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How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/18/2006 9:26:40 PM

substantialsub

Posts: 5
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline

After being involved with a couple of different dominants something that they said sticks out in my mind that I wanted feedback about. They said that when they first start playing with a new sub they go easier than the sub seems to want when it comes to pain. They hold back on marking a sub because of trust issues, specifically they want to be sure they are not playing with someone that is going to change their mind after a scene and decide that it wasnt consensual after all, but that instead they were the victim of a crime even.

My question is if you ever have those concerns playing with a new sub? Do you vocalize this concern before play or after play? Are you less concerned if you know the sub is experienced as opposed to having little experience? How long of playing with a sub does it take for you to trust that a sub isnt going to change her mind about rough play?

I hope my post made sense *smiles*

Respectfully,
substantial

Post #: 1

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/18/2006 9:56:45 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear substantialsub, Ladies and Gentlemen;

Good question and topic.

I personally have to be just as comfortable as the submissive/slave I am doing a scene with. Trust is earned and not expected, as well as it goes both ways.

As some have gathered by my recent postings, I do have knowledge and experience in many areas however, each slave and or submissive is different. No two are the same. So it is with dominants and their techniques, knowledge and experiences.

It is basicly coming to an agreed harmony, to where we communicate the same language, as my "hard" may not be your hard but "medium" instead. By communication and trusting your ability to judge what level of intensity we're operating on, then one can be relaxed. However, I will add that Male Dominants on female slave/submissive types are more likely to play a bit under the intensity because they are indeed targeted by false allegations; more so than female dominants with male submissives/slaves. However, both male and female dominants are subjected to disgruntled individual's false claims and such.

Experienced slaves/submissive/Switches help me but, again--they haven't been exposed to my particular techniques and styles, I would play a bit reserved. I rather be under power and not over powering.

Giving a supportive scene situation, to which I was invited to come to a BDSM support and educational's 'host' dungeon. The lad who was submissive, as well as a BoD member begged me to do this female masochist. This female claimed she was a heavy player. I wanted to take her word for it however, I brought in my gear and set up. The girl was blindfolded, started and just on warmup alone had her so zoned out as she was flying way beyond where she ever was and ouching to deer and lamb floggers. I had it so the girl was mixing up rabbit fur with sandpaper and vice versa. The dungeon stopped and watched amazed. I hadn't touched the cows, bulls, cat o nines, rubber floggers, rubber barbwire flail or chain flails. No heavy caning was done, just tipping and partial strokes and warm up strokes. Didn't get to the quirts, single tails or other whips I had. In summary, if I would have jumped in onto this lass's claim of a heavy masochist and pain puppy, I could have soured the entire scene by going into a Sadist mode.

I have done scenes with masochists to whom were fairly accurate in their skills, knowledge and experiences. So, these individuals I went ahead onto Florentine flogging, cat o nines, Dual single tail action (Florentine) as well as Florentine caning, using 2 to 4 canes on them. They got their giggles and grins and I got mine.

The most concern I have is; 1)They understand the risks involved. 2) They understand what communication provides to both of us as to come to a common agreement of pain levels; 3) They give consent to what will take place (with witnesses) and 4) Safe words and limits will be respected. 5) There is a get to know you scene first before moving onto more heavier S&M. And, if they are bad--I'll have them listen to Barney's song "Friends."

Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to substantialsub)

Post #: 2

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/18/2006 9:59:56 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

I liken BDSM to dancing in many ways, to move as beautifully as possible together you must know each other intimately. I find different joys in working with someone new than I do in playing with someone experienced but of course I play with them differently and start in different places because I trust an experienced person to tell me what is going on.

In addition, people new to BDSM tend to think of blame when things go wrong whereas experienced people just sit back, talk about what worked and what didn't and try again.

(in reply to substantialsub)

Post #: 3

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 4:06:49 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

Quite apart from play, which carries risk, Doms and Masters are at risk like any other human being; They get lied to, used, dumped, etc. i think we tend to assume that because They are dominant They are somehow immune, when in fact we should honor the risks They take to pursue us.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 5/19/2006 4:07:25 AM >

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 4

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 5:58:44 AM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline

There is no standard as to when trust is established. Some people are very trustful & others are not so quick to trust. One thing for sure is that when trust is broken it is rarely ever regained.

