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RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 9:21:03 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

To label myself, I am socially a liberal and financially a conservative. 


Social and fiscal policies are not mutually exclusive. The crux of the biscuit is when they cross are you liberal or conservative.

"Work immediately to modify SS and Medicare so they still exist for future generations"....youre moderate/conservative
'"Dont fucking touch Social Security and Medicare"....youre liberal.

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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 9:23:04 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

OH for the lib fools out there, I spoke with a woman from HUD the other day.  In addition to Section 8 housing, free schooling, food stamps, utility vouchers, bus pass, etc. I was advised that for some of their clients, house keeping is provided on your tax dollar. :)  And more.  A lot of these people get to use legal aid to fight an eviction.  All paid for by you.  So, Musical, do you think that people collecting social services, who are not physically or mentally disabled, should have to work at least 4 hours per day to receive them?


Yep, they get lawyers in free legal aide to prevent scum landlords from illegally evicting them when said landlords know tenants cannot afford to pay to fight the "process".

As far as house keeping... unless you can back that up with proof, Im calling bullshit. Those who get housekeeping assistance are those who are unable to perform those duties, specifically the handicapped or the elderly.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 9:24:05 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

'"Dont fucking touch Social Security and Medicare"....youre liberal.


The tea party is definitely conservative. Yet that is their battle cry.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 9:28:23 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

'"Dont fucking touch Social Security and Medicare"....youre liberal.


The tea party is definitely conservative. Yet that is their battle cry.


1. There are many tea party groups
2. "Definitely conservative" depends on the issue and the group
3. There are tea party groups that call for complete shut down of SS. Positions are all over the place
4. That is defnitely not the battle cry of the Tea Party caucus.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 9:28:42 AM   
MusicalBoredom


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Locked, whatever a person believes regarding gun control, abortion, etc. is fine by me.  I have my personal beliefs on those issues but I think that are just that -- personal beliefs.  I  also believe in God.  I can't prove it I just believe it.  If someone else beliefs in something else I can't prove or disprove that so I think debating personal beliefs is a bit of a waste of time.  I'm fine with people expressing their beliefs.  Sometimes I even see something I hadn't thought of before but at it's core those things don't have a right or a wrong side.

In regards to the other things, I'd be glad to discuss what I think, why I think it, and what questions I still have in regards to those issues.  I mean if those are real questions and they lead to a discussion then I'm always open talking.  I'm not really interested in anything that is more or less two people yelling the same old thing over and over at each other without both parties stopping to actually listen to what the other is saying and being open to having a different perspective.

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 9:30:24 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

somebody has to cite their sources for their views for once.

Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (thats what repealed Glass-Steagall (a democratic law)) a bill by republicans; yanno, saying that beneficent corporations of bankers and wall streeters would not rape and pillage american society, which they steadfastly went out and accomplished post haste.

Senate 90–8 (one not voting) and in the House: 362–57 (15 not voting).  Thats what passed that bill and both houses republican majority. 

Geez, I wonder if Clinton would have vetoed it if they could trim down the vote to 2/3rds to pass it over his veto?

What cha think?

And later when folks wanted to put Glass-Steagall back in, republicans overwhelmingly decried that socialism, John McCain leading the way.

And when Obama tried to get at least certain provisions of it reinstated on january 2010, guess who was the party of no?




He should have vetoed it...right?  That is leadership.  Instead, it was signed into law by our favorite babysitter, WJC.



Yes, just as nixon should have vetoed the off booking of the usps instead of running it thru congress, just as he should have vetoed HMO legislation designed to enrich is good buddy instead of running it thru congress, just as W should have vetoed Iraq and Afghanistan, ....

any idea who said this?

To open up the doors of homeownership there are some barriers, and I want to talk about four that need to be overcome. First, down payments. A lot of folks can’t make a down payment. They may be qualified. They may desire to buy a home, but they don’t have the money to make a down payment. I think if you were to talk to a lot of families that are desirous to have a home, they would tell you that the down payment is the hurdle that they can’t cross. And one way to address that is to have the federal government participate.
And so we’ve called upon Congress to set up what’s called the American Dream Down Payment Fund, which will provide financial grants to local governments to help first-time home buyers who qualify to make the down payment on their home. If a down payment is a problem, there’s a way we can address that. And when Congress funds the program, this should help 200,000 new families over the next five years become first-time home buyers.
Secondly, affordable housing is a problem in many neighborhoods, particularly inner-city neighborhoods. You may – we may have qualified home buyers, but if there’s no home to buy, this initiative isn’t going anywhere. And so one of the things that we’re going to – that I’m doing is proposing a single-family affordable housing credit to encourage the construction of single-family homes in neighborhoods where affordable housing is scarce. (Applause.)
Over the next five years the initiative will provide home builders and therefore home buyers with – home builders with $2 billion in tax credits to bring affordable homes and therefore provide an additional supply for home buyers. It’s really important for us to understand that we can provide incentive for people to build homes where there’s a lack of affordable housing.
And we’ve got to set priorities. And one of the key priorities is going to be inner-city America. Good schools and affordable housing will help revitalize our inner cities.
Another obstacle to minority homeownership is the lack of information. You know, getting into your own home can be complicated. It can be a difficult process. I had that very same problem. (Laughter and applause.)


