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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 9:39:29 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You'll have to refresh my memory here, O59. Exactly which political/religious/cultural organization for adults, are the Boy Scouts the youth wing of?

"Tea Party Summer Camp"

Yup,even glenn beck endorsed and everything.......

"Glenn Beck 'Indoctrinates' Kids With His Upcoming Tea Party Summer Camp"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/8582654/Tea-Party-summer-camps-for-8-year-olds-to-learn-about-defending-economic-liberty.html

And.....

"The Tampa Liberty School is hosting this week-long, half-day camp (July 11-15) for the first time. The program is modeled after vacation bible school and run by parents and volunteers from a Tea Party group called Tampa 912 Project. Campers will learn about our nation's founding principles: personal responsibility, faith, courage, hard work, reverence and thrift.

"We want to impart to our children what our nation is about, and what they may or may not be told," conservative writer Jeff Lukens, who is organizing the camp, told TampaBay.com.

Lukens added that he's unfamiliar with the public school curriculum, but, "I do know they have a lot of political correctness. We are a faithful people, and when you talk about natural law, you have to talk about God. When you take that out of the discussion, you miss the whole thing."

Lukens and his staff will deliver their Christian message through fun, hands-on activities.

Kids will develop an understanding of the gold standard by winning hard candies that can be used at a currency store. Later, they'll receive paper money instead of the candies. "Over time, students will realize their paper money buys less and less, while the candies retain their value," TampaBay.com reports.

Another activity: Kids will sit quietly in an austere room, meant to symbolize Europe, and then they'll pass through a challenging obstacle course to reach a brightly decorated party room where red-white-and-blue confetti will be thrown--the New World! To learn that freedom comes with responsibility, the kids will be asked to clean up the confetti."

Sounds kinda creepy.And lot-so-fun.....

Added:sorry if this has already been posted.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/26/2011 9:43:24 PM >

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Post #: 141

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 9:43:46 PM

TreasureKY

Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....and very funny if MM had actually taught Firm.

Very funny... considering they are pretty much the same age.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

BTW Treasure, as a now only occasional visitor to these boards, your picture is about the only one I still recognise :)

I've considered updating it, but I don't look any different and I like consistency. I hope that's a good thing.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 142

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 9:47:17 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....and very funny if MM had actually taught Firm.

Very funny... considering they are pretty much the same age.

..i was older than virtually all my tutors when i got my degree.

The funniest moment though was when a tutor who didnt like me had to teach from a book in which i was featured.

That was almost worth the school fees right there.... :d

(in reply to TreasureKY)

Post #: 143

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 9:48:16 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

However, much of the American left uses it when it is convenient for them, but condemns it vociferously when it is used on them, even slightly.

Oh my! False equivalence strikes again.

The Nazis were a product of the Right. The Right wing has an exclusive monopoly on fascism and ultra-nationalism. Therefore this is a label only applicable to the ultra-conservative side of politics.

To apply these terms to the left makes as much sense as calling the Tea Party Maoists.

Your assumption is that there is any real operative difference in the effects of a totalitarian state such as a "Fascist" state or a "Communist" state, and that only "from the right" can totalitarian states arise.

This concept pleases you, for it fits your ideological bent, and makes you smug and comfortable in your condemnation of things you do not like and do not understand.

Even the concept of "right" and "left" is pretty broad, and misleading, almost to the point of being meaningless.

Firm

"Assumption"? Excuse me. I didn't make any assumptions. I merely pointed out the historical record. Fascism is a product of the conservative side of politics aka the Right wing. Always has been. Always will be.

The attempts to exculpate Beck from the consequences of his own nasty words are becoming ever more ridiculous and contradictory. For example, you assert:
"Even the concept of "right" and "left" is pretty broad, and misleading, almost to the point of being meaningless." (post # 136)
You used the "meaningless" notion of the left/lefties in the 5 (out of 7) points that comprise your 'argument' in your previous post (#134). By your own reasoning, your argument is therefore 'meaningless'.