But somehow I gain a sense that this your question is not so much about trust as it is about when you will get your ass whipped. I get a feeling from your words that you are play oriented & your motivation when engaged in a conversation with these 'dominants' is all about play.

Most dominants are not so eager to be the mechanics of an ass whipping.

If you are indeed focused on the play in your initial conversation I would suggest you back it off a bit & let the dominant start that topic. I for one will not permit any 'play talk' until I wish to discuss it... if the other party continues to bring it up, conversation is over.

As to starting off slow, this is a good practice. You don't know how a person's body is going to respond until you handle it. I have had many people tell me that they were "hard bottoms" & then have them yelp very early on. One person's hard might very well be another person's idea of moderate.

_____________________________

MstrssPassion

(in reply to substantialsub)

Post #: 5

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 6:03:02 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Their concerns are unfortunately valid. I go slow with someone new just because you should go slow when you're starting anything.

There's also a difference between "I've been burned in the past and thus will take longer to really get secure with you" and "I lack trust in you."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to substantialsub)

Post #: 6

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 8:58:17 AM

substantialsub

Posts: 5
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

But somehow I gain a sense that this your question is not so much about trust as it is about when you will get your ass whipped. I get a feeling from your words that you are play oriented & your motivation when engaged in a conversation with these 'dominants' is all about play.

Most dominants are not so eager to be the mechanics of an ass whipping.

If you are indeed focused on the play in your initial conversation I would suggest you back it off a bit & let the dominant start that topic. I for one will not permit any 'play talk' until I wish to discuss it... if the other party continues to bring it up, conversation is over.

I am not going to deny I enjoy my ass being whipped, which would be silly on my part, but you do not know me, I rarely post here and mostly read, and I doubt highly you can "sense" what motivated my question.

My question was motivated partially because I felt a huge amount of trust in the first dominant I was involved with and was rather surprised when he expressed some distrust in me. He ended up leaving a significant amount of bruising "against his better judgment" because he did trust me more than any other sub he had just started playing with, but I still felt a little hurt that he stated that he had "held back" from spanking me more. I later could understand that.

For the dom I am presently seeing, it shocked me less when he expressed these thoughts when we first started playing. He is the one that asks repeatedly if I can have take more, and not the other way around. I am plenty satsfied with our play, and realize his attitude is as much about protecting me as it is himself. I am in no hurry to move to extremely rough play, it gives me something to look forward to, and I might not have a high enough pain tolerance for it anyways.

I was reflecting on this experience and I thought it might be a good question to present here. I have been lucky in that the dominants I have been involved with trusted to tell me these thoughts at all, which they could have kept to themselves. I wonder if other submissives have been told this too, maybe I should have put this in the Gen catagory.

Rrespectfully,
Substantialsub

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 7

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 9:08:18 AM

windchymes

Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

I'm grateful when someone has common sense enough to start something slowly and work up to more. I wouldn't have it any other way.

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to substantialsub)

Post #: 8

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 9:31:30 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: substantialsub
My question is if you ever have those concerns playing with a new sub? Do you vocalize this concern before play or after play? Are you less concerned if you know the sub is experienced as opposed to having little experience? How long of playing with a sub does it take for you to trust that a sub isnt going to change her mind about rough play?

Communication is MUST. I have had partners that were very upfront and let me know what their concerns were befor hand and they always gauged the situation and monitored things so they knew when to push and when to back off a bit. Rough play is fun, like I said, talking is important; if you cannot communicate with your parnter then why be with them.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to substantialsub)

Post #: 9

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 9:31:35 AM

Kinkypupper

Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline

Trust is earned.
As far as playing "softer" its prudent and safe. "WE" do not know at what level an individual can take untel we go there in steps. There are many submissives that altho they have a "safeword" refuse stubbornly to use it. A Dom has to learn to read that submissive and that often takes time.
Its those who go "all out" even after long negotiations that you need to be weary of.

_____________________________

Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

(in reply to windchymes)

Post #: 10

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 9:37:37 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

You are right, Candy, but us subs get lied to also.