For example, in his 2004 nomination acceptance speech, Bush said:

Another priority for a new term is to build an ownership society, because ownership brings security and dignity and independence.
Thanks to our policies, home ownership in America is at an all- time high.
Tonight we set a new goal: 7 million more affordable homes in the next 10 years, so more American families will be able to open the door and say, "Welcome to my home."

That wasn't just verbiage, it was policy. Indeed, after the catastrophic job losses of his first term, expanding home ownership was the one bright spot Team Rove could point to in an otherwise dismal picture. Expanding home ownership by any means necessary was Bush administration policy until roughly Spring of 2008.


A White House Fact Sheet titled America's Ownership Society: Expanding Opportunities amplifies the point that risky mortgages were the implicit foundation of the administration's approach. It starts with a Bush quote:

"...if you own something, you have a vital stake in the future of our country. The more ownership there is in America, the more vitality there is in America, and the more people have a vital stake in the future of this country."
-President George W. Bush, June 17, 2004

The nauseating bromides come accompanied by actual policy meat.

Expanding Homeownership. The President believes that homeownership is the cornerstone of America's vibrant communities and benefits individual families by building stability and long-term financial security. In June 2002, President Bush issued America's Homeownership Challenge to the real estate and mortgage finance industries to encourage them to join the effort to close the gap that exists between the homeownership rates of minorities and non-minorities. The President also announced the goal of increasing the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million families before the end of the decade. Under his leadership, the overall U.S. homeownership rate in the second quarter of 2004 was at an all time high of 69.2 percent. Minority homeownership set a new record of 51 percent in the second quarter, up 0.2 percentage point from the first quarter and up 2.1 percentage points from a year ago. President Bush's initiative to dismantle the barriers to homeownership includes:
- American Dream Downpayment Initiative, which provides down payment assistance to approximately 40,000 low-income families;
- Affordable Housing. The President has proposed the Single-Family Affordable Housing Tax Credit, which would increase the supply of affordable homes
- Helping Families Help Themselves. The President has proposed increasing support for the Self-Help Homeownership Opportunities Program; and
- Simplifying Homebuying and Increasing Education. The President and HUD want to empower homebuyers by simplifying the home buying process so consumers can better understand and benefit from cost savings. The President also wants to expand financial education efforts so that families can understand what they need to do to become homeowners.

The National Homeownership Challenge referenced above might as well be a how-to manual for the mortgage crisis we're seeing right now, and also neatly derails the emerging talking point that the crisis stems from irresponsible minority buyers who just didn't know what they were doing (Emphasis in the original).

- Establish a national goal of at least 5.5 million new minority homeowners before the end of the decade.
- Challenge the private sector real estate and mortgage finance industries to dramatically increase their efforts to reduce the barriers to homeownership faced by minority families and to work with the nonprofit sector in a concerted effort to achieve this goal through national and local partnerships.
- Convene a White House Conference on Increasing Minority Homeownership, to highlight the homeownership barriers faced by minorities and develop proposed solutions.

There was in fact such a White House conference on October 15th, 2002.
A 2004 press release from the City of Wichita, celebrating National Homeownership Week - subsequently expanded in 2006 to National Homeownership Month, celebrated most recently in June 2008 - explicitly lauds Bush administration policy and shows how White House policy trickled down to the most local levels of government.

Some statistics from President George W. Bush’s agenda to expand homeownership opportunities include:* U.S. homeownership rate was at a record high of 68.6% in the fourth quarter of 2003, the highest ever.

+ Census estimates an increase of 1.53 million minority homeowners, which means for the first time a majority of the minority households own a home with 50.6%.* Increased housing prices and new home construction have added nearly $4 trillion to homeowner wealth since the start of 2001.

In the 2004 campaign, Bush used the expanding rate of homeownership to club John Kerry in swing states.

ALBUQUERQUE, New Mexico (CNN) -- President Bush traveled Friday to New Mexico, the state that was decided by the closest margin in 2000, where he hailed a "growing" U.S. economy and record home ownership.
The president's speech laid out his positive view of the economy just minutes before Democratic presidential contender Sen. John Kerry, in Michigan, unveiled part of his economic plan, saying America "cannot afford" four more years of job losses under Bush.
"Thanks to being the most productive workforce in America, and I might say, thanks to good policies, this economy is strong and it's getting stronger," Bush told supporters.
Noting that 68 percent of Americans own their own homes, Bush said, "Home sales were the highest ever recently. That's exciting news for the country."