Nazism and Fascism are the exclusive property of the conservative side of politics. That is the historical record around in the world. It is the same today - those who venerate Fascism and the Nazis are always found on the ultra-Right. Fascism and Nazism belong to the Right whether you like it or not. Trying to re-write history or to smear your political opponents merely exposes the bankruptcy of your position. No one who genuinely subscribes to leftist ideas or ideals would touch Nazism or Fascism with a barge pole.

Beck's vile attempts to smear the victims of Norway's tragedy has no basis in fact or anything remotely resembling morality, honesty or decency. Beck's words are indefensible, as comment after comment here has stated. Why you feel a need to continually attack and malign people who are horrified by his deranged slanders is a question you really ought to ask yourself.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/26/2011 9:49:49 PM >

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Post #: 144

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 9:51:41 PM

philosophy

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" No one who genuinely subscribes to leftist ideas or ideals would touch Nazism or Fascism with a barge pole."

I agree, but in the interests of fair play, I should point out that the ultra left can create a type of totalinarism which is functionaly very close to Fascism.

The wheel turns full circle.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 145

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 10:05:19 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

" No one who genuinely subscribes to leftist ideas or ideals would touch Nazism or Fascism with a barge pole."

I agree, but in the interests of fair play, I should point out that the ultra left can create a type of totalinarism which is functionaly very close to Fascism.

The wheel turns full circle.

Indeedies. The dangers that arise when rigidly applied ideology of any hue and totally centralised power are aligned are all too obvious. The historical record bears that out.

But that's quite a different thing to trying to re-write the historical record, to defending Beck's gross excesses, or inventing false equivalences between Fascism/Nazism and the broad Left or leftist perspectives.

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Post #: 146

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 10:08:33 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Indeedies. The dangers that arise when rigidly applied ideology of any hue and totally centralised power are aligned are all too obvious. The historical record bears that out.

But that's quite a different thing to trying to re-write the historical record, to defending Beck's gross excesses, or inventing false equivalences between Fascism/Nazism and the broad Left or leftist perspectives.

Agreed. I, too, get exasperated when because the word 'socialism' was used by the Nazis to cover their real intentions some people see that as proof that anyone left of centre is a nazi.

At the extremes things go wrong. Whether thats political extremes, religious extremes, or even cultural extremes. As the old adage has it, moderation in all things.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 147

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 10:44:13 PM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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Yes. It could even be argued that Beck's ideologically-driven attempts to distance himself from the crazed Norwegian terrorist that set up this entire thread.

The themes of cultural degradation, immigration, race, racial purity, Christianity, pro-Zionism and anti-Islamisciation that the terrorist claims inspired his acts are fairly common themes on the Right. I have no desire to imply in any way shape or form that the Norwegian terrorist represented the broad Right. But I suspect that Beck, and some others on the right, are uncomfortable with the commonalities. Smearing the victims shifts the spotlight away from the commonalities.

That Beck should stoop to such depths is nothing new. What is surprising, and revealing, is the reaction of some of the far Right posters here whom it seems, are resorting to just about any argument, no matter how much it reeks of desperation, no matter how transparently contrived or false it is, to try to point the spotlight in another direction. Why do they feel the need to react in this manner? No one is accusing them of complicity or responsibility.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/26/2011 10:47:30 PM >

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Post #: 148

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 11:06:15 PM

CountrySong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: CountrySong
Our society is based on balances of white male power or it used to be when we were a Republic.

As soon as I saw this part of your post, I learned more about you than I ever wanted to know.
Our society, which is still a Republic, is based on balancing the needs and desires of all Americans - male, female, white, black, asian, hispanic, religious, non-religious - not just white males.

You left out my quotes around the "white male" and it is the simple truth. Our society was founded based on white male Christian landowners (I forgot about the land owning and Christian parts) being the only ones who had the ability and "God Given Right" to govern the masses. If you look closely you will not find a single signature of a female, non-Christian, or slave on the Declaration Of Independence or the Constitution.