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 11

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 10:05:28 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: substantialsub

After being involved with a couple of different dominants something that they said sticks out in my mind that I wanted feedback about. They said that when they first start playing with a new sub they go easier than the sub seems to want when it comes to pain. They hold back on marking a sub because of trust issues, specifically they want to be sure they are not playing with someone that is going to change their mind after a scene and decide that it wasnt consensual after all, but that instead they were the victim of a crime even.

My question is if you ever have those concerns playing with a new sub? Do you vocalize this concern before play or after play? Are you less concerned if you know the sub is experienced as opposed to having little experience? How long of playing with a sub does it take for you to trust that a sub isnt going to change her mind about rough play?

I hope my post made sense *smiles*

Respectfully,
substantial

Trust is crucial in most interrelations, but even more so in dominant / submissive ones, for reasons that I feel are obvious from both sides of the "fence". I will not have a girl in my presence until I'm am fairly certain she can be trusted, and the process of ascertaining this starts at the very beginning. It starts with the tone and content of the first conversation, or first e-mail if it is an on-line encounter. The concern of whether a girl cries "nonconsensual" after her first beating can be remedied with taking logical precautionary steps, listening and communicating being great ones, but the greatest of them all is honing your own intuition and wisdom about human nature, to develop a sixth sense, if you will, about the souls that cross your path.

(in reply to substantialsub)

Post #: 12

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 10:41:37 AM

champagnewishes

Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Orange County
Status: offline

I don't think it is so much a matter of trust than it is a matter of building up a comfort zone which can only be had by really knowing someone. No two people are alike and it's safe to say that the water needs to be tested before jumping in...whether you are the One giving or the one receiving.

I always appreciate a Dom starting from ground zero. Although it may seem tedious and i may request it get bumped up a notch, it is all part of the process of learning about a new partner. There is nothing more exciting than that first smack on the ass.

As a side note, i have been around the block for many years and i have a fair assessment of my tolerence. I recently had some play time with a new Dom and thankfully he started out slow. I was not prepared for the responses my body was giving to the simplest of touch. Not what i would have expected but then again, it had been over a year for me...there are always those outside factors that can be influencial yet overlooked if we don't tred slowly.

_____________________________

Nirvana cannot be described, it is only understood truly by a person who has experienced it.

(in reply to substantialsub)

Post #: 13

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 11:17:19 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Thank all of you for this topic and the replies!! As a newbie it is reassuring to know that my feelings are shared. I always prefer the side of caution and its nice to know I am not alone. I am still waiting for the local community college to have BDSM 101, 102, 103.......all the way up to Hardass Bitch, but until then, these forum boards and the individuals I have gotten to know thru here have been wonderful help. I look forward to meeting many of you someday as life, and locations allow.

(in reply to champagnewishes)

Post #: 14

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 1:55:24 PM

vessel111

Posts: 8
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline

It took me two months before I let Master do wax play with me. I had a bad experience with wax play from a previous Dom. We have been together for fours months now :) and I am just now getting to the point were I trust Master enough to do rough play with me. We both wanted to make sure we trusted each other before we went any further not only during "play time" but other areas of our relationship.

(in reply to substantialsub)

Post #: 15

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 2:23:24 PM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper

There are many submissives that altho they have a "safeword" refuse stubbornly to use it.

Ya know, I never thought that about me before, but the last time I played hard, I was playing with a very good friend who has several many whips and knows how to use them. We've played many times, I trust him; I like to please him by 'standing' for him and his singletail. I have never used a safeword with him. Last time we played, a submissive pal of mine was aghast and said I shouldn't be playing so hard I need first aid afterwards. I live alone...and had no way to apply dressings to my back. I bled lightly for a couple days. I don't really think I'm a pain slut, but I really like to endure whatever he wants to give me. <shrugs> I dunno...perhaps I should re-consider.

(in reply to Kinkypupper)

Post #: 16

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 2:58:39 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear Bearlee, Ladies and Gentlemen;

Some submissives/slaves/bottoms do 'tough' it out as they think that is what submission is all about. And, some Dominants have that mindset as well.

