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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 11:44:31 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

This led to a dish at The Fat Duck, where you get served "Memories Of The Sea", which is a large, attractive box, lined with sand and large shells (as little dishes), with prepared seafood in said shells, while you're then given iPods to listen to as you eat, with seashore sounds playing :)

The dish sounds lovely, especially in the presentation you described.
Unfortunately, I would be in Group D, as in Doesn't Eat Seafood.

Oh shame :( Fish and shellfish?

The other thing that struck me is that it's a bit of a false construct - I mean you wouldn't want to eat steak while listening to barnyard noises. Would you?

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 12:36:04 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

And here is where everything you say blows up in your face. ADD has existed, been diagnosed and treated with Ritalin since at least the 60s. Quite a bit longer than the last 15 years, when is apparently when you first heard about it.

Thanks for proving the point even more convincingly than I about the coincidence of the latest miracle drug with 'recognition' of a theretofore unknown condition.

quote:

A few things about ADD, yes it is often misdiagnosed ...

When the 'condition' is created out of the 'cure,' diagnosis is a lot easier. No 'misdiagnosis' at all, just a matter of accommodating the dysfunctional education system with another 'magic pill.'

quote:

... or used as a means for parents to not have to responsibly parent their children,

I know more than 8 different parent couples that had one or more of their kids on Ritalin, and in none of these cases were the parents in the leastwise irresponsible or incapable of dealing with their children, nor did they do such a thing to their child of their own accord. They were basically given an ultimatum by 'the administration' at their school.

Guess who got hit the hardest by that add and relentless 'infomercial' campaign?

Thank goodness, all these parents eventually caught up with the fraud after discovering so many others in the same situation, and took their kids off of the speed.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/26/2011 12:43:57 PM >

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 1:44:18 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Anyone can simply wave a hand and pronounce "Horseshit."

It's difficult to understand how anyone could blather on about leveraging the placebo effect following the posting of a study in which divergent outcomes were observed under the same expectation conditions, and another in which the subjects were rats!

Too, with respect to music merely affecting mood, the effects of sound (pure tones of different frequencies, continuous and intermittent, as well as music) on the growth of plants is so well known that it's been overdone as a junior high school science project. So the contribution of music at least to wellness, if not actual healing, seems to encompass more than just mood (one researcher suggests that different frequencies or combinations thereof may be turning genes on and off).

More generally, the fundamental particles that we recognize as "matter" are stable patterns of vibration in the energy of a dynamical void. Mass is frequency. So it would be surprising if differing frequencies and patterns of sound and light did not have effects.

K.

Exactly so. That's the idea behind Reconnective Healing too--activation of frequencies (vs. various "energy" healing practices). And research with music and sound frequencies, as you point out, is long established and in common practice. Research on Reconnective Healing is of course much more recent, and ongoing. The first major study was published in Russian, unfortunately for the moment. But the medical community is taking these therapies quite seriously.

From a quick Google search:

Some hospitals practicing Reconnective Healing:
Jackson Memorial Hospital
UCLA
Cedars-Sinai Medical Center
VA Hospitals
University of Minnesota
University of Miami Medical School
University of Arizona

Some hospitals practicing Music Therapy:
Beth Israel Medical Center
MCP Hahnemann University Hospital
VA Hospital
Rochester General Hospital
Massachusetts General Hospital Cancer Center
Institute of Neuropalliative Rehabilitation
Elizabeth Seton Pediatric Center
UAB Hospital
St. Elizabeth’s Medical Center
North Shore University Health System
Lawnwood Regional Medical Center
Hackensack University Medical Center
Clarian Health
University of Iowa Hospitals & Clinics
Montefiore Medical Center
Advocate Lutheran General Hospital
Tallahassee Memorial Healthcare
DCH Regional Medical Center

Do Hospitals use the Placebo Effect?
The question was raised "Why don't we use placebos, if they're so effective?" Obviously, there are ethical questions, especially regarding deceiving paying patients, as well as withholding potentially helpful therapies. Nonetheless, even a quick Google search shows that doctors and hospitals DO use placebos, even outside clinical trials, frequently. In one 2011 survey, 20% of responding doctors admitted using them, and 35% of psychiatrists reported using them.
Placebo Use in Hospitals

I've the benefit of personal experience as well, as patient and observer, and while that's anecdotal, added to others' experiences, I have to pay attention. I'm all for avoiding mystical jumps as conclusions; I'm not for ignoring observable results--especially when those results are measurable, consistent, predictable, demonstrable, and replicable. That SOMETHING is happening is obvious, and denying that for want of a perfect explanation at this point is no more scientific than drawing unsupported conclusions. That's just two irrational extremes on either side of actual science (or logic).

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 2:25:49 PM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It's difficult to understand how anyone could blather on about leveraging the placebo effect following the posting of a study in which divergent outcomes were observed under the same expectation conditions, and another in which the subjects were rats!