In fact they where so certain that the rest of the people where so incompetent that they formed the Electoral College to elect the President rather than risk that position of power to a general vote.

Our country is a Republic in name only. As the old saying goes - If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it is a duck. Based on that America is now a Plutocracy. Our so called elected officials are controlled by the wealthy. And we, the general public, are led around by the media forces the wealthy control.

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Post #: 149

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/26/2011 11:40:38 PM

CountrySong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

It is appalling that a person could be so bereft of connection with their fellow humans, so consumed by anger and hatred that they could even conceive of such an attack, much less carry it out. I can only hope that whatever gods there may be will bring comfort to the victims and their families and… a really intense learning experience… to the perpetrator.

It is appalling that anyone could be so consumed with such an “us versus them” mentality that they would insinuate that the victims somehow are to blame or are less worthy of our sympathies because of who they are or what they believe. I think that people like Beck, regardless of which side of the political divide they are on, are not capable of making any kind of human connection to the victims. There is no empathy there. The insinuation may even be unconscious; a result of an automatic kickback of “thought” (actually, emotion) that stems from an inability to fully humanize the other.

It is appalling that the only meaning the lives of the murdered will have for so many of us is to be fodder in political shouting matches/ego stroke offs.

I continue to be an optimist. I continue to hold out hope for the human race. In the meantime, though, the whirligig goes on.

"Us Vs Them" is part of human nature it is a survival trait. It also seem to be part of our core fight against death (see the movie Flight From Death). It is an accepted part of many major religions and historically an accepted part of most governmental policies.
I forgot who said that "voilence is an effective solution to most issues." but it is and always will be.
Murder and genocide are simply tools the powerful use to control other and insure their survival and the survival of their belief systems. Cases in point -

God murdering all who did not conform with a great flood.
Romans murdering anyone who got in their way.
Mohammad murdering entire villages.
The Christians murdering all witches and non-traditional believers (Cathars) in Europe and America
The USA and others murdering the native American.
The Chinese murdered in the "cultural revolution"
South American killing squads most of which are sanctioned and trained by governments including the USA.
Khmer Rouge; French revolution; Bosnia; Rowanda; Nazis... and the list goes on throughout history.

“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it” George Santayana You are not paraniod if someone really is out to kill you and as Americans we all have a price on our heads. Thank god for our military or we would all be toast!

< Message edited by CountrySong -- 7/26/2011 11:41:41 PM >

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Post #: 150

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 12:00:18 AM

CountrySong

Posts: 554
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Firm, people do toss around the Nazi" crap way too much. At Bush at Cheney and on down the line. These were kids butchered on a Summers day as they attended camp.

Have you no decency?

I think that anyone who kills children is a scumbag and deserves the harsh condemnation and punishment.

But the subject of this thread is the mainly American reaction to the comments of a American political commentator. I am responding to that.

Firm

Really??? Then we should we not put our presidents on trial for all the children they have killed as "commanders in chief" of our military? What about the CIA, DEA, and FBI for the deaths of the thousands of children in South and Central America. Personally, I accept it as part of our lifestyle and beliefs - we murder people to get our way and protect our beliefs. Often those people are innocents like children. What do they call it? - Collateral Damage!!!
It is easy to condem one man - Hitler or the guy in Norway but I challenge you to look in the mirror and admit the fact that as US citizens - we are responsible for the murder of many more people than those folks ever were and we will continue the killing.

_____________________________

Cowboy clown and cowboy poet!
Jouster of windmills.
Knight in tarnished armor.
Rescuer of damsels who don't want to be rescued.
Dreamer of Impossible Dreams

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Post #: 151

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 12:07:45 AM

CountrySong

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As for the us of the word "Nazi" it is part of our culture. We are indoctrinated with what Hitler and his elite did. It scares, terrifies, and angers us! The thought that people can be rounded up, starved, beaten, mutilated, experamented on, and murdered is frightening because it make our world less safe and we do not like that! So people use it to get a reaction.
I imagine in some of the Native American tribes like the Lakota Sioux the words "7th Calvery" might stir up simular emotions.