Now, anything that happened in 2004, in terms of the traditional media's gnat-like attention span, might as well have happened before the Norman Conquest. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened, that the Bush administration encouraged the rapid expansion of homeownership for political and ideological reasons, and that they did so with the same sure command of policy and deep understanding of policy consequences that brought us victory in Iraq.
So it's up to us to spread the word. The mortgage crisis is not the fault of a few bad apples. It's the outcome of policy decisions made by the White House. People need to remember that, because the republicans and their toadies in the media sure as hell ain't gonna tell them. 
Uh remember any of this and wasn't he NOT CLINTON?

Shoulda vetoed his ass with a electric chair.

But uh, Clinton should veto shit that wont get him anywhere, pretty much like republicans  who write unconstitutional legislation or introduce bills and vote and vote and vote and fuck around that wont stand any chance of making it out of the house, because they are fucking retarded, but 'need' to make a statement.

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 10:50:17 AM   
Anarrus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway


Sanity is right and you are wrong as usual.  And...Anarrus, you are incorrect also.  Neither sloth nor greed are good things, in fact, aren't they both included in the list of 7 deadly sins?  But I would rather have greed tempered with honesty than sloth tempered with honesty, wouldn't you?  Like it or not, ambition is usually present where there is greed.  So greed tempered by honesty gives you an ambitious person that will likely live independently of the government and be a contributing part of society.

Lucy's post is stupid for too many reasons to list.  It is written from the standpoint of someone who works for someone else and feels that they are OWED something.  She bitches about CEO's who make a lot of money and aren't hiring anyone or who scaled back their work force.  You know...that is called trimming fat.  And if a CEO can keep profits high and yet run a leaner outfit, people in MORE educated, MORE prosperous, MORE business savvy and MORE successful circles than Lucy has ever run in will call that CEO brilliant.

Anarrus....no one owes you ANYTHING.  Do you agree?  No one owes you a job or a house or a color TV or even lunch for that matter.  Isn't that true?  I listen to the libs on this board and it makes me think of Janis Joplin's entreaty for God to buy her a Mercedes Benz.


Explain to me what I'm incorrect about and back it up with something other than simply your opinion.

Try asking me a question that's not loaded and not rhetorical and I may consider answering.

Just for the record dude, so you know where I'm coming from, even though it's none of your business. I know you assume I'm a lazy welfare collecting dirtbag, with my hand always out (close to your words). But to set the record straight I've worked since I was twelve...papers routes, setting pins in a bowling alley, selling the occassional bag o'weed to a few friends etc., doing whatever I could to earn money. I put myself thru 2 years of college with my own cash (back then there were no govn't loans to rely on as Nixon had cancelled the govn't loan programs at that time) then another 2 years of night school while married and raising a family and putting 50+ hours a week at work.. I've worked the past 35 years for the same company, starting out in their printing dept doing gofor work, learning the business from the ground up. I now manage their graphic and art dept with a staff of 4 under me. Also during this time I've put my son through 4 years of forestry school in NYS and all on my dime..no loans or hand-outs.

I, just like you, believe in rugged individualism and personal responsibility and stepping up to plate when the chips are down. Though unlike you I realize hardwork and personal responsibilty don't often cut it for many and I realize that just because someone works hard or is responsible there are a whole lot of other factors out of their realm of personal control involved in how easy or hard their lot in life is. Shit happens, the best laid plans fall apart, often it's roll the dice and hope for the best. Often a safety net is needed and unlike you I'm proud that some of my tax dollars go toward that safety net. I consider it giving back a little of my good fortune. My father worked damn hard all his life and died practically penniless but he was rich man in ways you'll never ever begin to comprehend. So keep on smokin your $25 cigars and driving your Mercedes and patting yourself on the back telling yourself what a fuckin great guy you are as you hate others for not being as you are.

I'm proud to be a liberal and proud as hell to wear that label you give me. It's not a dirty word to me, there's no shame at all in it. I wouldn't want to be you... not for all the riches in the world.



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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 12:51:18 PM   
Lucylastic


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Most excellent post Anarrus
and I have to echo your last line
I'm proud to be a liberal and proud as hell to wear that label you give me. It's not a dirty word to me, there's no shame at all in it. I wouldn't want to be you... not for all the riches in the world.
times a kajillion


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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 1:07:10 PM   
MusicalBoredom


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I'm proud to be liberal as well Anarrus for much of the same reasons.  I think this is too great a country with too many resources to let people fall through the cracks.  Do I think we can fix some things? yes of course.  Am I resentful at people that have more than me? No of course not.  Do I think that people should be able to reap the rewards of their hard work? Of course I do.  Do I think that we as a nation should help those in need? Of course I do.  I do not think that any of these things are mutually exclusive or polar extremes to a single problem.  I do not think that we either have free enterprise or help those in need -- I think that we can use free enterprise to build a solid base for helping those about us. 

Perhaps in another thread, someone can create a new topic for some of those things.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 1:23:34 PM   
Moonhead


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Somebody could, but given the attitudes displayed by a couple of the "welfare? Nein danke" posters in this thread do you think it'd get any response other than a load of self righteous bullshit from people who've read too much Ayn Rand delivered in a tone just shy of hysteria?