Because, as both the Lambeth factual study and the Lancet metadata studies both showed, the "studies" were a joke, and no amount of repeating of them by the gullible and/or not very bright can make them true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
More generally, the fundamental particles that we recognize as "matter" are stable patterns of vibration in the energy of a dynamical void. Mass is frequency. So it would be surprising if differing frequencies and patterns of sound and light did not have effects.

Exactly so.

No, exactly not so. In fact, horseshit. Again.

Research the concepts of materiality, quantum-scale mechanics, and ... well any basic physics text book.

You're linking systems that have no scale equivalence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But the medical community is taking these therapies quite seriously.

*chortle*

I'll wait for The Lancet or NEJOM paper, thanks all the same. Actually, I'll wait til a few years after that, when it has any credence whatsoever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

From a quick Google search:

Some hospitals practicing Reconnective Healing:
Jackson Memorial Hospital
UCLA
Cedars-Sinai Medical Center
VA Hospitals
University of Minnesota
University of Miami Medical School
University of Arizona

Some hospitals practicing Music Therapy:
Beth Israel Medical Center
MCP Hahnemann University Hospital
VA Hospital
Rochester General Hospital
Massachusetts General Hospital Cancer Center
Institute of Neuropalliative Rehabilitation
Elizabeth Seton Pediatric Center
UAB Hospital
St. Elizabeth’s Medical Center
North Shore University Health System
Lawnwood Regional Medical Center
Hackensack University Medical Center
Clarian Health
University of Iowa Hospitals & Clinics
Montefiore Medical Center
Advocate Lutheran General Hospital
Tallahassee Memorial Healthcare
DCH Regional Medical Center

Music therapy is a completely different thing. I would expect you to know that?

BTW, whether or not hospitals utilise a practice sadly has less to do with science than you'd hope it would. Well, than I would hope it would. For example, the NHS still wastes millions every year part-funding the horseshit that is homeopathy, for no other reason than a percentage of ignorant patients clamouring for it.

So lists don't impress, and I'd be willing to bet that those "hospitals" that do use "Reconnective Healing" are instances where solo clinicians have been "sponsored" to do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm all for avoiding mystical jumps as conclusions;

That statement is clearly untrue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I'm not for ignoring observable results--especially when those results are measurable, consistent, predictable, demonstrable, and replicable. That SOMETHING is happening is obvious, and denying that for want of a perfect explanation at this point is no more scientific than drawing unsupported conclusions.

As is that one.

I've wasted enough time drawing attention to the fundamental errors of science and statistics you've blithely quoted. I'm not going to waste another second. I'll end with this; there is science, and there is non-science, and almost everything you've posted thus far in support of your "argument" falls firmly into the latter camp. That's fine; the gullible and stupid get relieved of their cash, which is fine by me. Sadly though, some of them go on to die when they had no need to, which I'm afraid I can't support.

Come back when you've got anything scientifically substantive to add, by all means.

And now I'll leave you and yours to your crowing. I'm done with this one.

PS: I also noted you failed to answer at all, or dodged, almost every point I put to you. It doesn't annoy me, but it does amuse me, and for that you are to be commended. Well done :)

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 2:36:43 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

I also noted you failed to answer

I thought we'd settled that pages ago. You were done wasting time on this back then too.

There's no point discussing this with someone refusing the review the research a priori. That hasn't changed. You go on bitching about poor logic, yet continue to link unlinked things, attach to me positions I've never stated nor implied, quoting Kirata's words under my name and using them to address a different subject than what he or I were discussing in that post...and all over a burr under your saddle about homeopathy, something I've already clarified I have no position whatsoever, as I don't know the first thing about it. Surely you can see why this strikes me as far less than reasonable--or worthwhile.

So you know better than both the medical community and the published studies...on your say so.

Congratulations. How nice for you. Enjoy.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 5:35:18 PM

LafayetteLady

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What I pointed out to you is that ADD has existed for a long time, you just didn't hear about it. In the 60s, it was diagnosed by doctors, treated with Ritalin. What part of that do YOU not understand?

You can go on and on about conspiracy theories and "creating" conditions to fit the "cures" until you are blue in the face. Thing is it isn't possible for you to back up what you claim because it is a bunch of bullshit. Go back to looking for the other shooter on the grassy knoll.

You know eight different parents who folded to an "ultimatum" from administration, but they were totally adequate parents? Doubt it. Chances are they were the type of parents who liked to let their children's "creativity flow" without any structure and those kids acted like the brats they were raised to be at school. Parents' could have defied the administration when they put forth such an "ultimatum" if they had any sense. I did when the administration attempted to do that with me. Guess what? They were bluffing and lost.