_____________________________

Cowboy clown and cowboy poet!
Jouster of windmills.
Knight in tarnished armor.
Rescuer of damsels who don't want to be rescued.
Dreamer of Impossible Dreams

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Post #: 152

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 12:28:31 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

However, much of the American left uses it when it is convenient for them, but condemns it vociferously when it is used on them, even slightly.

Oh my! False equivalence strikes again.

The Nazis were a product of the Right. The Right wing has an exclusive monopoly on fascism and ultra-nationalism. Therefore this is a label only applicable to the ultra-conservative side of politics.

To apply these terms to the left makes as much sense as calling the Tea Party Maoists.

Your assumption is that there is any real operative difference in the effects of a totalitarian state such as a "Fascist" state or a "Communist" state, and that only "from the right" can totalitarian states arise.

This concept pleases you, for it fits your ideological bent, and makes you smug and comfortable in your condemnation of things you do not like and do not understand.

Even the concept of "right" and "left" is pretty broad, and misleading, almost to the point of being meaningless.

Firm

"Assumption"? Excuse me. I didn't make any assumptions. I merely pointed out the historical record. Fascism is a product of the conservative side of politics aka the Right wing. Always has been. Always will be.

The attempts to exculpate Beck from the consequences of his own nasty words are becoming ever more ridiculous and contradictory. For example, you assert:
"Even the concept of "right" and "left" is pretty broad, and misleading, almost to the point of being meaningless." (post # 136)
You used the "meaningless" notion of the left/lefties in the 5 (out of 7) points that comprise your 'argument' in your previous post (#134). By your own reasoning, your argument is therefore 'meaningless'.

Nazism and Fascism are the exclusive property of the conservative side of politics. That is the historical record around in the world. It is the same today - those who venerate Fascism and the Nazis are always found on the ultra-Right. Fascism and Nazism belong to the Right whether you like it or not. Trying to re-write history or to smear your political opponents merely exposes the bankruptcy of your position. No one who genuinely subscribes to leftist ideas or ideals would touch Nazism or Fascism with a barge pole.

Beck's vile attempts to smear the victims of Norway's tragedy has no basis in fact or anything remotely resembling morality, honesty or decency. Beck's words are indefensible, as comment after comment here has stated. Why you feel a need to continually attack and malign people who are horrified by his deranged slanders is a question you really ought to ask yourself.

Boy that's weak even for you.
Here's some "historical fact" for ya, one of the biggest nazi sympathizers in the USA during ww 2 was recalled as ambassador to the court of st james in England by President Roosevelt because he was getting so many complaints about him and his nazi propaganda from the English, Joseph P. Kennedy... a Democrat.
And we had (and still have remnants of) a group called the Ku Klux Klan in this country who were founded by,.....Southern Democrats after the Civil War.
A few years back one of our Senators in the U.S. Robert Byrd died and he was a "grand kliegel" in the KKK. And,.....he was,.....a Democrat.
To try to say that nazis, facists and communists, ("the exclusive property of the conservative side of politics") are "conservatives" I wouldn't touch with a 100 ft long telephone pole much less a barge pole.
I know a lot of Republicans, Democrats and Independants and I can tell you not a one of them would claim the nazi's, the kkk or the communists as their own.
Killing six million Jews is "conservative?"
Killing 27 million of your own people in Russia is "conservative?"
What about Mussolini, he was a Christian, right?
Did Hitler want "less" taxes or "more" taxes? Of course he wanted(needed) "more" taxes to keep his war machine going not "less" taxes to stimulate business and create jobs.
And I bet you Aussies were awful glad to see the conservative American Army, Navy and Marines come down there in 1942 as Port Moorsby about 500 miles away(?) was being bombed by the Facist Empire of Japan.
And most of those Soldiers, Sailors and Marines probably wearn't singing "peace" songs and had never celebrated "May Day."
Let me get this straight now, say if you had to be under the control of one out of three men. Now remember, they're all "conservative" according to you. Hitler, Stalin or George Bush, which one would you choose?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/27/2011 12:33:53 AM >

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Post #: 153

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 12:52:48 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Tweak, If I were inclined to want to be another "Hitler", "Musolini", or some other despotic murderer and control people I sure as hell wouldn't want "conservatives" anywhere near me!