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 1:53:02 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

I'm proud to be liberal as well Anarrus for much of the same reasons.  I think this is too great a country with too many resources to let people fall through the cracks.  Do I think we can fix some things? yes of course.  Am I resentful at people that have more than me? No of course not.  Do I think that people should be able to reap the rewards of their hard work? Of course I do.  Do I think that we as a nation should help those in need? Of course I do.  I do not think that any of these things are mutually exclusive or polar extremes to a single problem.  I do not think that we either have free enterprise or help those in need -- I think that we can use free enterprise to build a solid base for helping those about us. 

Perhaps in another thread, someone can create a new topic for some of those things.




What I find amusing is that those who decry social programs that benefit the poor tend to neglect to remember, conveniently, that those who serve the rich are those who benefit from those programs.

Who is gonna pump their gas? Carry their golf clubs? Clean their homes? When those poor they hire/tip out/scorn are too sick to do those duties?

I had a patient once who was in the hospital for a heart attack. He was on the phone bitching at his wife to hire the "damn plumber" and that he didnt care if it cost "$50 an hour"... just to get it done because he wanted to use the hot tub when he got out.

Then he proceeded to tell the nurses we were overpaid bed pan attendants. I quietly closed the door then made my comment...

I am here to fix the plumbing in your heart. You have the audacity to complain about the 20 an hour I am paid while you yell at someone on the hphoe that you dont give a damn what they charge by the hour to fix your hot tub?

Then I walked out of his room.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 2:11:14 PM   
lockedaway


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quote:

What I find amusing is that those who decry social programs that benefit the poor tend to neglect to remember, conveniently, that those who serve the rich are those who benefit from those programs.

Who is gonna pump their gas? Carry their golf clubs? Clean their homes? When those poor they hire/tip out/scorn are too sick to do those duties?


Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft!!!!  I decry social programs because I have been in VERY close proximity to those that avail themselves of them.  I have made my determinations based on PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE.  "The guy that pumped gas" in my experience did not pump gas, he worked for a tree service and made about $10.00 per hour doing very dangerous work.  He paid his rent on time although there were a number of months when he paid a chunk on the first and the remainder on the 15th.  Sometimes we had to break it down to 3 installments.  A decent guy and some would call him the "working poor".  He left the apartment in decent condition.

Then there were the Section 8 people.  Some had menial jobs, some didn't work at all.  Some were "baby-mommas" with multiple children from multiple fathers.  All of the Section 8'ers were women.  What came to the buildings at night to visit them was the FUCKING SCUM OF THE EARTH.  There was violence, drug dealing and police involvement with every Section 8 person I rented to (or bought the house and they were already a tenant) except two.  My average with the Section 8 people is about 9 bad to 1 good. 

In addition to the experience I have with that class of people as a landlord comes the education I received being an attorney.  You want to sing their fucking praises, baby?  Go right ahead.  From my experience, however, people tend to "self medicate" and the healthy people receiving entitlements seem to self medicate more than most and certainly a disproportionate amount of their money goes to self medicating than what they earn.

We should either end HUD housing or make people work for it....doing something.  Housing these animals for the sake of housing animals is unfair to everyone............ including them in fact.

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 2:21:28 PM   
lockedaway


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

I'm proud to be liberal as well Anarrus for much of the same reasons.  I think this is too great a country with too many resources to let people fall through the cracks.  Do I think we can fix some things? yes of course.  Am I resentful at people that have more than me? No of course not.  Do I think that people should be able to reap the rewards of their hard work? Of course I do.  Do I think that we as a nation should help those in need? Of course I do.  I do not think that any of these things are mutually exclusive or polar extremes to a single problem.  I do not think that we either have free enterprise or help those in need -- I think that we can use free enterprise to build a solid base for helping those about us. 

Perhaps in another thread, someone can create a new topic for some of those things.



A very great post!!!  Excellent in fact.  Here is where you are a bit mistaken.  See what I have blocked in bold print in your post.  What you are overlooking is the population that CHOOSES not to participate.  How do you deal with them?  They are healthy, IQ's within the bell curve, but they are lazy or anti-social or they have willfully "tuned out"....whatever.  What do you do with them?  How much should we all pay for them?  At what point are they deriving such a benefit OR we are deriving such a detriment that we all shouldn't be like them because....what the fuck is the point?  Ok....what about the people that are so over indulgent that they make mistakes that screw us all over?  How much money do you give to the baby-momma?  What happens if she does it again and again?  What do you do to the guy that never wears a condom or pulls out?

Do you think I am talking about small numbers?  I'm not.  If I was, it would be a rarity to run into one of these people.  But everyday the are in the courts....in droves.

