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RE: And the war on wildlife continues - 8/7/2011 8:40:53 AM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Y'all think this has anything to do with that marine biologist (marine mammal reports) being suspended last week for unspecified reasons and not allowed to talk to the press?

More evidence for my theory.

ROFL. Thats a stretch, even for you.

Not at all, wilbur. Did I not say that in the previous thread that it appeared some corporate bigwig called his pet Senator and said "I want this guy to shut up for a bit"? We were only waiting to see why they would do that.

This upcoming vote and associated potential profits generated therein (billions) gives motive.
Method is "campaign contributions".

The fact that the guy is still suspended but they admit it is not for any professional reason but won't say why he is suspended and effectively gagged is very circumstancial.

We have a method and a motive. I've seen people convicted of crimes with only that and some good circumstancial evidence.

Do you have a better idea? I'm listening.
Unlike others, as long as things are civil, you know I will actually listen.

All you have is supposition. None of the links in your chain to establish "method and motive" can be shown to be any more true than aliens got him suspended because he was about to discover where they hide their spaceships.

I never claimed anything more than it being a hypothesis or supposition.

If you want to think aliens had more to do with it than dirty politics, that is your privelege.

We have proof of dirty politics on both sides tho. We don't have proof that aliens even exist. (Billybob the Arkansas pig farmer that was abducted last week notwithstanding)

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 21

RE: And the war on the poor and elderly continues - 8/7/2011 9:27:57 AM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
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So your argument isthat since we have fucked up everything we touch in the name of energy, we should leave no place pristine, including the artic wildlife refuge? All in the name of keeping granny warm? Interesting argument, but stupid. My mom is 88 and I know she doesn't feel that way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Batteries require lead mining and lead smelters

Boatloads of mercury and other toxic metals have to be supplied to the compact fluorescent manufacturers, some how

Windmill farms take up space,and require roads and intrusive measures to put them in place and to maintain them

And so on

People need energy, but there are no perfect solutions. If Shell fucked up Shell shouldl pay the price, but it doesnt mean we can or should stop drilling. Push granny off the cliff basically, by allowing elderly and other vulnerable people to go without the energy that they need

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

You are right, there is definitely wildlife attrition with wind power. On the other hand. The turbines don't kill 250,000 birds in one incident like the Valdez, and seem to affect mammals very little. So what's your point? Or do you have one?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Yes. We should all embrace then new "green" power sources. They just cuddle with wildlife, instead of doing any damage... oh wait... nevermind...

quote:

Federal authorities in the United States are investigating the deaths of at least six golden eagles at the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power’s Pine Tree Wind Project in the Tehachapi Mountains, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said Tuesday.

Raptorpolitics.org story here

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 22

RE: And the war on the poor and elderly continues - 8/7/2011 9:30:57 AM

Jeffff

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Sooner or later the oil will be gone. Before that happens it will be thousands of dollars per barrel.

The sooner we prepare for that, the better off we are.

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(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 23

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 9:50:06 AM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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Jeff, long before oil hits thousands of dollars a barrel, shale and oil sand extraction become economically viable, with dramatic change in who controls the supply.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 24

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 9:54:35 AM

Jeffff

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It's still a finite resource Rich. If you look into fracking I don't think you'd want it in your neighborhood.

For over 100 years we used whale oil for many applications. Just as we were about to run out of whales petroleum was discovered.

We need to be ready for when we run out of petroleum.

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 25

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 10:01:22 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Fracking has nothing to do with extracting oil from shale, thats natural gas recovery

Which natural gas burns very clean, its odd to see leftists working overtime to demonize that resource

And there are hundreds if not thousands of years worth of shale deposits laying around

There is a lot of time to get ready for a gradual reduction in oil availability, so there is absolutely no need to make it prohibitively expensive prematurely

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Post #: 26

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 10:04:14 AM

Jeffff

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I was speaking to Rich. I gave up the thought of an intelligent, open and interesting conversation with you a long time ago.

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(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 27

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 10:09:43 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Drama queen...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I was speaking to Rich. I gave up the thought of an intelligent, open and interesting conversation with you a long time ago.

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 28

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 10:15:06 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
Status: offline

Sanity is right about fracking, Jeff. The extraction methods for shale oil aren't very eco-friendly, either, but until we get the sort of energy breakthrough that takes us into a whole new paradigm, that is what's going to happen.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 29

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 1:44:23 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline

Now is the time to search for viable alternatives, not when we are desperate. Drilling in the arctic will not solve the problem, only delay the inevitable.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 30

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 1:59:07 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
Status: offline

We're a long way from desperate, Sweet, though we have come to place where temporary crises are easily manufactured.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 31

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 2:10:41 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Sanity is right about fracking, Jeff. The extraction methods for shale oil aren't very eco-friendly, either, but until we get the sort of energy breakthrough that takes us into a whole new paradigm, that is what's going to happen.

We don't need a breakthrough. We already have technology quite efficiently replacing fossil fuel energy.
http://www.mlive.com/business/mid-michigan/index.ssf/2011/08/consumers_energy_hampton_towns.html

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 32

RE: And the war on wildlife continues - 8/7/2011 2:13:58 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Um we could continue to fund Islamic terror groups by worrying about an endangered whatever...

Fuck the fish, Oil is the lifeblood of our economy, drill baby drill!

You truly do think these things out before you post.

Congrats!