However, in my old days -- It was the practice that it is better to have quality of submission and not quantity. It was the quality of the submission, as to take as much discomfort as possible but, not to pass the pain margin that is distracting and the pleasure of submitting disappears. Pain is a tolerance of sensations, so when it goes beyond being in tune with the entire experience it is 'quality.' If it is an internal contest of how much pain you can take, it no longer is submission of quality but of quantity.

Dominants are looking for the reaction to the application of the variety of tools. Some are so scared, they freeze and instead of checking in, keep on ramping up the painful administrations. Safe words weren't used as the slave froze. It really is a dance with pain, as pain is the theme but the Dominant and submissives are the dancers.

I would be most disappointed if a submissive/slave just 'endured' what I administered. My hope/desire/goal is to see the submissive/slave enjoy the sensations and the body use pain as to use it to a pleasure/pain as to enjoy endorphins and the body made chemical responses, as to promote subspace, flying, a state of bliss and or catharsis.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 17

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 3:10:07 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear bandit25, Ladies and Gentlemen;

You wrote, that submissives are lied to also. I agree. Unfortunately, everybody will be lied to through the course of their lives in the lifestyle.

Nobody is immuned to individuals who lie. Sad isn't it--

It is why, everybody has to go case-by-case with others.

Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 18

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 3:21:57 PM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dear Bearlee, Ladies and Gentlemen;

Some submissives/slaves/bottoms do 'tough' it out as they think that is what submission is all about. And, some Dominants have that mindset as well.

However, in my old days -- It was the practice that it is better to have quality of submission and not quantity. It was the quality of the submission, as to take as much discomfort as possible but, not to pass the pain margin that is distracting and the pleasure of submitting disappears. Pain is a tolerance of sensations, so when it goes beyond being in tune with the entire experience it is 'quality.' If it is an internal contest of how much pain you can take, it no longer is submission of quality but of quantity.

Dominants are looking for the reaction to the application of the variety of tools. Some are so scared, they freeze and instead of checking in, keep on ramping up the painful administrations. Safe words weren't used as the slave froze. It really is a dance with pain, as pain is the theme but the Dominant and submissives are the dancers.

I would be most disappointed if a submissive/slave just 'endured' what I administered. My hope/desire/goal is to see the submissive/slave enjoy the sensations and the body use pain as to use it to a pleasure/pain as to enjoy endorphins and the body made chemical responses, as to promote subspace, flying, a state of bliss and or catharsis.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

I will respectfully remind one that synonyms for endure include; bear, tolerate, suffer… Perhaps I am a bit of a masochist, but I absolutely LOVE sadists. I LIKE that my friend leaves long, bloody welts on me. I can feel them for many, many days afterwards. I LIKE that he sprays me with alcohol and runs the tips of his fingers down what he calls ‘a really nice one’ while I wince and squirm.

I looked up ‘endure’ and found:

1 : to undergo (as a hardship) especially without giving in : SUFFER
2 : to regard with acceptance or tolerance

I would contend that for me, and yes…for some Dominants as well, the ability to endure a good beating IS an example of quality submission. There are some who enjoy both giving and receiving pain. I received no permanent damage or scars, I completely enjoyed the endorphins and subspace that followed. And I beamed when he held me afterwards and told me what a good job I’d done. I like that I can suffer for him… I just wish I was limber enough to put a bandage on my shoulder-blade! LOL

And yes, it took a long time for us to trust one another enough to enjoy this together...

< Message edited by Bearlee -- 5/19/2006 3:25:44 PM >

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 19

RE: How Long Until Doms Trust Subs - 5/19/2006 3:24:28 PM

ShivaTS

Posts: 132
Joined: 2/4/2006
Status: offline

I dont know how long it took my Master to trust me, or even if he does yet. He really didnt hold back with me. The first day was light, but on the second, he wanted to test me out and the harder he took it to me, the harder I laughed and giggled. After a week he told me his fantasies that he has wanted to to to his slave. We've tried a few. On a personal note, he was hurt and his wife and I took him to the hospital, but he ordered me to stay in the waiting room and refused to tell me what was wrong with him or help him in his recovery process. I dont care how much he trusts me in the bdsm lifestyle if he doesnt trust me enough to take care of him when he is hurt.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 20

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