There is a guy with a below average IQ.  He has no criminal background.  He has no dependents.  He is drug free.  He needs help because a minimum wage job is all he will ever be able to have.  Minimum wage jobs are ENTRY jobs and they were never contemplated to be the position that a person holds for life.  But with this guy....that is the only option he has.  Do we help him?  Sure.  And I'm sure you agree, right? 

That is the easy case and they are few and far between.  It gets murkier and murkier from there.

Know this; people like Julia, Lucy, Tazzy, MM, Fargle, SlaveMike and a number of others have NO PROBLEM with you being taxed to the very limit of your income so that you live no better than they do despite your ambition, drive, determination, imagination and ingenuity.  They want the government to be the great equalizer.  Fine...but in my view, that makes the government the great oppressor.

< Message edited by lockedaway -- 8/4/2011 2:58:59 PM >

(in reply to MusicalBoredom)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 2:30:52 PM   
lockedaway


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quote:

hough unlike you I realize hardwork and personal responsibilty don't often cut it for many and I realize that just because someone works hard or is responsible there are a whole lot of other factors out of their realm of personal control involved in how easy or hard their lot in life is. Shit happens, the best laid plans fall apart, often it's roll the dice and hope for the best. Often a safety net is needed and unlike you I'm proud that some of my tax dollars go toward that safety net. I consider it giving back a little of my good fortune. My father worked damn hard all his life and died practically penniless but he was rich man in ways you'll never ever begin to comprehend. So keep on smokin your $25 cigars and driving your Mercedes and patting yourself on the back telling yourself what a fuckin great guy you are as you hate others for not being as you are.


You fool.  You don't know me.  How many people have you taken off of the street and let them use your shower and fed them?  How many people did you actually let live in your house or in your basement????  FUCK YOU  I am more charitable than you will ever be.  Every car went to someplace like Kars for Kids.  Every stitch of clothing went to Good Will.  How many kids did you pay monthly for with organizations like the Christian Childrens Fund?  Two for me...how many for you?  How much work have you done for free???  I handle pro bono cases every year and have for the past 18 years. 

No...I don't believe in subsidizing failure and bad behavior.  If you had said THAT, you would have been accurate.  Everything else I have written about has been regarding making people that are healthy work for the welfare (not disability, not unemployment) that they receive. 

I have said this quite a bit and I will say it here as well.  Charity is only philanthropic when it is voluntarily given.  When it is ripped from your fist through a confiscatory scheme of taxation, it is tyranny.

Oh...and here's a postscript for you; I DO smoke $25.00 cigars and drive a Mercedes Benz because I EARNED IT.  So go piss into a fan if you don't like it.

Oooopsss...double postscript.  You are wrong....liberal IS a bad word.  It describes a political belief based on collectivism where it is entirely appropriate to steal from a certain class to pay for an underclass.  It is the political theory of swine, oppressors and failures.  I would never want to be some low life piece of shit whining for a handout or a check because of my irresponsible procreating, my addictions, my lack of ambition, my failures in my life that caused, in the immortal words of Pink Floyd,  "And then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun."  That is your political theory....and it is disgusting.


< Message edited by lockedaway -- 8/4/2011 2:38:45 PM >

(in reply to Anarrus)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 2:43:51 PM   
mnottertail


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Do you think I am talking about small numbers?  I'm not.  If I was, it would be a rarity to one into these people.  But everyday the are in the courts....in droves.

What would François-Anatole Thibault say about that?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 2:46:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
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Kind of a loose musical tie in there, but since its PF youre forgiven.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 2:51:13 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
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You are funny in a ******** (guess!) way.  He is an article from a very liberal writer concerning Bill Clinton's role in the repeal of Glass Steagall and the mortgage meltdown.  I love how you refuse to lay blame at the foot of your liberal icon.  It is actually, very fucking funny.

Many Democrats wish Bill Clinton still occupied the White House. However, before you put him in Mt. Rushmore, you might want to investigate his role in the mortgage foreclosure crisis.

The chief aim of what I have termed the Republican Counterrevolution has always been to roll back the New Deal. Anti-gov'ment rhetoric hides this as surely as states' rights hid racist segregation. Of all the New Deal legislation the GOP has sought to overturn, one that has always been at or near the top of the list is the Glass-Steagall Act. Ironically, a Democratic president repealed this for them.

Glass-Steagall

An unreconstructed Southerner from Virginia, Carter Glass shepherded the creation of the Federal Reserve System through Congress, which has caused some to call him the "founding father of the Federal Reserve System." Later Glass would serve as Wilson's Treasury Secretary, recommending aid to Europe after World War I. Just before leaving Treasury to become senator, Glass warned about banks getting involved in stocks.