Of course, they are probably as ignorant as you, and I pity their children.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 5:52:12 PM

LafayetteLady

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Want to know what is REALLY strange? I typed into Google Search "Hospitals practicing reconnective healing" and I have been through THREE pages of the returned information and NOT ONE of the sites is a credible medical source, NOR is there anything about hospitals that are practicing it.

Know what else? Going directly to those hospitals web sites revealed NOTHING about reconnective healing either. Go figure.

You want to make a point, start posting verifiable links. From where I'm sitting right now, I see nothing but you blowing smoke out of your ass telling everyone "you've seen it firsthand" and therefore it must be true.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 5:52:54 PM

Termyn8or

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"I'm not going to get into this, because it's a waste of my time,......."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sucked you in didn't we ? there's a sucker born every minute ain't there ?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Way to not get into it !

T^T

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 6:08:03 PM

Termyn8or

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"The point is in order to be "healed," the condition that existed prior to diagnosis/treatment must cease to exist."

Thank you. That cuts through the bullshit. You see I decide what is bullshit, and all this higher chemistry and bullshit is just that. the fact is if your body can't maintain, it dies. There should be a better treatment for diabetes. Insulin is only a chemical replacement. This is bullshit. They claim to know fucking everything let them invent an artificial pancreas like Jarvic did with the human heart. Know why they can't ? Because the heart is nothing but a pump. Other organs work on a more molecular level, and that is not quite as easy.

But the quoted statement is true. You know that. I know that. And I am ot odds with people who claim that everything worth knowing is already known, and is available via a link somewhere to papers written by toga partiers. And that treatment must only alleliate the symptom. Paid for their results. Aren't we all ?

We all know who they are, the ones who want to see links to government research to prove that the sun will rise tomorrow.

Yup, if it ain't in NEJM, on google or wiki, or FOX news, it simply doesn't exist. For them.

T^T

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 6:15:06 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

"you've seen it firsthand" and therefore it must be true

Do some reading. I said something is happening, that observable stuff is observable stuff.

And that's all, no conclusions about how or why.

From there, a whole lot of assuming things untrue and never said...from those who want to play "scientist."

I'm still trying to figure out why we're talking about homeopathy. The topic was music, vibration, frequency...that's what got us to healing with frequencies, sonically and with Dr. Pearl's method, both of which have produced interesting results, and both of which are hence undergoing research.

That's what I said. Surely you can see the difference.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 6:18:52 PM

Termyn8or

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"Sound is actually an air pressure phenomenon, not an electro-magnetic one. (sound cannot transmit in a vacuum, which electro-magetic waves can). "

In that exchange I think you both missed the point. The discussion of what EM fields or whatever can do to you is a whole different subject. This would include electricity, magnetism and so forth.

This is more about percieveing these things, as sound is only kinetic energy, nothing more. The effects are purely without actual physical affect on the body, supposedly. It is the perception of the mind that is supposedly the point. It has to be since sound really has no substance. It is nothing but waves in the ocean in a way. It is energy, but only in a certain sense. It's also debatable if sound in the sub or supersonic range has effects. They could. But there are no waves in the EM sense. Unless there is a specific cellular response to vibrations in the air, which is actually not impossible, we are dealing with the mind's control over the body.

T^T

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 10:56:11 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

It could very well be that the plants are not responding to the music per se, but rather to the motion of air produced by the transducer(s)... Drumming is one of the oldest expressions of spirituality, which Mickey Hart discusses in his book Drumming at the Edge of Magic, to which I previously linked.

Well with regard to humans, at least, sound is converted into electrical signals. Maybe you're right about plants, I don't know. I realize they don't have a nervous system like ours. But on the other hand, you can detect electrical potentials in plants.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/26/2011 11:42:22 PM >

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 11:00:38 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

"you've seen it firsthand" and therefore it must be true

Do some reading. I said something is happening, that observable stuff is observable stuff.

And that's all, no conclusions about how or why.

From there, a whole lot of assuming things untrue and never said...from those who want to play "scientist."

I'm still trying to figure out why we're talking about homeopathy. The topic was music, vibration, frequency...that's what got us to healing with frequencies, sonically and with Dr. Pearl's method, both of which have produced interesting results, and both of which are hence undergoing research.

That's what I said. Surely you can see the difference.

That's my point, I'm NOT talking about homeopathy at all. I specifically stated that I googled "hospitals that practice reconnective healing" and found NOTHING. I even went so far as to go to the web sites of the hospitals you claim practice reconnective healing to find the information. Again, NOTHING.

Yet, you are posting lists saying it is true. Where did this information come from? I'm not going to read things posted by anything other than a reputable medical source, which doesn't include anything that starts with "www.reconnectivehealing..." They are not unbiased and therefore, not useful.

