RE: roiting in croydon and penge

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LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:20:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: To be honest in those cases I'm for martial law, they want to loot and riot - let them have a war, tear gas and water hoses in, rubber pellets, let them have it, common criminals. That, in my assessment is exactly what the "politicals" want. They are trying to provoke just such a crackdown. And what would they gain from that apart from injuries? You think standing there and not doing anything is better? Local TV shows a lot of footage, the ones who cause the damage and loot seem to be masked... Easy targets

needlesandpins -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:21:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popularDemand quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: To be honest in those cases I'm for martial law, they want to loot and riot - let them have a war, tear gas and water hoses in, rubber pellets, let them have it, common criminals. That, in my assessment is exactly what the "politicals" want. They are trying to provoke just such a crackdown. Who, in your "assessment" are the "politicals"? pD yep, i'd like to know that too. the people causing all the damage are not politically minded at all. they are just thugs distroying other people's livelyhoods and property. not to mention the multitude of lives they have put at risk. needles

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:24:23 PM)
The various groups who are trying to exploit the tension. the one's who organize the mobs. I'm sorry, but they aren't random. Somebody is coordinating things. Well, not some ONE, but there are people trying to coordinate things, trying to keep up the pressure and spread the unrest. I wouldn't be surprised if at least some from nearly every extremist political flavour weren't involved at some time or other over the last few days.

angelikaJ -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:24:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather you use the tools you're given. angry people are a tool. and how the fuck would you know who is involved? are they resting up at your farm? have you been in touch with any of the rioters? i didn't think so, look i think you're a swell babe and i really like you, but your a fucking toff, you're a snob and you have absolutely fuck all understanding of the people out on those streets. you don't know who they are, how they live, what their hopes or dreams or disappointments are. you have no clue why they are doing what they are doing, or who is behind the violence or why. i do. You are making a guess based upon your own experience. You don't have a crystal ball to know for sure that is the actual reason the rioters are rioting and they didn't begin with a bunch of people who had no political 'agenda'. The problem with mob behavior is that people do things in the safety of mobs that they individually know are morally wrong. And it has nothing to do with politics.

NuevaVida -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:25:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida I disagree. If people don't speak up about what they think is wrong-doing, then what? In the case of these riots: then, nothing. It won't make the slightest bit of difference. Bloke on the dole sees broken shop-window, huge flatscreen TV behind it, police doing nothing - he'll take it. I mean, really. Would he even take any notice of a man standing next to him, telling him about morals - never mind us, here, on this forum, or some shrill-voiced, anteater-faced, public school, old dragon of Home Secretary who he's never heard about because his regular newspaper is only interested in feeding him stories about bonking celebrities with big tits? I really, really don't think these rioters give a flying rat's arse whether the rest of us find their actions morally justifiable, or politically-strategically coherent, or not. I do think it's time we moved on from such tired old moral debates. I wasn't answering with regard to only the rioters. For me it's a fundamental principle - do we speak up when we think there is wrong doing, or do we close our doors and watch sitcoms on TV? It's not about the rioters, it's about holding true to what we (as a general people) think is right. If questions like "why" aren't important to someone, they won't ask them. If they are, then why argue against it?

popularDemand -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:26:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig The various groups who are trying to exploit the tension. the one's who organize the mobs. I'm sorry, but they aren't random. Somebody is coordinating things. Well, not some ONE, but there are people trying to coordinate things, trying to keep up the pressure and spread the unrest. I wouldn't be surprised if at least some from nearly every extremist political flavour weren't involved at some time or other over the last few days. and your sources are? pD

PeonForHer -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:27:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze To be honest in those cases I'm for martial law, they want to loot and riot - let them have a war, tear gas and water hoses in, rubber pellets, let them have it, common criminals. Lady C, none of that applies. It couldn't work. Those strategies, those weapons . . . they're designed for organised actions by organised groups - marches, mass-meetings, and so forth. It takes too long to deploy police with armed rounds - even if they have the trained coppers to do that, which they don't. It takes even longer to deploy water-cannons. Those instruments can't match huge bunches of kids who can disperse in minutes, to riot elsewhere, if they want to. We just don't have the set-up here to counter riots of this nature. Not even the ex-police commanders in Northern Ireland know what the hell to do here.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:31:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: frazzle In answer to VC. No i havent spoke to any of the morons, not the sort of people i associate with. If you seriously believe that those in Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol etc are doing this because of some dead gang member in Tottenham, you are living in cloud cuckoo land. I'm not in cloud cuckoo land, you're just struggling with logical progression. There is a difference between being aware of something and being motivated by it. I was responding to semisweet's bullshit assertion that nobody looting would have heard of him. That is in no way the same as saying that people are looting because of him.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:31:56 PM)
quote: And what would they gain from that apart from injuries? More tension, more dissatisfaction, more people willing to resort to violence, and more people looking to extreme political solutions. It is a general tactic used over and over, all around the world. It's how you build a revolt. And I think there are people trying to do just that, exploiting the present unrest to their advantage. Clearly there is a large well of discontent, people don't just from a mob and go on a rampage for kicks. they have to be angry, very angry. Ask NV, ask her about the mood in LA when she was there. The anger and dissatisfaction is real. Like Peon said, what do you do about that anger. because if nothing is done, it will happen again, only a little more violent.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:35:17 PM)
Well, Hannah right on this thread for one. Some of the analysis in the media. Some common sense, and knowledge of the process.The fact that police are tapping into the blackberry records and network as well.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:39:17 PM)
For example, the following from the telegraph's web page: In Birmingham, the mob split into two groups, using the network of side streets and alleyways to evade police. They appeared to know exactly where to go and where to regroup, hinting that some of their action was co-ordinated today. Coordinated by who? Why?