In his economic history of the Great Depression, John Kenneth Galbraith pointed out one of the causes was:
The large-scale corporate thimblerigging that was going on. This took a variety of forms, of which by far the most common was the organization of corporations to hold stock in yet other corporations, which in turn held stock in yet other corporations.
Galbraith would note:
During 1929 one investment house, Goldman, Sachs & Company, organized and sold nearly a billion dollars’ worth of securities in three interconnected investment trusts—Goldman Sachs Trading Corporation; Shenandoah Corporation; and Blue Ridge Corporation. All eventually depreciated virtually to nothing.
It is hard to imagine today what it felt like to walk through the door of a bank in those days and learn that the dollars you had earned had vanished. Every day spent working and saving had been for nothing. A great many farmers, brick layers, carpenters, factory workers believed the bankers had stolen their lives.

When Franklin Roosevelt took office, both the President and Congress knew the banking crisis demanded immediate action. The result was one of the crown jewels of the New Deal: the Glass-Steagall Act, officially known as the Banking Act of 1933. Glass made sure the bill forbid banks from getting into the investment business. In addition, the bill established the Federal Deposit Insurance Company, which protects our bank deposits.

In 1971, in Investment Company Institute v. Camp, no less than the United States Supreme Court would write what stands as the most cogent summary of the reasons for Glass-Steagall:
Congress was concerned that commercial banks in general and member banks of the Federal Reserve System in particular had both aggravated and been damaged by stock market decline partly because of their direct and indirect involvement in the trading and ownership of speculative securities.

The legislative history of the Glass-Steagall Act shows that Congress also had in mind and repeatedly focused on the more subtle hazards that arise when a commercial bank goes beyond the business of acting as fiduciary or managing agent and enters the investment banking business either directly or by establishing an affiliate to hold and sell particular investments.
Many arguments the Supreme Court advanced in support of Glass-Steagall, would prove prophetic three decades later.

Bill Clinton and the Wall of Me

Billionaire Sanford I. Weill, who according to Louis Uchitelle made "Citigroup into the most powerful financial institution since the House of Morgan a century ago," has what I call the Wall of Me leading to his office, which he has decorated with tributes to him, including a dozen framed magazine covers. A major trophy is the pen Bill Clinton used to sign the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, a move which allowed Weill to create Citigroup. Fittingly, Citigroup is a major contributor to guess which current Democratic Presidential candidate?

A Frontline report on the repeal of Glass-Steagall shows how those with money end up with pens from the President of the United States on their walls.

Sandy Weill calls President Clinton in the evening to try to break the deadlock after Senator Phil Gramm, chairman of the Banking Committee, warned Citigroup lobbyist Roger Levy that Weill has to get White House moving on the bill or he would shut down the House-Senate conference. Serious negotiations resume, and a deal is announced at 2:45 a.m. on Oct. 22. Whether Weill made any difference in precipitating a deal is unclear.

Just days after the administration (including the Treasury Department) agrees to support the repeal, Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, the former co-chairman of a major Wall Street investment bank, Goldman Sachs, raises eyebrows by accepting a top job at Citigroup as Weill's chief lieutenant. The previous year, Weill had called Secretary Rubin to give him advance notice of the upcoming merger announcement. When Weill told Rubin he had some important news, the secretary reportedly quipped, "You're buying the government?"
When Bill Clinton gave that pen to Sanford Weill, it symbolized the ending of the twentieth century Democratic Party that had created the New Deal. Although the 1999 law did not repeal all of the banking Act of 1933, retaining the FDIC, it did once again allow banks to enter the securities business, becoming what some term "whole banks."

The repeal of one of the most important pieces of legislation in this nation's history came about as a result of another Clinton "triangulation," the wobbling attempt to find the middle of the road that has somehow managed to pass for a philosophy with many Democrats for over two decades. As former Clinton former campaign Richard Morris once described it, you move a little to the left, a little to the right. I'd love to hear Clinton give that explanation to a foreclosed home owner today.

With the stroke of a pen, Bill Clinton ended an era that stretched back to William Jennings Bryan and Woodrow Wilson and reached fruition with FDR and Harry Truman. As he signed his name, in the whorls and dots of his pen strokes William Jefferson Clinton was also symbolically signing the death warrant of Liberal America and its core belief in the level playing field that had guided the Democratic Party. But it was the gift of the pen to Sanford Weill and its assuming an honored place on the Wall of Me that rubbed salt in the wound.
In his famous First Inaugural Roosevelt asserted:

Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men.
Clinton not only repealed the act Roosevelt had put in place to curb those practices, but presented one of the pens used to sign it to one of those "money changers."

What Hath Clinton Wrought?

What can be said in Clinton's favor is that in 1999 few people anticipated the out-of-control growth of the hedge fund industry and the subprime mortgage market. The New York Times described the new financial world created by the repeal of Glass-Steagall in a June 2007 profile of Goldman Sachs:
While Wall Street still mints money advising companies on mergers and taking them public, real money — staggering money — is made trading and investing capital through a global array of mind-bending products and strategies unimaginable a decade ago.
Curiously, Goldman Sachs head Lloyd Blankfein paints the perfect big picture of what has happened:
We’ve come full circle, because this is exactly what the Rothschilds or J. P. Morgan, the banker were doing in their heyday. What caused an aberration was the Glass Steagall Act.
Blankfein's analysis testifies to the full impact of Bill Clinton's actions, for like many members of the Counterrevolution he sees the New Deal as an aberration and longs for a return to the days J. P. Morgan and other tycoons gave the Gilded Age its nickname. His "aberration" was eliminated not because of the actions of some radical Republican, but because of Bill Clinton. No wonder Goldman Sachs is also a prime contributor to you-know-who.