There is no point telling me to "read" when you ignore my request to post links to your sources. What I found on my own disproves your claims.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 11:02:10 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"The point is in order to be "healed," the condition that existed prior to diagnosis/treatment must cease to exist."

Thank you. That cuts through the bullshit. You see I decide what is bullshit, and all this higher chemistry and bullshit is just that. the fact is if your body can't maintain, it dies. There should be a better treatment for diabetes. Insulin is only a chemical replacement. This is bullshit. They claim to know fucking everything let them invent an artificial pancreas like Jarvic did with the human heart. Know why they can't ? Because the heart is nothing but a pump. Other organs work on a more molecular level, and that is not quite as easy.

But the quoted statement is true. You know that. I know that. And I am ot odds with people who claim that everything worth knowing is already known, and is available via a link somewhere to papers written by toga partiers. And that treatment must only alleliate the symptom. Paid for their results. Aren't we all ?

We all know who they are, the ones who want to see links to government research to prove that the sun will rise tomorrow.

Yup, if it ain't in NEJM, on google or wiki, or FOX news, it simply doesn't exist. For them.

T^T

And yet, did you notice, NOT ONE person claiming how music scientifically heals has been able to address that statement?

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/26/2011 11:46:10 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm still trying to figure out why we're talking about homeopathy.

RF brought it up. It's his bête noire.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/27/2011 12:18:34 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
More generally, the fundamental particles that we recognize as "matter" are stable patterns of vibration in the energy of a dynamical void. Mass is frequency. So it would be surprising if differing frequencies and patterns of sound and light did not have effects.

Exactly so.

No, exactly not so. In fact, horseshit. Again.

Research the concepts of materiality, quantum-scale mechanics, and ... well any basic physics text book.

You're linking systems that have no scale equivalence.

The statement Tim quoted, rendered in blue above, is exactly correct. As far as hard science goes, that's as hard as it gets. It is a scale-invariant fact of reality. If you want to play at being a stable-boy, I suggest you learn the difference between horseshit and hay.

K.

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/27/2011 6:46:59 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

NOT ONE person claiming how music scientifically heals has been able to address that statement?

Not strictly true. This is old news, as Kirata has noted, even part of junior high science labs.

From there the discussion quickly degenerated into denying something as basic as the Placebo Effect exists, and definitions of "healing" so perfectionist they would exclude most or all of modern medicine. What study is going to meet THAT bar, for ANY therapy or treatment? From there, the "scientists" here, who can't distinguish "inconclusive evidence" from "disproved," would have us rejecting heart surgery--those patients do have subsequent heart attacks, disproving surgery as a "cure." So what? It's clearly helpful...as the studies show.

It's like arguing on P & R...heels were dug in at the start, and "discussion" meant defending ideological points at all costs, irrespective of any actual investigation. Something new came along, and immediately, a host of assumptions about what would be said were read instead of what was actually said.

So prompting well-being may have been a better rhetorical strategy for the OP....given the responses, I doubt it. Nonetheless, new therapies and research about healing with frequencies opens up new possibilities, and is, whether anyone likes it, fascinating, and even if it's ultimately shown to be "horseshit," that still leaves us with healed people to account for--or would it be more scientific to pretend nothing happened?

Nor is "by itself" a useful measure of healing. The heart patient who goes back to smoking and double cheeseburgers isn't going to have good success with heart surgery alone. Aspirin, by itself, is a useless cure. It's very useful, though, in reducing inflammation and fevers, in conjunction with other therapies. When I had knee problems, the symptomatic treatment of anti-inflammatory drugs allowed me the better application of physical therapy, which then allowed repair of the damage.

It's an interesting world, full of new discoveries. Yes, full of pseudo-science too. But the problems aren't the phenomena, but the erroneous conclusions drawn from them--both jumping to assumed methodology, and dismissing data that doesn't conform to pre-established expectations. No credible scientist would do either.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/27/2011 6:49:28 AM >

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/27/2011 6:53:02 AM

Icarys

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jester51

any thoughts ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY86vnswgtw

Not that music. I almost went into a coma listening to it. Some might argue "Hey, that's a really deep sleep your body obviously needed!" I say "I got way to much shit to do to rest that extent."

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/27/2011 5:59:59 PM

playfulotter

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I think music can be uplifting and thus heal in a certain way...both of these following songs have the same name but are totally different but make you feel better both in a different way..they are both entitled, "Love and Happiness"....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsU6_eSG4k4&list=PLA0E688905A5BDCDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7KhB7uJ_TE

< Message edited by playfulotter -- 7/27/2011 6:00:46 PM >

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RE: Can Music Heal ? - 7/27/2011 7:04:23 PM

JstAnotherSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

If you want to play at being a stable-boy, I suggest you learn the difference between horseshit and hay.

K.

That is going on my list of sayings I have learned lately and love.

The last one was "That boy's bout a half a bubble off plumb."

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