19 PM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Anyone can simply wave a hand and pronounce "Horseshit."

And, when it comes to homeopathy, that's exactly what I do.

It's utter horseshit. It's bad enough when their pseudo-science attempts to leverage the placebo effect, but when they try to bring actual "science" (or rather, their horseshit version of it) to the party, the results are always laughable.

It's horseshit, and anyone who believes it is an idiot.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 3:07:06 PM

Musicmystery

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Fine. I have no stance on the matter, as I said.

Nor have you, beyond an attitude.

And that still leaves us off topic.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 3:08:34 PM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Nor have you, beyond an attitude.

100% incorrect, but you can do your own research.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 3:19:54 PM

Musicmystery

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Exactly the point.

All you've offered in this thread is dismissal and a refusal to look at research--not simple web links, but research.

That's an attitude, not a position. A position demonstrates the problem, vs. out of hand dismissal.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 3:27:15 PM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's an attitude, not a position. A position demonstrates the problem, vs. out of hand dismissal.

I'm not going to get into this, because it's a waste of my time, but I've been through the "science" of homeopathy from an actual, genuinely scientific standpoint, and been employed to do so, and it's 100% unmitigated horseshit. I have no interest in wasting any time whatsoever in educating you, but the genuine research is out there, and I would encourage others to seek it out.

The following isn't "proof" of any kind, it's just wonderful comedy, but it does, if you watch to the end, give some clue as to one of the 7 main issues with homeopathy.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2785985155605802136#

I repeat; homeopathy is pure horseshit, and if a homeopath, or anyone associated with the homeopathic industry, would care to sue me for saying so, then they are more than welcome to do so.

Hint: they won't. Coz it's horseshit.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 3:37:59 PM

Musicmystery

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Fine. As I said, I've no idea about the homeopathy matter.

Here's your position: A is horseshit.

Therefore, B and C, even though they have no apparent connection to A, are also horseshit.

Also, no new evidence or research on A is ever possible, as it was already declared horseshit.

Agreed, not a promising direction for any meaningful conversation.

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Post #: 57

RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 3:44:45 PM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Agreed, not a promising direction for any meaningful conversation.

By all means continue with the woolly thinking and pseudo "logic".

You're not the first, and you sure as hell won't be the last :)

BTW I wasn't saying your sphere of endeavour was definitely horseshit, because I haven't researched it over many months, and been paid to do so. I merely said that those references you posted were horseshit, packed as they were with many of the bullshit buzzwords and self-defining tripe that characterise such "studies". If what you're doing is reliant on those as proofs then it's almost certainly horseshit, but if it isn't, and I didn't think you were saying it was, then I'm happy to maintain an open mind on it until such time as someone pays me lots of money to investigate it and settle the matter one way or the other.

But homeopathy, and its principles, are horseshit.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 3:52:35 PM

popeye1250

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I don't know but it is "spiritual" and if you really like the music it can lower your blood pressure right away I read somewhere.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/25/2011 4:00:06 PM

Hippiekinkster

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http://www.amazon.com/Drumming-Edge-Magic-Journey-Percussion/dp/1888358181

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