As is often the case, the story of the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the growth of the subprime mortgage market that is now crumbling around us like a financial house of cards can be best be told by a graph:



If you think of this graph as the level playing field, notice how flat it was before Bill Clinton repealed Glass-Steagall, then notice how steep it has become. Those subprime loans amount to nothing more than an organized ripoff of millions of innocent Americans, with the steepness of the graph illustrating the how far the playing field has tilted.

The result is that all of a sudden people are thinking Glass-Steagall wasn't such a bad idea after all. Robert Kuttner testified before Barney Frank's Committee on Banking and Financial Services in October, evoking the dreaded specter of the Great Depression:
Since repeal of Glass Steagall in 1999, after more than a decade of de facto inroads, super-banks have been able to re-enact the same kinds of structural conflicts of interest that were endemic in the 1920s – lending to speculators, packaging and securitizing credits and then selling them off, wholesale or retail, and extracting fees at every step along the way. And, much of this paper is even more opaque to bank examiners than its counterparts were in the 1920s. Much of it isn’t paper at all, and the whole process is supercharged by computers and automated formulas.
Then there is Dow Jones MarketWatch's Kostigen:
I'm not saying that Glass-Steagall would have made a difference to the evolution of the collateralized debt obligations. But it might have helped identify and isolated the damage.
As Congress continues to investigate the mortgage crisis, more people are wondering whether the repeal of Glass-Steagall was a mistake.

The Future of Your Mortgage

In testimony before Congress on November 8, Federal Reserve Chair Ben Bernanke painted a grim picture of the current crisis and even grimmer picture of the future:

On average from now until the end of next year, nearly 450,000 subprime mortgages per quarter are scheduled to undergo their first interest rate reset. [My emphasis]
According to a December 2006 study by the Center for Responsible Lending, a nonpartisan research and policy organization:
More than 2 million people with subprime loans are facing foreclosure this year and nearly 20 percent of subprime mortgages issued between 2005 and 2006 are projected to fail.
But numbers and testimony and even history mean little to those who suddenly find themselves up against the wall. In every city and town across this country "For Sale" signs are popping up on lawns. Behind each of those signs lies a personal story, a family tragedy, which like the tragedies of the Great Depression, tells of innocent Americans felled by an affliction they never saw coming. Walk any street in this country today--even in affluent neighborhoods--and each time you see one of those signs the hairs on the back of your own neck stand up, because those signs instill the same fear people felt when they walked into a bank in 1932 and found their money gone.

Two million people have found themselves one step away from figuratively being tossed out onto the street, the way millions were in the 1930s. Meanwhile, there are young people starting new lives for whom home ownership is rapidly receding, middle-aged people who finally had scraped together enough for a down payment only to find they can't get a mortgage and older people for whom their home was their retirement and now find its value dropping like George Bush's poll numbers. Finally there are even millions more for whom the collateral damage from the crises promises to cast its shadow over their American Dream.

The International Monetary Fund recently drew the following lessons from various financial crisis:
  • It is difficult to tell at the time whether a financial crisis will have broader economic consequences
  • Regulators often cannot keep up with the pace of financial innovation that may trigger a crisis.
  • Both have characterized what happened after the repeal of Glass-Steagall. It is too bad Bill Clinton did not have their wisdom when he made his decision, but then when you make decisions by triangulating, how much weight do you give such studies?

    And the current crop of politicians? Look closely at their donor lists, which I detailed in the series "Follow the Money." Then wonder why no moderator or other candidate has asked Hillary Clinton if she supports her husband's repeal of Glass-Steagall? Ask the other candidates if they support Bill Clinton's move.

    Meanwhile the signs keep sprouting and the playing field keeps tilting and soon the snow will start to fall, drifting against the signs. How many more people will have lost their homes when the snow melts?

    http://www.progressivehistorians.com/2007/11/bill-clintons-role-in-mortgage-crisis.html

    Well...time to call it a night.  Clearly, I leave you liberals no smarter than I found you.

    < Message edited by lockedaway -- 8/4/2011 2:55:47 PM >

    (in reply to mnottertail)
    Profile   Post #: 117
    RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 2:58:21 PM   
    tazzygirl


    Posts: 37833
    Joined: 10/12/2007
    Status: offline
    quote:

    Then there were the Section 8 people.  Some had menial jobs, some didn't work at all.  Some were "baby-mommas" with multiple children from multiple fathers.  All of the Section 8'ers were women.  What came to the buildings at night to visit them was the FUCKING SCUM OF THE EARTH.  There was violence, drug dealing and police involvement with every Section 8 person I rented to (or bought the house and they were already a tenant) except two.  My average with the Section 8 people is about 9 bad to 1 good. 


