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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 6:23:34 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery



quote:

This goes a long way toward confirming my impression that those degrees might as well come in boxes of Froot Loops.


I think you nailed that one, Aswad.

You know, MM, I think your a pretty damn smart guy.

But sometimes, you are just a dick.  Is that your kink?

Firm


Firm,

Your equating fascist and communist as an argument for blending left/right by turning to totalitarian states to attempt to refute tweak's accurate historical point was pure crap, and you know it.

Treasure's mocking icon and bringing up your master's degree in response to Aswad was silly too. You and I both know that a degree is no replacement for an argument (and granted, it's not you who did this), and that plenty of degreed people spew plenty of nonsense.

I trust your smear is not actually indicative of your education.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 6:28:11 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Tweak, If I were inclined to want to be another "Hitler", "Musolini", or some other despotic murderer and control people I sure as hell wouldn't want "conservatives" anywhere near me!


I'd want people like this who spoke my "lingo", people easily influenced by a leader and easily lead!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHmhEqX7G4

Really pops been missing our meds again have we? Your posts (#154 and 155) is as deranged as Beck rant. Your hysterical attempts to twist what I wrote are making you sound sillier than usual. Your tone is so defensive that I'm sure many people are thinking: He doth protest too much.

Why can't you just dissociate yourself from Beck's obscene remarks and leave it at that? I would imagine most people would have taken your word for it - I would have.

Instead you offer us a ridiculous tirade attributing things to me that I very clearly never wrote or hinted at, even obliquely. I stated that the Nazis and fascists are only found on the rightwing/conservative side of politics. Fascism and Nazis are an exclusively right wing phenomenon. It's a simple uncontroversial fact, completely supported by the historical record. There's nothing you I or any one else can do about it. The Left has its own series of monsters - Stalin, Pol Pot etc - none of whom can be accurately described as Nazis or fascists, even if many of their atrocities were every bit as bad.

The Hitlers and Mussolinis are no more representative of the broad Right than the Stalins and Pol Pots are of the broad Left. Why does this type of statement cause you so much difficulty? Again I ask: Why do you feel a need to continually attack and distort the message of any one who's horrified by Beck's demented slanders? Why are you trying to turn this into a Left vs Right issue? It's a simple matter of basic decency and humanity. Why do you feel unable to criticise Beck for his shocking statements without reacting in such a hostile defensive manner? What is at stake here for you?

No one is accusing you of anything yet you sound as though you feel you are being held personally accountable for every action by every right wing nut case ever.

Well, at least you finally owned up to your error:

The Hitlers and Mussolinis are no more representative of the broad Right than the Stalins and Pol Pots are of the broad Left.

Everything else you claimed that I said and didn't say was ... something ...in your own mind, based on what your biases wanted to see.  To reiterate, what I said was about totalitarianism:

In truth, Nazism was a totalitarian system, not a whit of difference in the end than the Socialism/Communist system that is tagged to the left.

But, for some reason, being a "Socialist" or a "Communist" is almost chic (and I know why, just not gonna get into that right now).

My point is that lefties such as you generally scream and yell "Nazi" almost every time anyone on the right says or does anything you disagree with, regardless of the fact (as you yourself have now admitted) that "The Hitlers and Mussolinis are no more representative of the broad Right than the Stalins and Pol Pots are of the broad Left".

Everything else you said and tried to claim that I didn't understand were arguments against something that I did not say.

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 6:32:09 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CountrySong


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Firm, people do toss around the Nazi" crap way too much. At Bush at Cheney and on down the line. These were kids butchered on a Summers day as they attended camp.

Have you no decency?

I think that anyone who kills children is a scumbag and deserves the harsh condemnation and punishment.

But the subject of this thread is the mainly American reaction to the comments of a American political commentator.  I am responding to that.


Really??? Then we should we not put our presidents on trial for all the children they have killed as "commanders in chief" of our military? What about the CIA, DEA, and FBI for the deaths of the thousands of children in South and Central America. Personally, I accept it as part of our lifestyle and beliefs - we murder people to get our way and protect our beliefs. Often those people are innocents like children. What do they call it? - Collateral Damage!!!
It is easy to condem one man - Hitler or the guy in Norway but I challenge you to look in the mirror and admit the fact that as US citizens - we are responsible for the murder of many more people than those folks ever were and we will continue the killing.