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 33

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 3:11:19 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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The sun doesn't always shine, Ken, and the wind doesn't always blow. The new plants and projects may get grand press releases when they break ground, but nobody says much at all when phase 1 never performs up to specifications, and phase 2 just sits there in limbo, while the engineers scratch their heads, and the occasional bird bursts into flames when it flies too close to the tower. Wind farms are loud, photovoltaic sites are proving way too sensitive to real world weathering, and both are ugly industrializations of the countryside. That's before we get to the power lines in every direction, needed to collect and distribute the energy that is harnessed.

Yes, Ken. We do need a breakthrough. We need to find ways to generate even more power, not make do with less (as the eco-authoritarian model desires). It could be fusion, it could be dark matter, it could be something that hasn't even occured to the science fiction authors yet. Assuming we don't wipe out modern civilization first, we'll get there. There is a whole lot we haven't figured out yet.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 34

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 3:52:05 PM

DomKen

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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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Yeah rich handwave away the facts thats all you ever do.

The fact is the article I presented documented several different alternative energy facilities in Michigan that were up and running or under construction and one coal fired plant not being built because it wasn't needed.

as to your fantasy about environmentalists did you read this:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/michele-bachmann-light-bulbs-agenda-21?page=1

Do you feel comfortable with how much her beliefs mirror your own?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 35

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 7:15:10 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Let me get this straight, Ken. I respond to your bragging press release about new solar/wind projects underway with a perspective from on the ground where they have already been building such plants for years, where I drive past abandoned/idled sites every day, but I'm the one dismissing facts with a handwave?

Windmills are ugly, and noisy, and both the immediate neighbors, and anybody who likes to look at the mountains, hate them, and are coming together in an organized way to oppose the projects. I linked earlier to a story about the eagle kills reaching a place where the feds can't turn a blind eye any longer, and are starting to investigate.

The solar tower concept, one I thought sounded like a very cool idea, isn't working right, and the rare days they turn it on the intense bright spot creates a hazard for drivers on nearby roads, not to mention the birds that burst into flames when they get too close.

The classic photovoltaic systems lose efficiency at higher temperatures (which is when the demand for power goes to peak levels), and where we've had them up for a couple years around here, the surfaces are degrading more quickly than testing suggested it would, leading to reduced lifespan, and increased costs.

There is another trend developing too. A number of the companies getting these projects going are selling out very quickly, even before construction is complete. Not to big power conglomerates that would know what they are buying, mind you, but to investment groups, and other start-ups who want to be in this hot new field. Fertile ground for fraud.

Please, Ken, you lying pussy, do tell me how your link to Michigan's plans addresses any of that.

As for Michelle, it seems very easy for her to take a simple conservative point, and drag it out into something else entirely. Not that Mother Jones is to be considered anything but an Obama mouthpiece anyway.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 8/7/2011 7:16:52 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 36

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 7:36:28 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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There`s so many alts. that work.Geo-thermal doesn`t need the sun the wind or the waves.Wave and tidal energy remains untapped.Wind and solar are just a small part but will be a part no less.

No one alternate will solve the problems.They aren`t even going to replace fossils either.Not for a long time,if ever.Alt fuels/sources are only going to offset fossil.

There will always be combustion motors.They will never go away.But the fuel that powers them may not always come from fossil.

Bottom line for me and what surprisingly flies right over the head of the grand oil party members, is where and to whom our petro-dollars are going.

That alone, should be reason enough to find alternatives.

It`s not just an economic issue.

It`s also a national security issue,on many levels.

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(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 37

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 9:14:28 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Holy shit. Ken has been out reasonabled by Owner59...

I visited an interesting local museum after they reopened it a year ago (it has since been closed again by budget cuts). One of the upgrades was the addition of a geothermal system to keep the site at a constant temperature. Very nice. As I understand it with this kind of system, once you've drilled down to the constant temperature bedrock, the operating costs are just the pumps to keep the water moving, and the fans to move the air. Bush II had something similar at his Crawford home.

Now the other style of geothermal system, drawing on existing magma heated water within the earth, or pumping surface water close enough to the heat source to capture some of it, seems to work very well, in the locations suited to it. There is the induced seismicity to be considered, but so far, so good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geysers
http://seismo.berkeley.edu/faq/gey_0.html

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 38

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 10:18:15 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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You can heat every building in the cold zone with it.

How much fossil would that displace?

How many less US dollars going to the Saudis?

I don`t support the centralized for profit mega power company model.

Make every building it`s own fortress against the cold,...or heat.Reverse a geo-thermal system and it makes cool air.

How much hot water could be made using GT?

How much more fossil would be saved, to used somewhere else where there is no alternate means of power,like vehicles trucks and cars.

How much electric energy could me gained if every south-west facing roof had photo voltaic panels on them?The sun doesn`t need to shine every day to make a dent in the home`s overall energy consumption.

And we could save a shit load of energy/money making our heated/cooled structures more energy effitiant.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 39

RE: And the war on freedom and individual liberty conti... - 8/7/2011 10:40:41 PM

joether

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Joined: 7/24/2005
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How quickly people forget what happens when Money Trumps Wisdom. Russia and China both have extensive enviromental damage to many parts of their respected countries. They opted for limited enviromental protections and rules in favor of making money. And now, many of their country men suffer daily from the poor planning, thinking, and execution of those projects. You REALLY want to have that crap become the 'norm' in the United States?

Its rather wise to have systems and infrastructure inplace when switching from one system in a company to another. Why would this be a bad idea when switching from one source of energy that is dwindling to more renewable forms of energy? Many countries are getting the jump on such technologies. As such the investment dollars (and high paying jobs) are going to those areas. Yes, it will cost money to initate, but it'll be money well spent, given the long term value of the product.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 40

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