    You state you no longer have section 8 apartments, how long ago was your experience? Without knowing the neighborhood you rent in, I would not care to comment.

    quote:

    In addition to the experience I have with that class of people as a landlord comes the education I received being an attorney. You want to sing their fucking praises, baby? Go right ahead. From my experience, however, people tend to "self medicate" and the healthy people receiving entitlements seem to self medicate more than most and certainly a disproportionate amount of their money goes to self medicating than what they earn.

    We should either end HUD housing or make people work for it....doing something. Housing these animals for the sake of housing animals is unfair to everyone............ including them in fact.


    Im on welfare. I self medicate... on advil and an occassional beer at dinner. I have the same problem many athletes get... achilles tendonitis. Go ahead, look it up.

    You "tend" to exaggerate to the extreme. You also tend to be wrong alot.You accepted section 8 because you figured it would be easy income. MY experience with section 8 landlords is that they are lazy, shiftless and could care less about keeping the property updated. You get as much out of it as you put into it.

    And, look at you, referring to people as animals.

    You are fucking useless.

    _____________________________

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    If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

    (in reply to lockedaway)
    Profile   Post #: 118
    RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 3:03:52 PM   
    lockedaway


    Posts: 1720
    Joined: 3/15/2007
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

    quote:

    Then there were the Section 8 people.  Some had menial jobs, some didn't work at all.  Some were "baby-mommas" with multiple children from multiple fathers.  All of the Section 8'ers were women.  What came to the buildings at night to visit them was the FUCKING SCUM OF THE EARTH.  There was violence, drug dealing and police involvement with every Section 8 person I rented to (or bought the house and they were already a tenant) except two.  My average with the Section 8 people is about 9 bad to 1 good. 


    You state you no longer have section 8 apartments, how long ago was your experience? Without knowing the neighborhood you rent in, I would not care to comment.

    quote:

    In addition to the experience I have with that class of people as a landlord comes the education I received being an attorney. You want to sing their fucking praises, baby? Go right ahead. From my experience, however, people tend to "self medicate" and the healthy people receiving entitlements seem to self medicate more than most and certainly a disproportionate amount of their money goes to self medicating than what they earn.

    We should either end HUD housing or make people work for it....doing something. Housing these animals for the sake of housing animals is unfair to everyone............ including them in fact.


    Im on welfare. I self medicate... on advil and an occassional beer at dinner. I have the same problem many athletes get... achilles tendonitis. Go ahead, look it up.

    You "tend" to exaggerate to the extreme. You also tend to be wrong alot.You accepted section 8 because you figured it would be easy income. MY experience with section 8 landlords is that they are lazy, shiftless and could care less about keeping the property updated. You get as much out of it as you put into it.

    And, look at you, referring to people as animals.

    You are fucking useless.


    C'mere puppy. :)  LOLOLOLOL yes...people are often animals, Tazzy.  The mere state of being human amounts to very little in and of itself.  Unshaped clay is.........dirt.

    Now...to answer your question, I have ONE Section 8 tenant.  She was living there when I bought the house in '97.  Now...just recently, I did take a young girl from a drug rehab that has a kid and knows not where the father is.  Her father is a cop and I made him co-sign the lease.

    Now...as between you and me...who is useless?  YOU ARE!! nah, nah na nah nah!!!!!

    OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SUPER POSTSCRIPT!!!!  I'm keeping a list of all of you DUMB SHIT LIBERALS who admit to me that you are on welfare and some other form of assistance.  I have to tell you, I'm getting a big kick out of it.  Let me tell you what I have learned....I have learned that a large percentage of the most outspoken libs on this board are receiving some form of ASSISTANCE and so they are arguing from a position of self interest that, in my opinion, renders everything they say, irrelevant.  What they SHOULD BE saying to guys like me and Heretic and Sanity and Firm and AZBossMan is "thank you for our check, Sirs....we were hungry!!!" 


    < Message edited by lockedaway -- 8/4/2011 3:07:37 PM >

    (in reply to tazzygirl)
    Profile   Post #: 119
    RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. - 8/4/2011 3:06:49 PM   
    mnottertail


    Posts: 60698
    Joined: 11/3/2004
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    Not only a large chunk of extremely pathetic asswipe, since it really doesnt say anything at all contradicting what I pointed out whatsoever (look at the vote again) but perhaps you can use your acute legal (LOLOLOL) mind to suss out what your subprime graph is showing accurately.  It was ramrodded under W and republicans. When everybody knew it was a bad deal, same as the fucking debt cieling asswipe.  Count the votes on that bitch and tell me if Obama would have given them the finger would they still pass it.

    Answer is yes. 


    Yeah, I don't think any more of Clinton than I do of you.  


    _____________________________

    Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


    (in reply to lockedaway)
    Profile   Post #: 120
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