The murder of children is despicable regardless of who does it.

However, on a scale of "despicable", those who intentionally target and murder children are off the chart.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to CountrySong)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 6:37:40 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
I'd want people like this who spoke my "lingo", people easily influenced by a leader and easily lead!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHmhEqX7G4

Common Cause/Code Pink demo with a large number saying hang Clarence Thomas and one guy saying send back to the fields! How progressive.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 6:50:59 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Your equating fascist and communist as an argument for blending left/right by turning to totalitarian states to attempt to refute tweak's accurate historical point was pure crap, and you know it.

Treasure's mocking icon and bringing up your master's degree in response to Aswad was silly too. You and I both know that a degree is no replacement for an argument (and granted, it's not you who did this), and that plenty of degreed people spew plenty of nonsense.

I trust your smear is not actually indicative of your education.

MM,

I think I addressed part of this already, above. 

My point is that Fascism and Communism as practiced in the real world were both totalitarian states.  The Nazi metaphor is used by the left as short-hand for  totalitarian beliefs. Totalitarianism is not restricted to "right wing" beliefs.  Real world Communism (socialism) is also a totalitarian system.

Since the use of the Nazi metaphor is more common, and generally originated with the left, it has become "the standard" philosophical and political attack mechanism.  Since it has become the "standard" attack mechanism, the "right" has adopted it as well.

Goose ... gander.

This says nothing about the historical basis for either belief.  Those are fields for entire books.

Tweak's attack about the historical basis of Fascism were off-point, and addressing things that I did not say (and intentionally did not address), and therefore  inaccurate in relation to my position.

As for Treasure's mention of one of my degrees ...

It was made to flcouple, in his recommendation that I "get educated" on basic history et al.  The point (I think) was that perhaps his attack and recommendation were misplaced.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 7/27/2011 6:52:18 AM >

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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 6:53:30 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
the concept of "right" and "left" is pretty broad, and misleading, almost to the point of being meaningless.

I agree, while Nazism is predominantly an extremist right-wing ideology it isn't exclusively so. It was designed to be a selective synergy of political systems which included leftist values. It is similar to communism in the sense that it was designed to completely replace all existing political systems so its no surprise they both led to totalitarism consequently.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 7/27/2011 7:00:44 AM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 8:30:19 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Firm Hand
Well, at least you finally owned up to your error:


I’ve “owned up to my error” ?? In your dreams, Firm. I have done no such thing. The errors in this exchange are all yours - an exclusive monopoly that you are more than welcome to.

What I (and many others) have consistently done is point out the historical fact that Fascism and Nazism are exclusively Right wing phenomena. This is a straightforward fully supported historical fact that, for some curious reason, you still insist on disputing.

It really doesn’t matter what either of us say here. The historical record is explicit. The evidence is overwhelming. Fascism and Nazism are right wing phenomena. If you're stupid enough to continue disputing this please feel free.

Sadly for you, no amount of pompous BS is going to make your claim a fact. No amount of patronising claptrap is going to make it a fact. No amount of distorting other’s words, of false claims (eg “you finally owned up to your error”), of false equivalences is going to alter the fact that fascism and Nazism are exclusively right wing phenomena. Nothing will ever elevate your stupid claim to the status of fact because it simply isn’t factual - your claim stands in direct flagrant contradiction of the facts.

Leftists are entitled to describe right wing phenomena that resemble fascism or Nazism as such. The reverse is not true. Nor will it ever be true. Claims that fascism and communism are the same thing will remain as idiotic as claiming Sarah Palin is an intellectual powerhouse.

If you want to believe otherwise, please feel free. It’s a free world and you’re entitled to believe in the Flat Earth Theory if you choose to. But I wouldn’t expect intelligent or educated people to take your claims any more seriously than the Flat Earth Theory if I were you.

The only point of interest to me is to wonder why you choose to present such gibberish and to tie yourself up in such ridiculous knots in public rather than do the obvious, decent thing and dissociate yourself from Beck’s deplorable smearing of the victims of the Norwegian tragedy.