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:39:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig The various groups who are trying to exploit the tension. the one's who organize the mobs. I'm sorry, but they aren't random. Somebody is coordinating things. Well, not some ONE, but there are people trying to coordinate things, trying to keep up the pressure and spread the unrest. I wouldn't be surprised if at least some from nearly every extremist political flavour weren't involved at some time or other over the last few days. I hope the guys are back soon, but the coordination seems to be mainly through texts and social networks, and from what BBC North shows the organization is "We're going to loot .... Free stuff and a bit of fun!" Amazing though, lots of cameras and some idiots are waving into the cameras before they kick in windows and steal stuff, I'd be tempted to say "Smile and wave for the cam" but oh dear, they are wearing masks... Hey, they behave like terrorists, law one is you don't bargain with terrorists, remember the Iranian Embassy siege? 17 minutes and one of the hostage-takers survived, result! You behave like a terrorist, you get treated like one, simple and straight forward, if they want to have a voice, they can go on TV and talk about the issues, form parties and all that...

Iamsemisweet -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:42:00 PM)
Except that I didn't say that "nobody looting would have heard of him", Vaguely Curious. What I said was "I'll bet there are plenty of people breaking store windows today who never even heard of that guy." You understand the distinction, right? And I would still take that bet.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:43:24 PM)
quote: if they want to have a voice, they can go on TV and talk about the issues, form parties and all that... That's not really very easy to do when you've got nothing and nobody pays attention. Did you forget the link Moonhead posted about the guy complaining they had a peaceful march and got zero coverage?

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:44:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig For example, the following from the telegraph's web page: In Birmingham, the mob split into two groups, using the network of side streets and alleyways to evade police. They appeared to know exactly where to go and where to regroup, hinting that some of their action was co-ordinated today. Coordinated by who? Why? You do know that the Telegraph is also called the Torygraph due to their political leanings and which party does the PM belong to? There might be a slant, plus with mobiles, it's quite easy to guide people around with "avoid ... the rozzers are there"

popularDemand -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:45:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig For example, the following from the telegraph's web page: In Birmingham, the mob split into two groups, using the network of side streets and alleyways to evade police. They appeared to know exactly where to go and where to regroup, hinting that some of their action was co-ordinated today. Coordinated by who? Why? Coordinated by who? any cunt with a phone Why? fun pD

PeonForHer -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:46:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida I wasn't answering with regard to only the rioters. For me it's a fundamental principle - do we speak up when we think there is wrong doing, or do we close our doors and watch sitcoms on TV? I don't think we necessarily do either. What we necessarily do is work out, as fast as we can, how to stop said wrong-doing. If you think that speaking up about the moral failings of these rioters will expedite that - well, I think you're wrong. They don't care about your moral view, or mine, or that of anyone else. If speaking is of any help at all, it should be directed at those who do, or should, care. That is, the government and its agents. These are the people who we pay a lot of money in part to keep us safe.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:47:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Except that I didn't say that "nobody looting would have heard of him." What I said was "I'll bet there are plenty of people breaking store windows today who never even heard of that guy." You understand the distinction, right? And I would still take that bet. You'll forgive me for not caring enough to go back and look up your original wording. But it's still a bullshit assertion. Police brutality is important in underprivileged communities in the UK, particularly when someone dies as a result. It's big news. People will have heard of the guy. I wasn't kidding when I was talking about the general American aversion to news sources as compared to the rest of the world - that wasn't a dig, it was a factual statement. In other countries people keep an eye on the news. Even underprivileged people.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:49:47 PM)
Suit yourselves, I see a potential to exploit the situation, and if I were an anarchist, or Marxist-Leninist, or white supremacist, or fascist, or any one of a dozen other flavour of political fringe groups, I'd be seizing the opportunity. If you don't see it, keep your blinders on. Extremists thrive on discontent. Do you deny that there is a huge amount of anger and discontent among the young urban poor?

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/9/2011 3:51:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze To be honest in those cases I'm for martial law, they want to loot and riot - let them have a war, tear gas and water hoses in, rubber pellets, let them have it, common criminals. Lady C, none of that applies. It couldn't work. Those strategies, those weapons . . . they're designed for organised actions by organised groups - marches, mass-meetings, and so forth. It takes too long to deploy police with armed rounds - even if they have the trained coppers to do that, which they don't. It takes even longer to deploy water-cannons. Those instruments can't match huge bunches of kids who can disperse in minutes, to riot elsewhere, if they want to. We just don't have the set-up here to counter riots of this nature. Not even the ex-police commanders in Northern Ireland know what the hell to do here. OK, I just remember that in Germany they had the Chaos days in the late 80's, punks and anarchists gathering in a town and wrecking havoc - well that was what they planned but the cops had the water cannons and tear gas ready and people were flying through the air. Interesting enough a good report from Manchester, most of the shop owners said just pure greed, and they seem to have organized vehicles, so not just shops being looted by your common track bottomed scum, but actually cars pulling up, being loaded with looted goods and driving off... For some odd reason I don't think those are political...

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