I'd want people like this who spoke my "lingo", people easily influenced by a leader and easily lead!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHmhEqX7G4

_____________________________

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Post #: 154

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 3:21:38 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Tweak, If I were inclined to want to be another "Hitler", "Musolini", or some other despotic murderer and control people I sure as hell wouldn't want "conservatives" anywhere near me!

I'd want people like this who spoke my "lingo", people easily influenced by a leader and easily lead!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHmhEqX7G4

Really pops been missing our meds again have we? Your posts (#154 and 155) is as deranged as Beck rant. Your hysterical attempts to twist what I wrote are making you sound sillier than usual. Your tone is so defensive that I'm sure many people are thinking: He doth protest too much.

Why can't you just dissociate yourself from Beck's obscene remarks and leave it at that? I would imagine most people would have taken your word for it - I would have.

Instead you offer us a ridiculous tirade attributing things to me that I very clearly never wrote or hinted at, even obliquely. I stated that the Nazis and fascists are only found on the rightwing/conservative side of politics. Fascism and Nazis are an exclusively right wing phenomenon. It's a simple uncontroversial fact, completely supported by the historical record. There's nothing you I or any one else can do about it. The Left has its own series of monsters - Stalin, Pol Pot etc - none of whom can be accurately described as Nazis or fascists, even if many of their atrocities were every bit as bad.

The Hitlers and Mussolinis are no more representative of the broad Right than the Stalins and Pol Pots are of the broad Left. Why does this type of statement cause you so much difficulty? Again I ask: Why do you feel a need to continually attack and distort the message of any one who's horrified by Beck's demented slanders? Why are you trying to turn this into a Left vs Right issue? It's a simple matter of basic decency and humanity. Why do you feel unable to criticise Beck for his shocking statements without reacting in such a hostile defensive manner? What is at stake here for you?

No one is accusing you of anything yet you sound as though you feel you are being held personally accountable for every action by every right wing nut case ever.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/27/2011 3:30:53 AM >

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Post #: 155

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 3:53:05 AM

Sanity

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Because leftist ideologues such as yourself are consumed with FOX NEWS, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh etc

And will go to any length to denigrate them, and every conservatives free speech rights

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The important thing is to circle the wagons around Beck.

Because....er....because.....hmmm.......

No ideologues here. Pure thinkers.

Uh-huh. That's it.

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Post #: 156

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 5:27:23 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Firm, people do toss around the Nazi" crap way too much. At Bush at Cheney and on down the line. These were kids butchered on a Summers day as they attended camp.

Have you no decency?

I think that anyone who kills children is a scumbag and deserves the harsh condemnation and punishment.

But the subject of this thread is the mainly American reaction to the comments of a American political commentator. I am responding to that.

Firm

Is that what this thread was? When I read it, I thought it was a chance to see how many ways people could twist one mans words to mean something else. By next week I am sure people will be telling us how happy Beck was and how he sent the asshole a congrats card when he heard the news.

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Post #: 157

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 5:34:07 AM

Moonhead

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Don't be silly: Beck wouldn't have the balls to do that.

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Post #: 158

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 5:40:12 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Don't be silly: Beck wouldn't have the balls to do that.

You missed the point. He doesn't have to actually do something for people to accuse him of it. He didn't say those kids deserved to die, but that hasn't stopped some of the posters here from saying he did.

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Post #: 159

RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 6:17:01 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

Because leftist ideologues such as yourself are consumed with FOX NEWS, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh etc

Making stuff up again.

I don't post those criticism, because I never see those shows (or any other, for that matter), and only rarely hear five minutes of Rush.

Your world is assumed. Reality escapes you.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 160

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