_____________________________



(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 8:33:47 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Please tell me tweak...what the hell is right wing as opposed to left wing and how does right wing equate to conservatives....Christians...Fascism and Nazism in America?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/27/2011 8:34:25 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 8:37:23 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Tweak, If I were inclined to want to be another "Hitler", "Musolini", or some other despotic murderer and control people I sure as hell wouldn't want "conservatives" anywhere near me!


I'd want people ......... who spoke my "lingo", people easily influenced by a leader and easily lead!


You mean like "Dittoheads"?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 9:48:28 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Firm Hand
Well, at least you finally owned up to your error:


I’ve “owned up to my error” ?? In your dreams, Firm. I have done no such thing. The errors in this exchange are all yours - an exclusive monopoly that you are more than welcome to.

What I (and many others) have consistently done is point out the historical fact that Fascism and Nazism are exclusively Right wing phenomena. This is a straightforward fully supported historical fact that, for some curious reason, you still insist on disputing.

It really doesn’t matter what either of us say here. The historical record is explicit. The evidence is overwhelming. Fascism and Nazism are right wing phenomena. If you're stupid enough to continue disputing this please feel free.

Sadly for you, no amount of pompous BS is going to make your claim a fact. No amount of patronising claptrap is going to make it a fact. No amount of distorting other’s words, of false claims (eg “you finally owned up to your error”), of false equivalences is going to alter the fact that fascism and Nazism are exclusively right wing phenomena. Nothing will ever elevate your stupid claim to the status of fact because it simply isn’t factual - your claim stands in direct flagrant contradiction of the facts.

Leftists are entitled to describe right wing phenomena that resemble fascism or Nazism as such. The reverse is not true. Nor will it ever be true. Claims that fascism and communism are the same thing will remain as idiotic as claiming Sarah Palin is an intellectual powerhouse.

If you want to believe otherwise, please feel free. It’s a free world and you’re entitled to believe in the Flat Earth Theory if you choose to. But I wouldn’t expect intelligent or educated people to take your claims any more seriously than the Flat Earth Theory if I were you.

The only point of interest to me is to wonder why you choose to present such gibberish and to tie yourself up in such ridiculous knots in public rather than do the obvious, decent thing and dissociate yourself from Beck’s deplorable smearing of the victims of the Norwegian tragedy.

In order for your words and positions to be respected, you must first learn how to read what someone actually writes, not just make crap up in your mind about what you think they said, and then attack that straw-man.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 9:57:19 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		FR I wish some people would heed their own snarks.

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<) )╯SUCH
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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
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Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 9:58:50 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Was thinking the same thing, Lucy.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 10:01:26 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		To LL and MM,

Ok, show me where I am straw-manning anyone.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 10:10:22 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I didnt say anything about strawmanning dearie, I was focussing on the first part you said "must first learn how to read what someone actually writes, not just make crap up in your mind about what you think they said"

try reading yourself ....just today youve done it twice

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 10:18:27 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

Well, at least you finally owned up to your error


I stopped reading this drivel at his deliberate misrepresentation.

The inanity of this pseudo-debate is dwarfed only by its pointlessness.

You know what she meant, back at the first instance. You've made your red herring about totalitarianism.

The Game's over. It's been over for pages and threads now.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 10:57:38 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Was thinking the same thing, Lucy.


And I'd suggest you take a dose of your own medicine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


Treasure's mocking icon and bringing up your master's degree in response to Aswad was silly too.


Try finding any post in this thread where I addressed Aswad, just what the heck is a "mocking icon"?

Edited to add:

Firm is right... you really have been a dick lately. 


< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 7/27/2011 11:01:34 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 11:01:29 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Dishonest too, I see.

You know what we're talking about.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 11:04:33 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Dishonest too, I see.

You know what we're talking about.


How disappointing to see you resort to the typical liberal bs.  You can't answer me, so you call me a liar. 

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 11:07:25 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		that is no more typical of a liberal than a conservative or anything else.

(this is without reference to the disagreements by and large between you two, but with what you said)

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 11:07:53 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Oh FFS.

Take your pick, dishonest or not very bright. I'll let you choose.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Man you should really take a college history course, and a few political science classes...



You have no idea how stupid that sounds. Firm holds a Masters Degree in International Political Science.

How about you?


(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 180
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